[WoW] Warriors: L2Tank Here

MayGodHaveMercy

I've been going around the world (PTR) tanking elites. Me and a ret pally two-manned Durn like he was a level 20-mob. Didn't even need a heal, as Judgment was enough to keep me up, no problem.

Prot.

fairweather

What little I've gotten to try of Prot in beta has been fun. I only ever lose a sliver of health when fighting a single mob, and my shield slams have about doubled in damage (topping out a bit under 1.8k I think, got a 1337 crit once though ).

Sword and Board procs are great and shockwave is very handy for grabbing multiple targets while my rogue friend tears them to shreds.

I just wish I could play on the beta servers without it crashing or lagging all the time so I can get a better feel for the changes.

edit:

Also, one of the first green quest reward shields has a ton more armor than my current shield and it looks like two axe heads wielded together

Septus

I've got the same problem identifying sword and board procs as I do bloodsurge, or even more of a problem, since I'm busy using more skills as prot.

MayGodHaveMercy

Septus wrote: »

I've got the same problem identifying sword and board procs as I do bloodsurge, or even more of a problem, since I'm busy using more skills as prot.

The built-in Floating Combat Text is usually enough. I have missed it on occasion, but I usually see <Sword and Board> floating up my screen. Same with <Slam!> for Bloodsurge (I love that the actual buff is called "Slam!"). As far as S&B, it's sometimes easier to just keep an eye on the Shield Slam icon. If it resets from a 4 second cooldown to a single GCD, it's probably up.

Septus

I often have too much text popping up and don't notice it, or I'm busy watching my cooldowns.

Wavechaser

Septus wrote: »

I often have too much text popping up and don't notice it, or I'm busy watching my cooldowns.

Yeah, the "Slam!" text comes up for about .2 seconds in the middle of a stream of other numbers so it's almost impossible to make it out from the other text. I basically just started watching for Bloodthirst crits so I could followup with slam. I wish the default UI would let you scale certain text options. Like for reactive abilities I would like huuuuge text to pop out at me.

fairweather

I think there's also a spell animation that pops up around your character for sword and board. I think it's a set of shields rotating around your character (same as holy shield possibly?).

MayGodHaveMercy

Septus wrote: »

I often have too much text popping up and don't notice it, or I'm busy watching my cooldowns.

Yeah, it does get flooded. I just watch for it, amongst the torrent.

Also, Mik's Scrolling Battle Text has the option to make reactive abilities extremely obvious, so once 3.0 goes live, and MSBT get's updated, you will have your wish, Chaser.

Oh and holy hell the new Devastate animation is sex.

fairweather wrote: »

I think there's also a spell animation that pops up around your character for sword and board. I think it's a set of shields rotating around your character (same as holy shield possibly?).

This is also true. I had forgotten.

--- Actually, wait. I think that's the Damage Reflect on Block that does that animation... I'm not 100% sure.

MayGodHaveMercy

Ghostcrawler wrote:

I'll explain a little bit of our logic here. You might disagree at any step along the way, which would break the chain, but at least you might understand where we're coming from.

-- Being able to use a second two-hander will be too much of a dps increase. It needs some kind of penalty, but not a penalty so stiff that it makes the talent undesirable.
-- A damage penalty on Titan's Grip doesn't feel right. It is essentially turning your two-handed weapons into one-handed weapons. Other that the stat boosts from the two-hander, it doesn't feel like a net gain.
-- A haste penalty on Titan's Grip does bad things to the Fury tree. Two-handed weapons are already slow, and to some extent, Fury is dependent on getting quick hits it.
-- Hit on the other hand, is consistent with the normal penalty for dual-wielding. It is also something you can stack to try and minimize the penalty, even at lower levels. However, if you're stacking more hit than than another warrior, you are giving up other stats, which brings the damage down to what we feel is a safer level (i.e. a net increase for taking the talent, but not an OP one).

It's a cool idea overall, but one that's hard to balance. Unlike many talents, there isn't a lot of granularity to adjust its power. You can't say "You can wield one two-handed weapon and 85% of a second two-handed weapon." You can make the second one hit for 85% damage, but as I suggested above, that starts to feel like you might be better off just looking for two one-handed weapons with more dps on them.

Hope that clears up the intent a little. If we find warriors with Titan's Grip are not able to do reasnable dps (if the talent isn't justified) then we'll adjust the numbers.

