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A problem with MMORPGS...

Lord MaloryLord Malory Registered User regular
edited July 2007 in Games and Technology
gentlemen, I have a problem.

Im really starting to hate the damn MMORPGS.

I lack the attention span, and the grind after the initial "hey this game is is neat transferrance of my previous RTS/Platform/etc. Game/idea.

Ive played WoW since the alpha test on and off, due to some folks in development, and my most recent character during this three months of play made it to level 52 (warrior) Played every class, alliance, and several horde. The problem is, every "neat" looking alternate MMORPG has blown chunks of steaming repetition. Im tempting to playing some MUDs ive played since the innovation of the internet in my youth if im seeking community and interesting play. The only thing i find interesting in WoW these days is battlegrounds - i can play my level 19 for hours without boredom ensuing ( i play that low not for twinkage, but because of the minimum amount of time to get to said level). Sword of the New Work looks interesting, as does the pirates games, but im afraid they will contain the same grind format of traditional MMOs.

Ive played WoW, EQ (very briefly, got into too late and vomited in my mouth a bit, Dnd online (which my hardcore tabletop group loved, but beat every quest in about 2 weeks in the original release), got suckered into Vanguard by a group of idiot friends, as well as several others, beta tested LotrO, and wasnt too impressed with the format and mechanics. However, now I'm seeing that its getting great reviews and everyone seems to love it. Any LOTRO beta testers out there that play it now and have opinions on the development?

My question is, is there any MMORPG that possesses virtually NO grind (for quest "tokens" dungeon "unlocks", leveling, or any other such crap,) good PVP, and a very fast paced combat.

Consider this: I have hated virtually every JRPG thats come out in the past several years. enjoyed oblivion for around 20 hours, looking forward to fallout3 (heres hoping the combat has sped up), and since i got my DS ive put over twenty hours in FFVI and loving it (story, decent combat speed, very little grinding needed because the storyline levels you well for the challenges.) Advice? Also consider ive never played city of heroes or several others.

Sorry for the rambling post, but im at work on the day after the fourth and im one of the few assholes here.

LordMalory.png
Lord Malory on

Posts

  • dopplexdopplex Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Is Planetside still around?

    I remember that game being absolutely brilliant - a bit before its time I think. MMO FPS, no grind to get into the game. You basically had to commit to certifications which defined the weapons, equipment, and vehicles you could use. As you went up in rank, you got more certifications, which essentially enabled you to be more versatile or use more interesting combinations of things. However, just starting out you could still choose to use just about anything and be pretty effective. Leveling up gave versatility, not power.

    If SCEA wants a real killer app on the PS3 (Planetside is a SOE game, so Sony owns the IP), they should do a Planetside sequel there. I suspect it was a bit before its time, originally, and that it would be huge if released for console with integrated voice chat. I can think of all sorts of cool stuff they could use all of that Cell based processing power for. (Of course, the problem is that what I keep on thinking is 'Wow, this would be a perfect 360 game'.)

    dopplex on
  • BenboBenbo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I know in my heart of hearts that a small voice will soon come out of the darkness and whisper "EVE".

    Fact remains that any MMO without a sound group of friends to play it with is going to get dull fast. I've played EQ, EQ2, lineage2, DnD, WoW, EVE, Vanguard, Shadowbane and probably some others.

    They're all great until your friends either outlevel you or get bored and do something else.

    Benbo on
  • PmoneyPmoney Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I beta tested LOTRO, and I would say it is nearly a completely different game than what I first saw.
    It is an extreamly well put together quest-driven MMO. It's titles and traits are quite interesting, but for some reason it had less of a hold on me than WOW or FFXI.

    I think the grind is inevitable in any MMO, its a cruel fact.

    Speaking of MUD's, did anyone here play The Eternal City? More specifically when it was still amazing ( and free)? I WISH they would take the original code and throw in a graphics engine...

    Pmoney on
    Steam : Pmoney
    360 : ThePmoney
    Battle.net: Pmoney.thereal
  • DaybreakDaybreak Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I don't play it, so I could be completely wrong, but Guild Wars sounds like the perfect thing for you.

    Daybreak on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Friends in the game are important, but not as much as some might say. I played Asheron's Call for over 3 years, and loved it, plus Anarchy Online for 2 years, and EQ2 for a year... but I only played with a friend on rare occasion (conflicting schedules). However, I played WoW, Vanguard, City of Heroes, and LotRO with friends, and got bored within a couple months of each. It comes down to gameplay mechanics, and that special something involved, wether it be a story, combat animations, exploration, or just a little something cool (flying the Yalms in AO, going with a non-standard spec in AC).

