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A Discussion With a Youth Pastor
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It gets even better than that. I'm a Mennonite, so we are like, all the hell about the "turn the other cheek stuff" and my dad, who is not a pastor, but has taken many seminary and biblical history etc course told me some really interesting stuff about the context of those instructions.
The cheek thing, in addition to what you said, I think also was little more confrontational than that even. To slap/hit you properly on the 'other' cheek, they'd have to use their other hand, which was unclean and would shame them to do so.
With the "offering a man your robe if he takes your cloak" thing, it would actually shame them to see you naked, but not you.
And the carry a pack for the extra mile thing was for the Romans. At the time a Roman soldier could make someone carry their gear for a mile (or whatever unit they used), but couldn't make them do it any longer. If they did, they got into trouble.
So all these things were ways to defeat someone who was beating, taking advantage of, or oppressing you without resorting to violence. Jesus was subversive.
Otherwise known as a mile. Word comes from Latin, means thousand. A mile was a thousand paces, or about 1.5k, so pretty close to the modern mile.
Trivia time over.
Yeah i'm firmly in your camp. Sorry if I didn't make it clear.
I think what people claim is transcendental subtlety is really just paradox. Nonsensical and stupid.
Fred Phelps doesn't need straightening out. He isn't gay. God hates fags, but loves Fred Phelps, so Fred couldn't possibly be gay. m i rite?
Though it would be so tasty if he had a gay prostitute scandal like that one guy last year. Getting caught in hypocrisy is the best way to shut up folk like him.
OMG the world couldn't be made in 7 days, mirite?
If you read the bible, one of the reasons Jesus was sent to earth was because the Jews at the time went apeshit with all these extra rules and requirements on top of the 10 commandments, and other core rules that were handed down.
So what happens in the first 3-4 centuries after Christ's visit? Man makes up a bunch of other rules on top of the "rules" (and I quote that because Jesus didn't lay out a rulebook like the 10 commandments, he told everyone to start using their noggin's rather than their Teachers of the Law) Jesus laid out.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Faith, in the Hebrews 11:1 sense, is, I think, one of the worst inventions in human history. It's basically supplanting reason with conviction.
Also, I've had the opposite experience. It's essentially impossible to debate Christianity from the inside, as it simply becomes an exercise in one or more people justifying their beliefs via faith which, in the Hebrews 11:1 sense, is entirely impossible to reason with.
Debating from the outside, which I interpret to mean "are [some set of claims] true?", is much more feasible. We feel a need to justify most things- people often seek justification for their beliefs, even if they rest on faith. This is why you have people falling over themselves looking for (and declaring!) real miracles and fulfilled prophecies and the like.
Weren't your people getting rid of that?
If I buy it now, does it come a with a handy pocket flashlight and include free shipping?
What do you think would happen if I wrote a completely bullshit version of the Bible right now, and started selling it? Like, would I burst into flames, or something? Would all of the Bibles magically become stamped with "Not 100% God-approved"? If people are determined to be assholes, there's only so much God could do.
It's an approach that requires a great deal more thought and analysis, and requires resignation to the fact that you don't have complete knowledge of all the answers. Which is probably why many, if not most, people opt for literalness, instead.
No, limbo is worse since there's no chance of ever going to heaven. You're just stuck in the middle. It's like here, only nobody can die. Purgatory sucks worse, but at least you get into heaven at the end of it.
At the same time, though.... I'm not banking on that hope being true.
Honestly, I know a lot of people rag on us religious folks because a portion of us go to drastic, dire, and sometimes rude levels to "convert the non-believers", but the fact remains that a lot of us do feel like there is a risk of our friends/loved ones being in danger in "the next life".
I may not agree with some of the methods of trying to convince you "non-believers", but at the same time, it's a concern to me. I can't do the overtly obvious "recruiting" for Christianity, mainly because I'm not Salesy at all (and let's be honest, most people take that approach), I would much rather let people make their own conclusions, not ram them down their throats.
That being said though, I'm still going to talk about my faith (or "convictions" as it's been said earlier in this thread) when asked about it, or when the topic comes up in hopes that something I say or do happens to strike a chord and leads into further discussion.
Perhaps that's why I post this now. I may get made fun of from time to time, or get shot down in a blaze of theological theories, but I'm a big boy, I can take it.
That would make him perhaps the least potent omnipotent dude ever
People are always assholes
I'm being an asshole right now
I, for one, rag on religious people for believing ludicrous things without any evidence.
Okay, if he's omnipotent, he can do whatever, but if we're assuming non-Calvinism, he won't.
Are we using Dantian mythos, here? Because the Bible itself doesn't really define this shit. But otherwise, yeah, Limbo is paradise without God; and purgatory is only mildly better than Hell, but at least allows for redemption.
Fair enough, that is your right to do so, I suppose.