Well, regardless of how they currently feel about it, missing a bunch on yellow attacks just doesn't sound fun. It sounds frustrating.

Wavechaser

It is, with my paltry 127 hit rating (that's my pve gear to haha), I miss specials with TG a LOT. I mean, i'm still a monster and can kill like multiple like-leveled elites at the same time, so whatever, i'm not sure if I'm complaining here or not.

MayGodHaveMercy

Wavechaser wrote: »

It is, with my paltry 127 hit rating (that's my pve gear to haha), I miss specials with TG a LOT. I mean, i'm still a monster and can kill like multiple like-leveled elites at the same time, so whatever, i'm not sure if I'm complaining here or not.

I don't know... it's really wierd...

I'm seeing tons of hard numbers from smart folks, saying that TG, with no penalty, was a very minor DPS increase. I've seen a fair amount of others saying that it needed a nerf. I tend to believe the numbers, because there's no useable data in "TG is so OP." Regardless, it looks like 51 pts into Arms with Slamspam is top right now, from what I'm seeing, with 20/41 Devaspam being up there as well.

Septus

MayGodHaveMercy wrote: »

Wavechaser wrote: »

It is, with my paltry 127 hit rating (that's my pve gear to haha), I miss specials with TG a LOT. I mean, i'm still a monster and can kill like multiple like-leveled elites at the same time, so whatever, i'm not sure if I'm complaining here or not.

I don't know... it's really wierd...

I'm seeing tons of hard numbers from smart folks, saying that TG, with no penalty, was a very minor DPS increase.

Do you know where I could find the numbers? It really seems like the un-penalized would be a pretty large dps buff for yellow attacks(slam goes from shitty to awesome) and at least on the lower-end of gear, the white damage increase would be large.

MayGodHaveMercy

Septus wrote: »

MayGodHaveMercy wrote: »

Wavechaser wrote: »

It is, with my paltry 127 hit rating (that's my pve gear to haha), I miss specials with TG a LOT. I mean, i'm still a monster and can kill like multiple like-leveled elites at the same time, so whatever, i'm not sure if I'm complaining here or not.

I don't know... it's really wierd...

I'm seeing tons of hard numbers from smart folks, saying that TG, with no penalty, was a very minor DPS increase.

Do you know where I could find the numbers? It really seems like the un-penalized would be a pretty large dps buff for yellow attacks(slam goes from shitty to awesome) and at least on the lower-end of gear, the white damage increase would be large.

I copied a huge post on past and present iterations of TG on the last page, near the bottom. It's spoilered.

MayGodHaveMercy wrote: »

I swear to Christ, Voxx from Elitist Jerks blows my mind.

Spoilered for Wall o' Text

Voxx wrote:

Here are your numbers.

Honestly, as it stands now in the "end game gear" that you predict will make Titan's Grip so outscale anything else, white dps makes up about 30% of your total damage. That's because Heroic Strike converts what would be a white hit, to a yellow hit. If you take a look at Elitist Jerks forums then you'll see some rather extensive math proving that Heroic Strike with Titan's Grip is actually EFFICIENT, contrary to popular belief.

Now, with this counterbalance Blizzard has directly reduced our chance to hit with about 70% of our damage by 15%.

You say that getting the extra hit will also affect white damage? Yes, indeed it will, but guess what... so would Attack Power and Crit... stats that we're having to sacrifice so we can get hit. The fact that we gain benefits from +hit to yellow and white damage now doesn't change the fact that we're losing other stats for the "benefit".

As was pointed out earlier the "30% white dps increase" that's been thrown around is flat out wrong. It's a 30% dps increase on the BASE weapon damage. At high end gear levels (again the point in which Titan's Grip was supposed to be overpowered) Attack Power makes up the vast majority of your weapon damage hits.

Take a look at this:

The Angry Dead, 1hander, 156.6 dps, 2.5 speed, 391.5 average weapon damage
The Jawbone, 2hander, 203.6 dps, 3.6 speed, 733 average weapon damage


@ 1000 AP:
1h = 228 dps
2h = 275 dps

Total TG increase = 47 dps.

@ 3500 AP:
1h = 406.6 dps
2h = 453.6 dps

Total TG increase = 47 dps.

@ 7000 AP:
1h = 656.6 dps
2h = 703.6 dps

Total TG increase = 47 dps.

