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[split] something about cuba and rockets
Che Guevara
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Che Guevara wrote: »I've read the thread.
That was perfectly on topic with the concept of American Property Rights.
The European Occupation of North America is still an ongoing issue.
The Slave Trade, which treated other Human Beings as property.
If you choose to ignore past examples, thats your own decision.
It's an ongoing issue to those who live vicariously through past injustices. To the rest of humanity, it's history. It's called history for a reason -- it's OVER.
And I'm arguing with someone who chose a communist murderer as his online nom de plume.
One man's murderer is another man's Freedom Fighter.
How many people have died since the war in Iraq 'ended'? Have these people not been 'murdered' by your definition?
How about a century of Banana Republics?
It doesn't end. It just changes form. And those who choose to forget the sins of the past are doomed to repeat them.
Che Guevara on
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Ah, I see. Moral equivalence. How disgusting.
EDIT: Sorry ElJeffe. I think I just shit on your forum.
You're the one who tried to take the moral high ground. I'm just stating facts.
If you would like an 'opinion' from me, at least Che Guevara stood for something. The man worked in leper colonies before becoming a revolutionary. He succeeded in overthrowing a puppet government erected in Cuba designed to support the United States. And then he was murdered by the CIA.
Your own President never saw military action in person. He does not know the horrors he's inflicting on innocent civilians through his actions. This War on Terror has done nothing but perpetuate a state of terror.
Weapons of Mass Destruction are a terrifying fear for the American public... but that's only because they're all descended from the original WMDs, the colonists who's viral history paved the way for the occupation of America.
Lets say they're both lunatics and move on.
*cough* Cuban Missle Crisis? *cough*
I apologize. Although the Cuban Missle Crisis serves as a good point for my earlier comments regarding the ethics of American Property Rights and how they're responded to by the remainder of the world. The Cuban Missle Crisis was instigated by the Bay of Pigs Invasion, which was an attempt at regaining control over what was considered 'American Property,' previous to the fall of the Batista government. (So yes... Che and Castro had nukes, but they didn't nuke anyone.)
Learn to seperate fact from fiction. Cuba was made to look like a little pitbull sitting off the shore of America. It was an act of aggression on the part of America that bought the situation to a head and has kept Cuba an independent nation ever since.
Che did stand for something. He demonstrated that a small group of people working together could gain public support and initiate a positive social change. You can not compare any of his actions to those you've mentioned above. He was very much a man of the people. He was never known to abuse his power. He even suffered poor health during the majority of his career as a revolutionary, succumbing to bouts of asthma induced by the humidity of the jungles his campaigns took him to. There are several books that follow his lifestory, as well as a movie that I suggest you watch. (The Motorcycle Diaries)
As for my stance on property rights... you'll find that until the modern Western concepts of property were developed, it was pretty much limited to the aristocracy. Western Capitalism spurred on the development of these concepts for the average person. But in this case, the arrival of this fundamental change that created this new meme was precipitated by the virus that wiped out the opposition and cleared the playing field. Had 90 percent of the native population not been wiped out by disease, European settlers would have never been able to occupy North America.
I have. Castro armed the missiles with nuclear warheads and had them aimed at DC. He was waiting on Khruschev to give the go ahead and would have launched them himself if it were his decision to make. Russia is the only thing that kept Castro from nuking anyone.
I think it's unfair to paint Castro as some kind of war monger. He was worried (and justifibly so!) about an american invasion, which is why he called for a preemptive strike (and only when the crisis had escalated). And he was correct in being worried as many of the US generals (LeMay in particular) wanted to attack regardless of the outcome. Luckily cooler heads on both sides prevailed.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
I completely agree.
What purpose would it have served Cuba to nuke America? It's not like Cubans were planning on invading Florida... except maybe in makeshift rafts.
Cuba merely served as Communism's foil against American Imperialism.
Or, you know... Deer.
The Politburo would be pleased.
When I said this was off topic, it applied to all participating parties. Shall I do a split?
Deer?