I could in turn ask you if you believe I'm a real person or not. Blah Blah Blah, etc. etc. etc. Of course the difference is, no one's knocking on your door on a Saturday afternoon handing you a pamphlet about saint2e's existence.
And if there were, I'd be a bit creeped out.
I'm pretty sure church dogma falls in line with some of Dante's stuff or it's treated with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge type deal.
I'm not familiar with the historical background of the Divine Comedy, but does the church have any justification for granting it any relevance at all? I sort of thought that Dante basically made up a bunch of shit, theologically speaking. If the church is using it as dogma, isn't that sort of like people getting their history lessons from The Da Vinci Code?
Surely you recognize the difference between trusting one's immediate sensory experience and believing (for example) that a certain book is the infallible word of God.
I rag on them exactly the same amount as I do people who believe in the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, chupacabras, and Godzilla.
Which is to say, a lot.
Catholics tend to look at it differently. The church asks pretty much as little as possible from the majority of people. A little faith, good works, and confession. Not really that hard.
However, for a select group of people, it asks the world. Priests carry your sins on their shoulders, and abstain from a lot so that you can indulge. It's why I get a little annoyed when people dismiss priests so easily.
And no, the catholic church still has purgatory and limbo, just some stuff was... uhm, retconned. ;-)
Edit: So badly beaten...
Oh of course, but we could get really existential and ask ourselves if we really exist or is this a simulation? Or maybe I'm in a coma in the real world, and you're all a part of an elaborate lucid dream, etc. etc.
Would you say it's conceivable, albeit unlikely?
True, don't go to some newbie pastor on this subject or this internet hellhole of a fourm for advice. Read some bibical scholars and make your mind for yourself.
Go to the library or a bookstore and pick up some books. Do not talk to anyone else. Study and decide yourself.
If you want recomendations on books PM me.
I don't believe that the church considers The Divine Comedy dogma. In fact, as I understand it, the previous pope made a statement to the effect that Heaven and Hell are not literal places but states of mind: Heaven is communion with God whereas Hell is isolation from him. It's a really watered down version of Heaven and Hell, but what do you expect from the Church post-Vatican II?
Love without choice is meaningless. God could have creating beings that were under compulsion to love God - but that'd be like me writing for(i=1,i=0,i++) {print "I Love you Legoman05\n"} It would do as it is told, but be totally meaningless.
The choice to sin in the garden was a wholely deliberate choice against God's character - nothing like the 'oops, I just accidently picked this tree,' or 'sorry, my curiosity got the better of me.'
One would argue that he does make it clear - and the only thing you have to do to go to Heaven is what's written in scripture: "Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, and that God raised him from the dead, and you will be saved" - in other words: Ask that what Christ did on the cross be applied to your own life - and you'll have everything wiped away. (Romans 10)
Doesn't get a whole lot easier than that.
On the contrary.
That passage about 'general revelation' - people being judged by their actions who have not known Jesus - is in Romans 1:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
For a good example of this - check out this book. How else, other than the actual presence of God, could an inca conclude that God was trinitarian, and higher than all created beings and objects.
I was always under the impression that Catholics believe that only Catholics are going to heaven... Of course, this could also be another case of painting everyone with one stroke.
Okay, so we have this legal system. God is the judge, pretty much everyone can agree to that. The priest is your lawyer. When you go to Confession, you're basically copping a plea. Penance is community service. Limbo is, to the best of my knowledge, not actually in Church Canon. Purgatory is for misdemeanors, Hell is for felonies.
I tend to think of Purgatory as a prison in a small European nation. I mean, it sucks, 'cause it's prison, but on the other hand your ass isn't rotting in Pelican Bay, your sentence is comprised of a whole lot of counselling, and there's the possibility of parole.
I can't remember how the "appeal to solipsism" argument ends. Can you just cut to the chase?
best answer i have ever read in any religion thread. EVER
Hang on; I'll see if I can find it.
Edit: here's the line I was remembering:
No, the pope didn't really say that. Saint Anslem (later affirmed by Martin Buber) that Sin is not the presence of evil, but the absence of God. Hell, is so horrible, not because of torture etc, but because the shroud of earthly life is removed and you see the truth, which you will never be united with.
Purgatory a la Dante is interesting, because there is torture, but people are so happy, because there is hope.
First of all that is not existential
Second of all you are missing his point
Solipsism != skepticism
Yeah, not familiar with that term/argument.
But just to point out that it is conceivable that one's sensory experience could be flawed/outright wrong. And if that's wrong, what do you trust?
But you go that far, and of course there's no coming back and no room for argument.
In terms of your Grandma's catholicism? Yes. However, there was a letter in 1962 which said that the Catholic church denies "nothing which is true" in other religions. Of course, the big block is Jesus as salvation. However, as Catholics tend to emphasize good deeds more than good faith, it's a lot easier to reconcile a Hindu or atheist getting into heaven for a Catholic than for a Protestant or other Christian.