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China vs. the world

hambonehambone Registered User
edited July 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Over the last few months, I've been seeing a trend in the news:

Senator Wants Congressional Hearing on Chinese Toy Imports

US says importer must recall Chinese tires

Wider distribution of tainted Chinese toothpaste found

FDA Halts Imports of Farmed Fish From China

The Growing Dangers of the China Trade

Chinese cars perform horribly in crash tests

Not to mention the tainted pet food scare a couple months ago.

Are these the inevitable growing pains of skyrocketing economy, or are they symptoms of an inherently flawed system? Is it just a coincidence that all of these things are happening right now, and only in China as opposed to similarly emerging economies?

Part of me also wonders if maybe the US government is giving Chinese imports special attention in order to equalize the huge trade gap or stall the growth of our #1 competitor. I wouldn't be too surprised if we were using stories like this to take some of the attention away from our farm subsidies and steel protections.

One thing's for sure: China won't be able to build a sustainable market economy if it only exports inferior goods.

Just a bunch of intoxicated pigeons.
hambone on
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Posts

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I believe China has retaliated within the last month finding fault with imports from America.

    Senator Dole has a strong stance against trade with China but I haven't heard a peep from her in the last few months.

    emnmnme on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    You forgot another option; China is actively trying to attack America through the export of purposely dangerous goods.

    Evander on
  • Pants ManPants Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Evander wrote: »
    You forgot another option; China is actively trying to attack America through the export of purposely dangerous goods.

    OH NO WE'VE PLAYED RIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS!! DAMN YOU CARNY FOLK AND YOUR DISTRIBUTION OF CRAPPY CHINESE TOYS



    naw, i don't think China makes ONLY crappy merchandise, but most of it isn't likely to be up the standards that the US is used to. and it's not like this kind of thing hasn't happened before, recalls of Chinese products ain't exactly a new thing

    Pants Man on
    "okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Evander wrote: »
    You forgot another option; China is actively trying to attack America through the export of purposely dangerous goods.

    Entropy?

    Couscous on
  • hambonehambone Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Pants Man wrote: »
    and it's not like this kind of thing hasn't happened before, recalls of Chinese products ain't exactly a new thing

    The thing that makes this special is that these recalls and import bans are spread throughout several different types of products, they're all happening at once, and they're making high-profile headlines.
    but most of it isn't likely to be up the standards that the US is used to.

    This isn't a case of US consumers being picky. These recalls are due to major health and safety issues.

    hambone on
    Just a bunch of intoxicated pigeons.
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    hambone wrote: »
    Pants Man wrote: »
    and it's not like this kind of thing hasn't happened before, recalls of Chinese products ain't exactly a new thing

    The thing that makes this special is that these recalls and import bans are spread throughout several different types of products, they're all happening at once, and they're making high-profile headlines.

    Some of it is quite dubious too. Apparently they concluded that the pet food tainted was likely on purpose to increase the amount of protein content on the label

    nexuscrawler on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Oh, I'm not saying that I believe it, just that it IS a possibility.



    Personally, I think it's a combination of the lower QA standards that has always been present in Chinese manufacturing, and a bit of coincidence that all of these extremely flawed products were found all at once.



    It would be interesting to see the results, should this cause some kind of groupthink that Chinese manufacturing is inherently falwed, in regards to whether or not US companies that outsource manufacturing to CHina move their plants elsewhere.

    Evander on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I think the real trouble is we're importing so much stuff rom China these days our standards are slipping

    nexuscrawler on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I think the real trouble is we're importing so much stuff rom China these days our standards are slipping

    Are we really importing that much more from China this year, as opposed to last year?

    QA on outsourced manufacturing, especially in a country with different standards and lower pay, isn't the same as QA in America. I do not claim to be extremely familiar with all of this, but my assumption is that while QA likely takes place in the factory itself to some degree, there is relatively little QA done on American shores, after importation. Likely, American QA folks look at one or two batches, and then okay the rest based on that. This leaves a lot of room for error.

    Evander on
  • hambonehambone Registered User
    edited June 2007
    It's true. I think the Time article I posted up there talks a bit about how the FDA can't keep up with the flood of imports. They have to wait until someone gets injured or dies before they can justify committing resources to regulation.

    edit: here's an interesting NYTimes article about the FDA trying to trace the source of poisoned drugs back to a Chinese factory

    FDA tracked poisoned drugs, but trail went cold in China

    hambone on
    Just a bunch of intoxicated pigeons.
  • urbmanurbman Registered User
    edited June 2007
    I think if China economy starts to really get going it will be good for america.

    Look at our history, we really have only had a good economy while we had a major world competitor.

    urbman on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    urbman wrote: »
    I think if China economy starts to really get going it will be good for america.

    Look at our history, we really have only had a good economy while we had a major world competitor.