Now... can you see the pattern yet? No matter how much AP you have, the dps increase from TG is ONLY the dps difference in base weapon damage of the two weapons. As a matter of fact the more your AP scales, the less of a % benefit you see from Titan's Grip. Explain and justify the "insane" scaling issues of this 51 point talent.


If you want I can do the math for you and show how much % dps increase that oh-so-mighty 47 dps is at each level.

@1000 AP:
20.6% white dps increase.

@3500 AP:
11.6% white dps increase.

@7000 AP:
7.1% white dps increase.

Considering we had more than 1000 AP unbuffed at level 60... 20.6% dps increase clearly isn't what we get from TG.

Considering we have 3500 AP raid buffed (at high end levels) at 70, 11.6% dps increase clearly isn't what we get from TG.

As a matter of fact, it looks like we just might get about 7000 AP raid buffed in WotLK. That brings the mighty mighty Titan's Grip to an astounding 7.1% white dps increase. That's very nearly one fifth of what you make it out to be. Shocking, I know.

Let's make a direct comparison of the special attacks that were becoming overpowered with Titan's Grip:

Using the same weapons as before, the 15% hit penalty directly baked in as a 15% dps loss in going from the 1h to 2h, and 7000 AP we have...

Slam: (250 +damage)
1h: 1891.5 damage.
2h: 2365.6 damage.
Increase = 474.1 damage. [ 25.1% ]

Whirlwind: (weapon damage)*
1h: 2586.2 damage.
2h: 3291.5 damage.
Increase = 705.3 damage. [ 27.3% ]

Overpower: (weapon damage)
1h: 1591.5 damage.
2h: 2025.6 damage.
Increase = 434.1 damage. [ 27.3% ]

Heroic Strike: (495 +damage)
1h: 2136.5 damage.
2h: 2573.8 damage.
Increase = 437.3 damage. [ 20% ]


*For Whirlwind I took the normalized damage output of the Mainhand weapon and duplicated it into the offhand using a 62.5% offhand penalty (assuming you have 5/5 DW spec)

At first glance, it appears to be such a HUGE dps increase on our specials! I mean, 20+% across the board really is huge.

However, if we extrapolate that into the portion of our dps that each of these abilities make up...

Whirlwind - 10% (and I'm being rather generous here)
Slam - 8.3% (assuming 1/3 chance of Bloodsurge procs and Bloodthirst is roughly 25%)
Heroic Strike - 25%

So we gained... 2.73% dps from the massive increase in Whirlwind damage, 2.1% dps increase from Slam, and 5% increase from Heroic Strike.

This puts our grand total dps increase from Titan's Grip at....

*drumroll*


16.93%!

We've gained less of an increase in dps from our 51 point talent than we do from our 31 point talent...

Do you see where the problem is yet?

I didn't even take into account the fact that Bloodthirst isn't going to get anywhere NEAR a 15% increase in damage from the extra stats on a 2h weapon. So as a matter of fact, taking the hit penalty into consideration, we LOSE damage on Bloodthirst.

Why don't we take a look at that now:

AP from the two 1h weapons: 172
AP from the two 2h weapons: 404
Gain = 232 AP.

@7000 AP + weapon contribution

Bloodthirst:
1h = 3227.4
2h = 3331.8

Now take into consideration the fact that 15% of our Bloodthirsts will miss (and yes before you mention Bloodthirst not requiring a weapon, Bloodthirst has been fixed to require a weapon)

1h = 3227.4
2h = 2832

We actually LOSE Bloodthirst damage by taking Titan's Grip. As a matter of fact we lose 395.4 damage from Bloodthirst, that's a total of 12.3% LOSS.

Why don't we roll that into the DPS "increase" we get from Titan's Grip. Bloodthirst is roughly 25% of our total damage output, and a 12.3% decrease in that is respectively 3.1%.

So instead of our 16.93% dps increase, we now have a 13.83% dps increase.

Here it is, the conclusion of all this math:

Our 51 point talent is worth almost half the value of our 31 point talent.

