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Prog and other unlistenable music

PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
edited August 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Actually, I think Tool is some of the worst offenders out there for Metal. I'd much rather a sophomoric or teen angsty metal album resonate with someone than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

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  • WorLordWorLord Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    ...than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

    Simple minds, simple pleasures, eh, Podly?

    WorLord on
    ...privately black.
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    WorLord wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    ...than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

    Simple minds, simple pleasures, eh, Podly?

    That is soooooo pretentious it hurts.

    Seriously, there's more to music that masturbatory guitar solos.

    Wonder_Hippie on
    Your sig was too tall. -Thanatos
    Feral wrote: »
    MikeMan wrote: »
    i'm just a loveologist
    love me some lovin'
    gonna study up on lovin'

    Ain't no problem you can't solve in loveology with a larger sample size.
  • WorLordWorLord Registered User
    edited July 2007
    WorLord wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    ...than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

    Simple minds, simple pleasures, eh, Podly?

    That is soooooo pretentious it hurts.

    So, its bad to like the complicated songs, and you should be ridiculed for that... but if you like simple songs, you're alright.

    Seriously, this whole "pretentious" bullshit is retarded, and sounds more like a cover for being into musicians who can't actually play that well (or choose not to if they can).
    Seriously, there's more to music that masturbatory guitar solos.

    There's also more to life than 4/4 and verse-refrain-verse-refrain-solo-refrain-end.

    WorLord on
    ...privately black.
  • The CheeseThe Cheese Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    you basically said that if you don't like prog-rock you're stupid

    which is a dumb thing to say

    and pretentious

    The Cheese on
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    WorLord wrote: »
    WorLord wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    ...than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

    Simple minds, simple pleasures, eh, Podly?

    That is soooooo pretentious it hurts.

    So, its bad to like the complicated songs, and you should be ridiculed for that... but if you like simple songs, you're alright.

    Seriously, this whole "pretentious" bullshit is retarded, and sounds more like a cover for being into musicians who can't actually play that well (or choose not to if they can).
    Seriously, there's more to music that masturbatory guitar solos.

    There's also more to life than 4/4 and verse-refrain-verse-refrain-solo-refrain-end.

    Dig this, daddy-o. Simple doesn't mean good, but complex doesn't mean good. Often, when a musician focuses on being simple or complex, which many, many bands do, it produces shitty results. What you're saying is that, just because a song is complex, it must have some quality that automatically makes it better than other music. Not so.

    Wonder_Hippie on
    Your sig was too tall. -Thanatos
    Feral wrote: »
    MikeMan wrote: »
    i'm just a loveologist
    love me some lovin'
    gonna study up on lovin'

    Ain't no problem you can't solve in loveology with a larger sample size.
  • real_pochaccoreal_pochacco Registered User
    edited July 2007
    I want someone to explain to me once and for all how music, the pure sound of it, can be pretentious/bloated/ridiculous. Show me lyrics and tell me why. Cause I just don't see it at all.

    real_pochacco on
  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    The Cheese wrote: »
    you basically said that if you don't like prog-rock you're stupid

    which is a dumb thing to say

    and pretentious

    I can forgive someone for not liking Dream Theater. But I will kill every single person who doesn't like Porcupine Tree.

    Every. Single. One.

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  • The CheeseThe Cheese Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Porcupine Tree isn't really overblown and silly though. There's no virtuousic showoffs or anything.

    The Cheese on
  • AJRAJR Been spending most their lives Livin' in the Green Hill paradiseRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Am I the only one who enjoy Dream Theater because of their musical wankery?

    I mean seriously, I genuinely enjoy 15min songs filled with excessive guitar solos, and I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

    AJR on
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  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    AJR wrote: »
    Am I the only one who enjoy Dream Theater because of their musical wankery?

    I mean seriously, I genuinely enjoy 15min songs filled with excessive guitar solos, and I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

    There's nothing overtly wrong with that, it's just that, for the most part, it's pointless, and complex for the sake of complexity.

    The assertion was made, however, that if you don't like that, you must be a dullard.

    Wonder_Hippie on
    Your sig was too tall. -Thanatos
    Feral wrote: »
    MikeMan wrote: »
    i'm just a loveologist
    love me some lovin'
    gonna study up on lovin'

    Ain't no problem you can't solve in loveology with a larger sample size.
  • Anonymous RobotAnonymous Robot Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    Actually, I think Tool is some of the worst offenders out there for Metal. I'd much rather a sophomoric or teen angsty metal album resonate with someone than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

    I remember when you liked Tool and Dream Theater, chile.


    NINJAAAAA

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  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    Actually, I think Tool is some of the worst offenders out there for Metal. I'd much rather a sophomoric or teen angsty metal album resonate with someone than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

    Since when are Dream Theater pretentious? They're probably some of the most down-to-earth musicians out there, unless by pretentious you mean their actual music but that is because it's progressive. I actually find DT's album Awake speaks to me in a way most music doesn't. Awake's lyrics focus is on an urban soul lost, confused, and isolated in his enviroment, and i can connect with some of the stuff I have experienced with confusion and change in life.