    My rambling mind says you may just not like MMOs, and should take some time off. Give it a few months, then go to something other than WoW... EQ2 perhaps, or CoH.

    Shadowfire on
  • GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    What is it with MMOs that make people go on "rarr, THIS is the reason they suck" rants? I mean, I don't like driving games, but you don't see me making GRAND TURISMO SUCKS ALL YOU DO IS DRIVE foaming-at-mouth posts. It's not for me. So what makes MMOs different?

    Glal on
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Glal wrote: »
    What is it with MMOs that make people go on "rarr, THIS is the reason they suck" rants? I mean, I don't like driving games, but you don't see me making GRAND TURISMO SUCKS ALL YOU DO IS DRIVE foaming-at-mouth posts. It's not for me. So what makes MMOs different?

    Because MMOs offer a level of interactivity you don't find in any other game, and people (like me) are bothered by the apparent general apathy towards grinding; it pretty much kills any incentive a company has to find another way to go about progression, keeping casual players away.

    I loved the idea, art and story behind 9Dragons, but the grind is prohibitive. :(

    MKR on
  • SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2007
    EvE


    Seriously, you want fast combat? I rarely last longer than 10 seconds in most PvP combat scenarios. :P


    But really, no game is perfect and MMOs are generally the worst of a bad bunch. That said, even a horrendously shitty MMO can be great depending on the people you play it with. That's their sole strength, the fact that there are other actual people playing them and the best amongst them are the ones that maximise human interaction (which I guess is why the ones with a strong PvP focus are often heralded as the least shitty examples of MMOs).

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    EvE


    Seriously, you want fast combat? I rarely last longer than 10 seconds in most PvP combat scenarios. :P

    With EvE, though, your grind is not the combat... it's getting there. ;-)

    Shadowfire on
  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Guild Wars is probably best for you.
    All MMOs have a grind, some worse than others. Others worse than worse.

    Accualt on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    WoW at 60+ has no grind at all. In fact, despite some quests being kill x amount of y there are so many decent story driven quests that it never feels like a grind.

    The_Scarab on
  • StratoStrato Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I played WoW for years but never got a character to 60 because I get bored of grinding. I had characters of every class and faction though. Usually I would get to 25-30 and then get bored of grinding. Eventually I quit because it was sucking up my life for little reward.

    I tried out LOTRO and was having a lot of fun the first day. Then I read something online that they slowed down mounts to add more of a timesink. A timesink is exactly what I don't want in an MMO. It probably makes economical sense unfortunately, cause I think most people will play through it. But I can't stand it.

    If the whole game could feel as exciting and a challenge as all the stuff you get in your first 20 levels, then I could play an MMO regularly. Unnecessary timesinks are not the way to go.

    Strato on
  • Sinister CheshireSinister Cheshire Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I don't think there is a grind in EvE, because your skills and such simply level up in the background while you do whatever it is you are doing.

    But the problem I found with EvE is that I found myself pretty much doing nothing. And I dont mean I was sitting around for hours at a time staring at the screen.

    I would find an object, find out where it is, in put the auto pilot commands, wait around while the ship took me there, do whatever, and reverse back to home base.

    Combat is pretty much the same. Go to Area, fly towards enemy. auto pilot engages. combat is resoved via flying around each other and ship auto-doing pretty much everything.

    I was really into the game for a couple weeks until I figured out that I was doing almost nothing except telling the game where to go, then sitting back and watching an hours worth of stuff happen.

    Sinister Cheshire on
  • Lord MaloryLord Malory Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Overall, I do like MMOs - I have to say, Dungeons and Dragons online was the MOST fun for me, but the content was too short. The reason i liked it was that it had very little timesink, and no level grind, and there were innovative, strategy based wased to blaze through dungeons based more on personal skill and less on gear and level build that WoW.

    Currently I think I am going to take a break, and yes, the reason I WANT to play MMOs is to have a player community thats hard to find elsewhere. Maybe Ill check out guildwars as well, appreciate the heads up, and the consideration from the fellow Beta LOTRO'er. I enjoyed EVE a bit, but the stellar travel bored me quite a bit - it seemed to take longer to get from quest to quest than it did in games like WoW, but that may be because i was a noob and had no community. Perhaps Ill play again and join Wang, so i have shit to do and folks to talk to during jumps. even 5 minutes of jumping between every quest gets old fast.