Here's modified numbers to account for no penalty(no -15% hit on specials) on Titan's Grip:

Slam: (250 +damage)
1h: 1891.5 damage.
2h: 2783.1 damage.
Increase = 891.6 damage. [ 47.1% ]

Whirlwind: (weapon damage)*
1h: 2586.2 damage.
2h: 3872.5 damage.
Increase = 1286.3 damage. [ 49.7% ]

Overpower: (weapon damage)
1h: 1591.5 damage.
2h: 2383.1 damage.
Increase = 791.6 damage. [ 49.7% ]

Heroic Strike: (495 +damage)
1h: 2136.5 damage.
2h: 3028 damage.
Increase = 891.5 damage. [ 41.7% ]

Using the same proportions of dps contribution as before we have a total increase in dps of:
10% Whirlwind gives 4.97% dps.
25% Heroic Strike gives 10.43% dps.
8.3% Slam gives 3.91% dps.

Grand Total increase (including the 7.1% white dps increase at 7000 AP) = 26.41% dps increase.

That's funny, about how much of our dps did I say came from Bloodthirst? It was roughly 25% am I right? So, the old Titan's Grip, pre-nerf, gave about 5.6% more dps contribution than Bloodthirst. That means that the old Titan's Grip without a counterbalance was actually BETTER than our 31 point talent.

I hope I put enough emphasis on that.

Now take a look at Titan's Grip again with a hopefully altered perspective and tell me that this is justified.

Titan's Grip does NOT scale well. It is, like Rampage before it, a static increase in dps. It's percentage contribution actually scales inversely with Attack Power. At high levels of attack power, the amount of contribution it provides is less and less, as I showed in my math. If Titan's Grip scaled then it would mean at 'x' AP it would yield a 10% increase in dps, and at 'y' AP it would yield a 10% + 'z' increase in dps. This is in fact the opposite of what happens. When AP levels increase, the amount of dps gained from Titan's Grip is a lower percentage of your dps. I proved this in my earlier post. The fact that Titan's Grip adds 47 white dps at 0 AP and 47 white dps at 7000 AP shows that Titan's Grip does not scale. It increases your special attack hits damage yes, but the percentage it increases your damage decreases as Attack Power inflates.

Even assuming that the average fury warrior has 13% hit on his gear, which by the way is about on par with Sunwell items, that still leaves you with a massive 11% miss chance on your special abilities. I didn't assume that the fury warriors take no hit rating, I assumed that the amount of miss chance left at the end was 15%. That's a huge difference. The difference between what I assumed (15% miss) and what the average fury warrior is going to see when 3.0.1 hits live (~11% miss) is not nearly as huge as you try to make it seem.

The hit penalty is not a justified way to counterbalance Titan's Grip. I haven't said that Titan's Grip wasn't too good in it's unbalanced implementation. Hell I haven't even said that the 15% penalty will go live and that 15% is just too much of a number to go live, I highly doubt that it will go live. What I have proved however is that the reasons that have been stated claiming that Titan's Grip is an overpowered talent are blatantly misguided.

Titan's Grip is not a spec, yes, but for instance a 21/50/0 spec in comparison to a 20/51/0 spec, the differentiation is going to be in having Titan's Grip or not. That would (most probably) be called a "Titan's Grip spec". The fact that taking our penultimate 51 point talent reduces the damage output of one of our abilities by a substantial amount is something that should seriously be considered. The two roll system for special attacks, as I pointed out, means that the hit penalty not only affects raw hit, but also crit as well. As a matter of fact the extent to which it affects crit is not small, not small at all. Even with only 10% miss chance on specials (which means you have 12% hit on your gear alone, and the Precision talent maxed out) and 40% buffed crit would leave you with an attack table like this:

90-100 Miss
0-90 Hit

of which:

36-100 Hit
0-36 Crit

That's a 4% crit penalty build in to the talent. Crit directly affects damage output in a rather significant way, lower Flurry uptime, lower Deep Wounds damage, the fact our specials get a 2.1x crit multiplier etc.

How is this not a severe drawback?

Link to thread... (Link to pg. 5, since I'm in the middle of reading it.)

815165

Bloodthirst has been fixed to require a weapon

Gutrot won't be able to hit 80.

Mgcw

815165 wrote: »

Bloodthirst has been fixed to require a weapon

Gutrot won't be able to hit 80.

Man, what, fixed? I hate when they say "fix" for shit like this. It was clearly intended to not have a weapon, otherwise you would have "fixed" it 3 fucking years ago. I didn't see this post btw, link?

Septus

Uh, all those calculations are done assuming the 15% hit loss? He says he baked that in, so that's not very helpful for identifying the dps increase unpenalized.