    Depends on our education though.

    The whole "Dumbing down of America" thing can't be that good.

    That said, competition may -force- us to get education going full speed.

    But I expect we'll be lagging, and China's not going to waste its chance to pull ahead.

    It would be really, horribly, insanely difficult to beat a country that much bigger if its education level caught up.

    Incenjucar on
  • urbmanurbman Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Yea well we are pretty fucked in the education precess. Basically the few smart people breed more smart people and advance well in our system and the huge population of dumb people breed and dont try to become any better than their parents and the smart people dont give two shits to try to help.

    urbman on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    China has poor manufacturing quality but low manufacturing prices.

    Their quality is getting better over time though.

    Al_wat on
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  • hambonehambone Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Al_wat wrote: »
    Their quality is getting better over time though.

    That's not being reflected in the media, if that's even the case.

    hambone on
    Just a bunch of intoxicated pigeons.
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Al_wat wrote: »
    China has poor manufacturing quality but low manufacturing prices.

    Their quality is getting better over time though.

    Slave labor. Get get what you pay for.

    nexuscrawler on
  • urbmanurbman Registered User
    edited June 2007
    So anyone think China will ever pick a real fight with us? They might have a chance at winning, look at the numbers.

    urbman on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I should say that their quality is getting better very slowly.

    From personal experience, I know most manufacturers around southern Ontario are terrified of China although the gap in quality is wide enough that they are still in business.

    Al_wat on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    urbman wrote: »
    Yea well we are pretty fucked in the education precess. Basically the few smart people breed more smart people and advance well in our system and the huge population of dumb people breed and dont try to become any better than their parents and the smart people dont give two shits to try to help.

    Also the smart people don't breed that much, which is part of -many- problems.

    Incenjucar on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited June 2007
    Poor quality products? Must a plan to destroy America.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    We did fight the Chinese in the Korean War. America and South Korea were finally making progress north when 280, 000 Chinese troops surged over the Korean border. We were friends in WW2 and then, bam, less than a decade later and we're shooting at each other.

    emnmnme on
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2007
    Japanese manufacturing was considered junk in the fifties*. Pretty sure its just a function of a modernising economy. There isn't much in the way of legal protection for anything in the free trade zones, apart from the recent move to green it up a bit. And even that is pretty ineffectual, I remember reading a feature article in The Weekend Australian Magazine about a city there specialising in toy manufacture. The place is in pretty awful condition because of waste plastics, dyes, and other chemicals. Internal and external pressure will eventually raise the standards, its just a pity that takes so long.



    *I know this from watching Back to the Future >.>

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    urbman wrote: »
    Yea well we are pretty fucked in the education precess. Basically the few smart people breed more smart people and advance well in our system and the huge population of dumb people breed and dont try to become any better than their parents and the smart people dont give two shits to try to help.

    Also the smart people don't breed that much, which is part of -many- problems.

    Oh, fuck that social darwinism crap. Scads of smart people come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Like height, IQ trends towards an average across generations and is very heavily affected by external factors such as training and nutrition. We're not breeding stupid people, just raising them >_<

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    By smart I really meant educated or so hard working as to be self-educated or equivalent.

    I've known too many supergeniuses who work at McDonalds to consider them.

    You scientists need to get knocked up more.

    Incenjucar on
  • MuttnikMuttnik Registered User
    edited June 2007
    In one of my east asian history classes I was fortunate enough to meet someone who was an american management advisor to a Japanese company in the 50's, and pretty much what you said about Japanese goods in the 50's is true, Cat.

    Then they went balls out on quality and turned that mutha up. The focus on high quality really turned their shit around.

    Muttnik on
    Sentry wrote: »
    Wow... I think the ignorance of American's is vastly underestimated.
    Shinto wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. It's fun to feel like you're better than other people.
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Muttnik wrote: »
    In one of my east asian history classes I was fortunate enough to meet someone who was an american management advisor to a Japanese company in the 50's, and pretty much what you said about Japanese goods in the 50's is true, Cat.

    Then they went balls out on quality and turned that mutha up. The focus on high quality really turned their shit around.

    Now imagine if Japan was the 3rd largest country in the world instead of 62nd.

    Incenjucar on
  • MuttnikMuttnik Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Do I.....

    Do I have to?

    Muttnik on
    Sentry wrote: »
    Wow... I think the ignorance of American's is vastly underestimated.
    Shinto wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. It's fun to feel like you're better than other people.
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Muttnik wrote: »
    Do I.....

    Do I have to?

    It's okay to cry.

    Incenjucar on
  • itylusitylus Registered User
    edited June 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    We did fight the Chinese in the Korean War. America and South Korea were finally making progress north when 280, 000 Chinese troops surged over the Korean border. We were friends in WW2 and then, bam, less than a decade later and we're shooting at each other.