    And even though I consider myself an old fart, at the whopping age of 24, playing video games since the tender age of 4 (and im not ADD either....or at least not diagnosed....and ya know, speed DOES help my concentration, but thats another story.. :) I find these days i cant pay attention to 95 percent of games for longer than a few weeks, and i hardly beat anything these days.

    These may be a result of my love of pop culture integration in so many things, but i think it has to do with personal psychosis. However, I can read a book in a day sitting at a coffee shop for 6 hours. Perhaps my brain is just getting to a differnet field of geeky these days. Thanks for the input.

    Lord Malory on
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  • EndomaticEndomatic Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    WoW at 60+ has no grind at all. In fact, despite some quests being kill x amount of y there are so many decent story driven quests that it never feels like a grind.

    Oh hell yes it is.

    Kill fucking 30 elekk.

    Oh, you're done?!

    Go kill 30 tigers. TRY THAT on for size asshole!

    Oh, you did it! fuck me, go kill 30 Huge Voidkillers or whatever.


    60-70 is just as bad, or worse than 1-60.
    It's the same fucking shit all over again.

    Story driven quests?

    Oh hey, you met my nephew in Stranglethorn. Well I'll challenge you!

    Go hunt and kill all these animals for me! Except this time you need twice as many!

    Fuck that.

    Endomatic on
  • Lord MaloryLord Malory Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    thats some funny shit. Yeah, stranglethorn is some funny shit. Great job, thanks for the help, but there really are 20 more, slightly higher level tigers that do the exact same shit. Except these guys make you walk slower, for a longer period of time. Be careful!

    Lord Malory on
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  • dopplexdopplex Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    MKR wrote: »

    Because MMOs offer a level of interactivity you don't find in any other game, and people (like me) are bothered by the apparent general apathy towards grinding; it pretty much kills any incentive a company has to find another way to go about progression, keeping casual players away.

    I loved the idea, art and story behind 9Dragons, but the grind is prohibitive. :(
    I think the big issue is that the part of the game identified as a problem is a design element rather than something fundamental to the genre.

    The issue with MMORPGs is that they're RPGs - they need to be defined by character development. It's very easy to fall into the trap of just making that character development work like the vast majority of traditional RPGs - ie. you get experience points, every so often, you go up in level.

    You know what would be really interesting? A character progression system that worked more like Xbox 360 achievements than experience points. That is, the completion of tasks is the direct cause of advancement, rather than a count stat of some sort. (experience points) Even looking at achievements such as 'Zombie Genocide' in Dead Rising - which is, essentially, a grind - there's much more of a focus on the single task. (Of course, if all of the other achievements in the game were fundamentally the same - ie. kill xxxx yyyyys, it wouldn't work at all). In essence, a goal oriented achievement creates the framework for a story - something that grinding does not.

    The fundamental problem with a count stat for advancement is the emphasis it places on repetition. You're not interested so much in how you're getting more experience - just that the number keeps going up. The predictability of constant experience gain through grinding is a viable substitute for other forms of advancement - and the player base (which is, generally speaking, pretty risk averse when it comes to investing their time) will choose this low risk activity over activities that might be more rewarding, but which might also result in a waste of time.

    Hell, we see grind mechanics in play in most MMORPG end game scenarios as well. The entire concept of 'farm-status' denotes a total lack of engagement in certain activities. Gameplay ceases to be about gameplay, and becomes entirely about what the reward for that gameplay was.

    There's a word for something unentertaining that you do only for the reward: Your job. The fact that most end game content can be reduced down to an activity that's more of a chore than entertainment (after the initial attempts), but is done primarily for the reward, is a major flaw in the design of every MMO out there.

    I reject the arguments that the genre sucks, of course. Grinding does in fact suck. There may be a handful of people who prefer it, but the vast majority of us simply put up with it due to the other rewards of the given game. The frustration really arises from the fact that most players intuitively realize that it doesn't have to be this way. Most of us play single player games - and though the mechanics don't translate directly to MMOs, we know that going through a dungeon doesn't have to be about kill rate - that it's possible for a properly contextualized story to give us an actual REASON to want to get to the bottom of the dungeon that isn't simply the opportunity to kill a boss we've killed 15 times before. The problem, of course, is how to solve that problem in an MMO where you have finite resources for adding content, and certainly don't have the resources to give the players a new story and dungeon for every play session.