MayGodHaveMercy

Did some testing. I found a dummy that's not inflating crit chance for whatever reason, though I'm not sure about armor. 2 Minutes for each test. No Bladestorm/Recklessness



In order of appearance -

12/8/41 - Devastate/HS build 1033.6 DPS

51/10/0 - Slam Spam Build. Spammed Slam like it was steady shot. 1101.2 DPS

51/10/0 - Same build - Slam Spam + Sudden Death when available. 957.3 DPS

MayGodHaveMercy

Septus wrote: »

Uh, all those calculations are done assuming the 15% hit loss? He says he baked that in, so that's not very helpful for identifying the dps increase unpenalized.

Read the whole thing.


Here's modified numbers to account for no penalty(no -15% hit on specials) on Titan's Grip:

Slam: (250 +damage)
1h: 1891.5 damage.
2h: 2783.1 damage.
Increase = 891.6 damage. [ 47.1% ]

Whirlwind: (weapon damage)*
1h: 2586.2 damage.
2h: 3872.5 damage.
Increase = 1286.3 damage. [ 49.7% ]

Overpower: (weapon damage)
1h: 1591.5 damage.
2h: 2383.1 damage.
Increase = 791.6 damage. [ 49.7% ]

Heroic Strike: (495 +damage)
1h: 2136.5 damage.
2h: 3028 damage.
Increase = 891.5 damage. [ 41.7% ]

Using the same proportions of dps contribution as before we have a total increase in dps of:
10% Whirlwind gives 4.97% dps.
25% Heroic Strike gives 10.43% dps.
8.3% Slam gives 3.91% dps.

Grand Total increase (including the 7.1% white dps increase at 7000 AP) = 26.41% dps increase.

That's funny, about how much of our dps did I say came from Bloodthirst? It was roughly 25% am I right? So, the old Titan's Grip, pre-nerf, gave about 5.6% more dps contribution than Bloodthirst. That means that the old Titan's Grip without a counterbalance was actually BETTER than our 31 point talent.

I hope I put enough emphasis on that.


EDIT: He did actually show it being a significant DPS increase pre-nerf. So I take that back. He's just comparing it to other talents in terms of DPS Increase per talent points spent.

815165

Mgcw wrote: »

815165 wrote: »

Bloodthirst has been fixed to require a weapon

Gutrot won't be able to hit 80.

Man, what, fixed? I hate when they say "fix" for shit like this. It was clearly intended to not have a weapon, otherwise you would have "fixed" it 3 fucking years ago. I didn't see this post btw, link?

Quoting Voxx in MayGodHaveMercy's post, it isn't from a blue post.

Septus

His original 16% number is with the 15% missrate baked in, and taking that out, it looks like 19%, on top of what is a 7% increase to white damage(at high gear levels, so maybe more like 9% earlier on), plus perhaps another 2% from 2% extra crit you could get on the two weapons.

MayGodHaveMercy

Septus wrote: »

His original 16% number is with the 15% missrate baked in, and taking that out, it looks like 19%, on top of what is a 7% increase to white damage(at high gear levels, so maybe more like 9% earlier on), plus perhaps another 2% from 2% extra crit you could get on the two weapons.

You lost me. Whatnow?

MayGodHaveMercy

MayGodHaveMercy wrote: »

Did some testing. I found a dummy that's not inflating crit chance for whatever reason, though I'm not sure about armor. 2 Minutes for each test. No Bladestorm/Recklessness

In order of appearance -


12/8/41 - Devastate/HS build 1033.6 DPS

51/10/0 - Slam Spam Build. Spammed Slam like it was steady shot. 1101.2 DPS

51/10/0 - Same build - Slam Spam + Sudden Death when available. 957.3 DPS

TG to Round it out.

TG - 1021.6 DPS

Gear is here.

Same gear used for all tests. 2h weapons for arms and TG spec is Trollbane x2.

Obviously, these were quick tests, so nothing conclusive, but it's a starting point.

815165

Your BT's hit harder than your WW's?

MayGodHaveMercy

My whirlwinds hit harder, but they just happened to miss more in that little 2-minute chunk. Also they crit a bit less.

Mgcw

I was getting 1100 as Arms in greens with the Merciless 2h sword, 51/10/0. Titan's grip put me at 980 DPS but this is before TG gets Impale since I'm only lvl 70.