--LeVar Burton
Deer populations run in a pretty steep boom/bust cycle which can really fuck up the surrounding environment in the interval between them having lots of babies and those babies starving to death. A lot of other species do a similar thing, particularly the rodents. So do insects like locusts and those wacky ants in south america, but they stave off the dying part by travelling across the land in order to access more destroyable bits. There's really no such thing as an equilibrium in nature, which makes Agent Smith's diatribe rather ignorant, although its still emotionally resonant. I dare say you can't expect much depth of ecological knowledge from software that ate the planet, though.
edit: you can make the case that human interference pushes these species into steeper and more frequent boom/bust cycles than might otherwise occur though. Mice plagues are exacerbated in grain country, etc.
Keep in mind that China's economy is only worth 20% that of California's.
Also, China does not allow their currency to be traded on the world market, instead choosing to keep it's value artificially low by using government controls.
A good portion of modern capitalist civilization is built on the back of China's manufacturing economy, and their efforts at keeping the prices stablized help protect the rest of the civilized world from rampant inflation.
Imagine paying $10 for an incandescent light bulb or a single battery.
Terrorists attack civillian targets, while freedom fighters attack government and military targets only. Terrorists fight for what they want, while freedom fighters fight for justice and liberty.
Confusion.
Che helped overthrown Batista's government by attacking military targets.
Castro's revolution was a popular one in Cuba.
The Bay of Pigs Invasion was the first of many US Terrorist attacks on Cuba.
Can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.
At least, to you're credit, you don't claim I'm full of shit and Che was sweetness and awesome and just trying to help people omg haven't u seen teh motorscyle dyaries?! Hed nevur hurt ne1 ololololol
Fuck goddamn but I hate teenage communists
But I digress
Which is the same thing as what you accuse bush of doing.
Seriously, you're not seeing the contradiction here?
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Of course, not that he wasn't a dick for doing the trial-less execution thing, but people in power tend to be dicks, at least to the point of not valuing human life very much. Combine that with idealistic fervor and violence is a non-issue. Regardless, personally, there are many features of Che I would applaud, just as there are many I would condemn.
Well so what if I can't?
Ab-so-fucking-lutely.
You've never heard of a capitalist talk about executing dissidents? Need I remind you of the past 4 years and the occupation of Iraq? The War officially 'ended' in 2003, remember?
In terms of how history will view them, what's the real difference between a dissident and an insurgent?
Capitalism doesn't look at people in regards to their individual ideology. Instead it treats them like statistics. Either gears in the machine or grease for the wheels.
I'd rather side with the man who gets his hands dirty than the man who makes decisions from behind a human shield.
One works within the existing socio-political framework to enact changes while the other goes out and kills people who get in the way of his changes.
At what point does history record their actions? I'm quite sure Cuba records a different view of the events than America does.
How are we to know that the men Che executed weren't planning to commit violent acts?
On the topic of 'murdering capitalists' Fidel Castro has successfully evaded decades of assassination attempts by the US government.
Of course it does, history has never been nor will it ever be objective.
So, Che was pretty horrible, but he's far from the only one.
No. Never. Not because he was a capitalist, anyways. Individuals and governments like Pinochet's executed people because of their authoritarian nature, not because of their capitalism. A communist society necessitates either an incredibly small society, or a hilariously/frighteningly authoritarian and socialist state to reach the communist utopia just over the next hill, and both situations cannot tolerate capitalists, either at the level of individuals in the small situation, or in groups at the level of a state.
False dichotomy. I think your problem is that you see things in terms of who's stacking the bodies, rather than what works and/or what is best for society.
You're seriously drawing equivalence between killing people for disagreeing with you, and killing people that are actively trying to do violence to you?
--LeVar Burton
That's not entirely accurate. What about all the socialist and nationalist movements that have been put down by western supported violence? The coup that overthrew Mossadegh in 1953 was because he nationalised the oil industry and didn't play by the capitalist rules.
And as Che mentioned, the CIA has made numerous attempts to kill Castro.