    The problem right now is that essentially all of the major games tend to be built about a basic premise of repetition - because they have to be, to provide enough content for players. The problem isn't the repetition - until we have AI that can actually write a decent story, we're going to have to live with that - the problem is that nobody has figured out how something that is in fact repetitive *seem* non-repetitive. (One big way to remedy this is PvP and more robust player-created content - but those are different qualitatively, and really fill a completely different market need. Not everyone is interested in PvP or what their fellow players come up with, after all)

    This is rather longer than I meant it to be. And probably makes a good deal less sense than I had meant it to, but what the hell... My general point is that the complaints about grinding are justified, and that it isn't the same about complaining about Forza because it's a racing game - the fact that an MMORPG is an RPG does *not* dictate that it involve grinding. That's simply the current tunnel vision that we're unable to escape from.

    dopplex on
  • StormyWatersStormyWaters Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    As long as people keep wanting to progress you'll have a grind. I've been saying, often, that MMOs should just give you max level/max skills/whatever at the onset, let the grind be one of equipment if there has to be one.

    Toast used to say it a lot better than I do, and he was right. Sadly, as soon as maxlevel at default (aka no levels) is suggested it gets shot down for various reasons I don't find compelling.

    StormyWaters on
  • Lord MaloryLord Malory Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    insightful dopplex, and thats my point exactly, and the type of thing I am looking for. I think a big problem with MMORPGs is the lack of personalize Story. Now, I dont play MMORPGs to create character and story myself, thats what i play tabletop games for. I am investing time and money for the immersion into story. I am buying story, much like i recieve when i pay for a good book. However, the reason i look for games as a release from reality and increase in adrenaline and enjoyment, is because highly entertaining books of that nature last only 4-10 hours for me. and 7.99-20something bucks for 4-10 hours isnt worth it, unless its fabulous (see=/Neil Gaimen(spelling?))

    Lord Malory on
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  • TotesTotes Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I'm surprised no one has said to look forward to Fury. The only grind is PvP. You just kill people. The same way Battlefield 2142 is a grind. You have to kill people to make your character go up in level.

    http://www.unleashthefury.com/

    Sounds to me like it's right up your ally. I'm in the navy and since I have very limmited time that I can devote to games and recreation in general I'm looking for fast games that I can play for 15-30 minutes, feel like I've had some fun and made some progress and then go back to work.

    At least that's what I'm hoping Fury will be like. If it lives up to what it promises then it'll do it.

    Totes on
  • Lord MaloryLord Malory Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Ah yes... didnt really consider battlefield as an MMO, but I DO like that, precisely for MMO reasons, clan, community, and no grind relating to game enjoyment. however, having the top support and sniper gun is very fun. going to look into fury as well.

    also, side note- any game sin general out there that are psychadelic like.. well, if anyone has seen the preview to Across the Universe, or the Taymore Titus Andronicus, Julie Taymore movies are the visualization of my brain.

    Lord Malory on
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  • eric.eric. __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2007
    I couldn't imagine playing our MMO de jour (WoW) without my group of 6 other RL buds that play with me. We all quit at the same time, came back and rerolled at the same time. THEY make the game hell of a lot more fun.

    eric. on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited July 2007
    Endomatic wrote: »

    Oh hell yes it is.

    Kill fucking 30 elekk.

    Oh, you're done?!

    Go kill 30 tigers. TRY THAT on for size asshole!

    Oh, you did it! fuck me, go kill 30 Huge Voidkillers or whatever.


    60-70 is just as bad, or worse than 1-60.
    It's the same fucking shit all over again.

    Story driven quests?

    Oh hey, you met my nephew in Stranglethorn. Well I'll challenge you!

    Go hunt and kill all these animals for me! Except this time you need twice as many!

    Fuck that.
    Kill X quests are nothing. It's get X of an item that has a 2% drop rate off these fuckers that are spread out conservatively across the zone that suck. Go back and level 1-60, then do 60-70. They did a much better job with quests this time around.

    And I too wonder why we have to have a MMORPG bitch thread every other week.

    Sterica on
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  • dopplexdopplex Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    insightful dopplex, and thats my point exactly, and the type of thing I am looking for. I think a big problem with MMORPGs is the lack of personalize Story. Now, I dont play MMORPGs to create character and story myself, thats what i play tabletop games for. I am investing time and money for the immersion into story. I am buying story, much like i recieve when i pay for a good book. However, the reason i look for games as a release from reality and increase in adrenaline and enjoyment, is because highly entertaining books of that nature last only 4-10 hours for me. and 7.99-20something bucks for 4-10 hours isnt worth it, unless its fabulous (see=/Neil Gaimen(spelling?))