The hit penalty isn't that big of a deal, is it too much right now? Probably a little bit over the top but it's close. If you miss a slam or BThirst or HS/Cleave your rage doesn't get used up, anyone who has rage problems as TG is doing it wrong, because vs the Boss dummy I only have 3% +hit from gear and never run out of rage to spam cleave on every main hand attack. You can also still use Bthirst without a weapon.

TG needs a bit less of a penalty, and the hit penalty is really not a big deal, I'll take it over a damage penalty or attack speed debuff any day. That EJ post totally neglects the effect that haste has on a TG spec's white damage over normal dual wielding. If it's less compared to what Bthirst gives you per point, that just means Bthirst is really good, not that TG is really bad.

MayGodHaveMercy

Mgcw wrote: »

I was getting 1100 as Arms in greens with the Merciless 2h sword, 51/10/0. Titan's grip put me at 980 DPS but this is before TG gets Impale since I'm only lvl 70.

The hit penalty isn't that big of a deal, is it too much right now? Probably a little bit over the top but it's close. If you miss a slam or BThirst or HS/Cleave your rage doesn't get used up, anyone who has rage problems as TG is doing it wrong, because vs the Boss dummy I only have 3% +hit from gear and never run out of rage to spam cleave on every main hand attack. You can also still use Bthirst without a weapon.

TG needs a bit less of a penalty, and the hit penalty is really not a big deal, I'll take it over a damage penalty or attack speed debuff any day. That EJ post totally neglects the effect that haste has on a TG spec's white damage over normal dual wielding. If it's less compared to what Bthirst gives you per point, that just means Bthirst is really good, not that TG is really bad.

Go to Darnassus. Use the dummy on the far left (when you're facing the city) and run those tests again. That's the only dummy that's not inflating the living shit out of everything.

Here are some comparisons...

Red = Bad Dummies
Green = Good Dummies

Slamspam: 1101/1704
Devaspam: 1033/1460
TG: 1021/1407


Before you ask, no, I don't know why there is one dummy that seems to work, when the rest don't. Yes, they are all Skull ?? Bosses.

And regardless of whether the 15% hit penalty is balanced or not, it takes the fun out of it. Missing sucks. That's really what a lot of us are complaining about. I don't want to be overpowered (well, maybe a little), but I would like to have fun. Using +miss (and a ridiculous amount at that) as a balance is shit.

Mgcw

MayGodHaveMercy wrote: »

And regardless of whether the 15% hit penalty is balanced or not, it takes the fun out of it. Missing sucks. That's really what a lot of us are complaining about. I don't want to be overpowered (well, maybe a little), but I would like to have fun. Using +miss (and a ridiculous amount at that) as a balance is shit.

That is the one I was using, but even if it wasn't it wouldn't matter much because using them both against the same dummies would inflate it as much for one as it does the other, as shown by your numbers. I don't think it's a ridiculous amount of miss, yes it's a little high currently, but you're gearing for hit if you're DWing anyway, they just made it apply to specials and now you just have to gear for hit more than an Arms Warrior. If you don't have fun with Fury, spec Arms. I like it the way it is and don't have a problem with the miss penalty, which I much prefer and find more "fun" over an attack speed or damage penalty.

MayGodHaveMercy

Mgcw wrote: »

but you're gearing for hit if you're DWing anyway

Yeah, until the soft cap, then you get more benefit from every other stat except for haste. As it stands now, we'll be gearing for hit like rogues, not like live Fury warriors.

EDIT: If that gear in your armory link is right, I don't see how you're doing 1100 DPS arms spec at level 70. I'm sure you're the greatest player of every class that ever lived, but... really I just don't get that. Then again, I didn't blow cooldowns or even touch Bladestorm, so perhaps I'm undervaluing those in my mind. Of course, this is all assuming you're not using sweeping strikes, and staying far, far away from the other dummy so as not to WW/Cleave/Bladestorm it.

Be right back.

EDIT: Awesome, the PTR is down again.

Mgcw

MayGodHaveMercy wrote: »

Mgcw wrote: »

but you're gearing for hit if you're DWing anyway

Yeah, until the soft cap, then you get more benefit from every other stat except for haste. As it stands now, we'll be gearing for hit like rogues, not like live Fury warriors.

Yes, so what? You have to gear more for hit now, that's exactly what I said. I'm well aware that you only have to gear for the special cap right now. They've changed it.