    In the second world war the US supported Chiang Kai-Shek and the Nationalists, who lost the civil war against the Communists, hence the change in allegiances.

    itylus on
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited June 2007
    urbman wrote: »
    So anyone think China will ever pick a real fight with us? They might have a chance at winning, look at the numbers.
    I'll look at the numbers, particularly the military spending numbers.
    China just tripled theirs and they still don't come close, plus the Navy and the Air Force aren't that busy.

    Picardathon on
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited June 2007
    itylus wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    We did fight the Chinese in the Korean War. America and South Korea were finally making progress north when 280, 000 Chinese troops surged over the Korean border. We were friends in WW2 and then, bam, less than a decade later and we're shooting at each other.

    In the second world war the US supported Chiang Kai-Shek and the Nationalists, who lost the civil war against the Communists, hence the change in allegiances.
    The communists and the Kuomnitang put their differences aside to fight the Japanese in WWII.
    The US was sending most of their aid to the nationalists (who were leaving most of the fighting to the communists, big mistake), but it isn't like they were fighting communism and the Japanese at the same time.

    Picardathon on
  • SavantSavant Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    urbman wrote: »
    So anyone think China will ever pick a real fight with us? They might have a chance at winning, look at the numbers.
    I'll look at the numbers, particularly the military spending numbers.
    China just tripled theirs and they still don't come close, plus the Navy and the Air Force aren't that busy.

    There's also the problem of where they would pick a fight with us, and how likely it would be for nukes to enter the equation. Biggest threat they could represent without nukes would be somewhere like Korea or maybe Southeast Asia. But once you get into Taiwan and Japan and even moreso US holdings then they would have to deal with naval supremacy and could not get away with numbers.

    This doesn't seem like it would be a very plausible short term proposition without something else big happening first though.

    Savant on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    urbman wrote: »
    So anyone think China will ever pick a real fight with us? They might have a chance at winning, look at the numbers.
    I'll look at the numbers, particularly the military spending numbers.
    China just tripled theirs and they still don't come close, plus the Navy and the Air Force aren't that busy.
    China would have a chance (though not much of one) if we were to invade them.

    We'd kick their ass if they were to try to project their force anywhere, though.

    Given that we're both nuclear powers, though, I don't see us getting into a conventional war with each other anytime soon, though China will be kicking our asses economically in the next couple of decades. We should really get on top of the environment thing now, so we can get them to do the same before they're any further along in industrialization.

    Thanatos on
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited June 2007
    The US would have crushing air superiority.
    Israel showed that all you need is air supreriority and you can kick the crap out of a stronger opponent (Six Day War)

    Picardathon on
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Also, neither the US nor China wants this war.
    Economic friction could lead to trade barriers, but not war.

    Picardathon on
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    urbman wrote: »
    So anyone think China will ever pick a real fight with us? They might have a chance at winning, look at the numbers.
    I'll look at the numbers, particularly the military spending numbers.
    China just tripled theirs and they still don't come close, plus the Navy and the Air Force aren't that busy.

    That may be true, but America's economy can't sustain a prolonged conflict. They are already in considerable debt from the Iraq occupation and a war with China will simply bankrupt the country.

    High quality equipment has the double edge of being difficult to maintain.

    DanHibiki on
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I doubt that there will be an all-out war between the USA and China within our lifetimes (although shit will change a lot over that time span).

    What is more likely is some kind of a spat over Taiwan.

    Al_wat on
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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    urbman wrote: »
    So anyone think China will ever pick a real fight with us? They might have a chance at winning, look at the numbers.
    I'll look at the numbers, particularly the military spending numbers.
    China just tripled theirs and they still don't come close, plus the Navy and the Air Force aren't that busy.
    That may be true, but America's economy can't sustain a prolonged conflict. They are already in considerable debt from the Iraq occupation and a war with China will simply bankrupt the country.

    High quality equipment has the double edge of being difficult to maintain.
    China's economy is completely dependent upon ours. If we just decided not to honor our debts that we sold to them, they'd be totally fucked, economically.

    Thanatos on
  • darklite_xdarklite_x I'm not an r-tard... Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    A growing Chinese economy can only help us. It might hurt us in the short-term, but with a growing economy you also get a growing middle class which in turn leads to a more educated populace. While they might not all become Ivy league graduates, the population will eventually get to a point where they're smart enough to spot the flaws in their communist system and either rehaul their system or make a move towards democracy.

    darklite_x on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    By smart I really meant educated or so hard working as to be self-educated or equivalent.

    I've known too many supergeniuses who work at McDonalds to consider them.

    You scientists need to get knocked up more.

    The problem is it's harder to NOT get pregnant then it is to GET pregnant. Hence, the stupid breed faster.

    shryke on
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