    The key difference between tabletop/single player RPG and a MMO is that for the most part, a MMO needs to rely on the players for story creation. And I don't mean that it needs players sitting in town roleplaying. For practical reasons, a MMO can't define stories - it can't possibly come up with enough material. However, humans are creatures who try to process things into stories by default - it's how we remember and relate to things. So relying on us to do some of the heavy lifting isn't such a bad idea.

    So the MMO can't create the story for us. What an MMO *can* do is provide context for the actions of its players. The first responsibility of the game's design is to give players both in character and out of character reasons to try to achieve a goal. (To be honest, that should pretty much be game design 101.) In an MMO, this probably means having a relatively immersive world where a character can form real associations with PC and NPC groups which can provide a context and a goal for a player.

    The second responsibility of the game is to create *conflict* surrounding the achievement of this goal. (Remember, the game needs to give the player all of the components to create a story from - and conflict is a pretty important thing when you're creating a narrative) - and do so in a way that differentiates player experiences. (In other words - there needs to be unpredictability to the story).

    Lastly - and this part is slightly more well understood - there needs to be an appropriate payoff. This can be a mechanical reward, status, access to other content or items, etc. While I complained about loot oriented gameplay earlier, I have a problem more with the lack of other sorts of gameplay. Reward is very potent - and the more interesting the reward, the more interesting the story, typically. (Not that it does much if there is no story)

    None of this, though, is really new. Random missions have existed in games for a while - but they've typically done a VERY poor job of contextualizing the task, and all the player processes is 'Go to X, kill Y, return to Z for cash and experience. Repeat.' The devil is really in the details - in actually making sure that the player connects the context and reasons for their journey with the journey itself, in making the conflict one that is variable enough to occasionally be unexpected while staying challenging and engaging.

    One really interesting place to look for the ability to create stories is variant play in games such as Diablo II and Civ. Adding unusual restrictions to otherwise understood challenges can do an excellent job of giving both context and additional conflict to what would otherwise be repetitive gameplay. What does that add up to? Story. MMO designers could learn a lot from it.

    That journey to retrieve a stolen object from the depths of Runnyeye gets a lot more interesting when you learn that you're not allowed to kill a goblin in the process...

    dopplex on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    The biggest problem with MMOs is that developers realize they can make a lot of cash from monthly fees, and as such, structure the gameplay around things that take lots of time....which is just about the exact fucking opposite of the best way to make a game fun.

    Don't get me wrong, with a good group of people, the grind in MMOs can still be fun, but largely, the entire gameplay structure is built around everything taking a very long time, so you will have to keep paying month-to-month in order to get wherever it is you want to be.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • dopplexdopplex Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    The biggest problem with MMOs is that developers realize they can make a lot of cash from monthly fees, and as such, structure the gameplay around things that take lots of time....which is just about the exact fucking opposite of the best way to make a game fun.

    Don't get me wrong, with a good group of people, the grind in MMOs can still be fun, but largely, the entire gameplay structure is built around everything taking a very long time, so you will have to keep paying month-to-month in order to get wherever it is you want to be.

    I don't think this is entirely accurate. I certainly don't play MMOs with the objective of finishing the grind and then no longer playing - so the idea that the grind is lengthier to keep people playing seems unlikely to me.

    More likely is that MMO developers have developed some degree of tunnel vision. It's sometimes hard to look at your own work and realize "Hey, this doesn't actually truly engage the player". In fact, it's always hard to do that, and I'm willing to bet that it very rarely happens. The truth is that grinding is *easy*. It's well understood. You don't risk much when you make it the primary way of advancing. It lends itself to being analyzed and balanced mathematically.

    So it doesn't get questioned. (Also, in established games, it pretty much can't be questioned - you don't change the fundamental advancement system of a game two years into the life. We already have a rather grisly object lesson for what happens when you alienate your player base like that.)

    The problem is mostly that MMOs more than other games have very high barriers to entry for developers. You not only need to deal with code that's probably significantly more complex than that of a single player game (not to mention ever changing), you also need to be able to reach a critical player base mass so that your game is worth playing. After all, an empty MMO isn't fun, no matter how good the mechanics are. This takes more spend on promotion - both in dollars and employee time. So even if an indy MMO gets a good game built, it's going to be difficult for them to maintain enough of a player base to make a large world seem full.

    This dynamic means that design innovation in MMOs is very slow - they're high risk projects even when you don't innovate, and the high barriers to entry mean that it's harder for competition to spur innovation.

    dopplex on
  • SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    WoW at 60+
    hahaha

    SithDrummer on
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