EDIT: If that gear in your armory link is right, I don't see how you're doing 1100 DPS arms spec at level 70. I'm sure you're the greatest player of every class that ever lived, but... really I just don't get that. Then again, I didn't blow cooldowns or even touch Bladestorm, so perhaps I'm undervaluing those in my mind.

Yes, you go from using 25 rage to having 100 rage when you use Bladestorm, sudden death when it procs and you have low rage, I acutally used overpower, rend and Mortal Strike, it seems all you did for yours was spam slam over and over. I'll go do it again and post screenshots if you'd really like, not tonight but tommorow.

MayGodHaveMercy

Mgcw wrote: »

MayGodHaveMercy wrote: »

Mgcw wrote: »

but you're gearing for hit if you're DWing anyway

Yeah, until the soft cap, then you get more benefit from every other stat except for haste. As it stands now, we'll be gearing for hit like rogues, not like live Fury warriors.

Yes, so what? You have to gear more for hit now, that's exactly what I said. I'm well aware that you only have to gear for the special cap right now. They've changed it.

EDIT: If that gear in your armory link is right, I don't see how you're doing 1100 DPS arms spec at level 70. I'm sure you're the greatest player of every class that ever lived, but... really I just don't get that. Then again, I didn't blow cooldowns or even touch Bladestorm, so perhaps I'm undervaluing those in my mind.

Yes, you go from using 25 rage to having 100 rage when you use Bladestorm, sudden death when it procs and you have low rage, I acutally used overpower, rend and Mortal Strike, it seems all you did for yours was spam slam over and over. I'll go do it again and post screenshots if you'd really like, not tonight but tommorow.

I did indeed only spam slam, and was careful not to do any accidental AoE damage, as well. I'll run through some other rotations when the server comes back online. I can't see why you'd use overpower unless you have <20 or so rage, though. I didn't spec into Imp OP anyway.

Mgcw

MayGodHaveMercy wrote: »

I did indeed only spam slam, and was careful not to do any accidental AoE damage, as well. I'll run through some other rotations when the server comes back online. I can't see why you'd use overpower unless you have <20 or so rage, though. I didn't spec into Imp OP anyway.

Because w/ Taste for Blood, Overpower lights up all the time and with imp overpower it crits a helluva lot more more than slam and cannot be Dodged, blocked, or parried. Spamming Slam is still delaying your swing timer by .5 seconds with Imp Slam, was nowhere near doing any accidental AoE damage. My gear is very slightly upgraded with some Northrend greens, around 120 more AP, 3% more crit, .8% haste, 1.25% expertise and 2% less hit.

MayGodHaveMercy

Did one more test to finish out the night.

Semi-Standard DW Fury build. 12/49 (12 in Arms for Impale, instead of 17, finally.)



Hmm, that puts it way above TG and every other spec, for my admittedly short round of testing. Of course, my 1h weapons (Vanir's Fists) are quite a bit better than my 2h weapons (Trollbane/Trollbane).

MayGodHaveMercy

Mgcw wrote: »

Spamming Slam is still delaying your swing timer by .5 seconds with Imp Slam

That's true, and that was exacerbated by being on the PTR, where you see pretty yellow numbers about 3.8 seconds after you pressed the corresponding button.

Mgcw

Posting screenshots of Arms in this post in a sec.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6020/wowscrnshot091608231640ty2.jpg recount + gear stats (battle shout is off, didn't bother to refresh for screenshot but was there vs dummy)
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3616/wowscrnshot091608231852jh0.jpg time spent attacking
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6130/wowscrnshot091608232028og2.jpg overall damage of each attack

Wavechaser

Spamming slam is horrible and you should feel bad.

Ugh I hate that stupid skill. I really think they should just get rid of it.

Mgcw

Wavechaser wrote: »

Spamming slam is horrible and you should feel bad.

Ugh I hate that stupid skill. I really think they should just get rid of it.

It doesn't interrupt your swing timer anymore, Wavechaser.

Wavechaser

I don't care I hate it LALALALALALALALAALAL

Septus

Wavechaser wrote: »

Spamming slam is horrible and you should feel bad.

Ugh I hate that stupid skill. I really think they should just get rid of it.

Don't even tell me you'd rather use that rage on heroic strike. Heroic Strike is the fucking worst skill ever.

shergak

So atm, dw-one handed fury is doing the most dps?

Mgcw

Wavechaser wrote: »

I don't care I hate it LALALALALALALALAALAL

I used to hate it too, it's good now I promise.