    CptKemzik on
  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    AJR wrote: »
    Am I the only one who enjoy Dream Theater because of their musical wankery?

    I mean seriously, I genuinely enjoy 15min songs filled with excessive guitar solos, and I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

    There's nothing overtly wrong with that, it's just that, for the most part, it's pointless, and complex for the sake of complexity.

    Why is it pointless? It's music. If you like it, you like it.

    Cherrn on
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  • Lord Of The PantsLord Of The Pants Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    Actually, I think Tool is some of the worst offenders out there for Metal. I'd much rather a sophomoric or teen angsty metal album resonate with someone than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

    Since when are Dream Theater pretentious? They're probably some of the most down-to-earth musicians out there, unless by pretentious you mean their actual music but that is because it's progressive. I actually find DT's album Awake speaks to me in a way most music doesn't. Awake's lyrics focus is on an urban soul lost, confused, and isolated in his enviroment, and i can connect with some of the stuff I have experienced with confusion and change in life.
    You really think you've seen it all, then you see this...

    :lol:

    Lord Of The Pants on
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  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Is it international asshole day or something?

    Cherrn on
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  • WorLordWorLord Registered User
    edited July 2007
    The Cheese wrote: »
    you basically said that if you don't like prog-rock you're stupid

    In response to the assertion that if you DO like prog rock, you're either being ridiculous or pretentious.

    The Cheese wrote: »
    which is a dumb thing to say

    No dumber than the statement it is responding to.

    The Cheese wrote: »
    and pretentious

    You clearly have little idea of what this word actually means. So stop using it.

    Here's a hint: I think you're stupid if your qualifications for "good music" have anything to do with how complex or simple it is. Dream Theater and Tool have both created some genuinely moving music. Both have also created a lot of shit.

    WorLord on
    ...privately black.
  • WorLordWorLord Registered User
    edited July 2007
    What you're saying is that, just because a song is complex, it must have some quality that automatically makes it better than other music. Not so.

    Actually, I wasn't saying that at all - I think you've read that into it.

    Now, I will offer up that my personal tastes lead me to have greater respect for a good+complex song over a good+simple song. But I will like each piece equally.

    There's nothing overtly wrong with that, it's just that, for the most part, it's pointless, and complex for the sake of complexity.

    This reminds me of a conversation with my wife. She called some of this music "unnecessary". The conversation ended abruptly when my friend asked for a list of music that was strictly necessary.

    Edit (added this): I agree that simple for the sake of, and complex for the sake of, do not make for good music. I disagree with the assertion that DT or Tool are complex simply for the sake of. I think there's actually a lot of good shit from each artist that gets routinely ignored by people simply because it is complicated music, and I think that is a dumb thing to do. It's almost like people think there's something wrong with being able to write and/or play something technically brilliant and extraordinarily difficult, no matter how impactful it might be, and that bothers the shit out of me.

    WorLord on
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  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    I meant to imply that the complexity was pointless, not that the music itself was. They often have a point when making music, and that's to superficially impress people with their technical skill.

    Let me put it this way, and I don't think it's going to be a well-received sentiment, but I'm still going to chuck it out there: when Kim Thayil ripped out one of those crazy, complex, masturbatory riffs that he was just so skilled at, it made sense within the context of the song. Other times, and this especially applies to Dream Theater, the crazy shit doesn't actually make sense within the song, and comes across as "Oh watch what I can dooooo!"

    Wonder_Hippie on
    Your sig was too tall. -Thanatos
    Feral wrote: »
    MikeMan wrote: »
    i'm just a loveologist
    love me some lovin'
    gonna study up on lovin'

    Ain't no problem you can't solve in loveology with a larger sample size.
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Thanks Will.

    Wonder_Hippie on
    Your sig was too tall. -Thanatos
    Feral wrote: »
    MikeMan wrote: »
    i'm just a loveologist
    love me some lovin'
    gonna study up on lovin'

    Ain't no problem you can't solve in loveology with a larger sample size.
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Complexity has no bearing on the quality of music. It is simply a quality of music. Saying that a song's complexity makes it good or bad is like saying that a song is bad becaues it is in the key of Em.

    I remember we had a thread a while ago about Ion Dissonance and comparable musicians - free jazz, weird noise metal, etc. - that didn't come to a satisfying conclusion except that some music is made for the enjoyment of making it, and if they're too busy having fun themselves to entertain you, that's too bad.

    Evil Multifarious on
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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Back when you could download mp3s from the internet, I downloaded a lot of what was termed progressive.

    It involved taking a simple beat/refrain/melody and then adding something new every few iterations. It's quite a traditiional idea/device and it works well. Proggressive trance, techno and DnB all worked particularly well as variations on that theme.

    Prog Rock does not seem to use the term in the same way, and it hurts my ears. Go home Prog rockers.

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  • Shazkar ShadowstormShazkar Shadowstorm Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    There is music I like to listen to, and music I don't like to listen to... but there isn't any music I have a grudge or hatred of. That's kind of silly.

    Shazkar Shadowstorm on
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited July 2007
    Does Rush count as "prog rock"?

    Because that shit, in spite of being terrible, unlistenable, and boring, is like catnip to people who play guitar.

    Irond Will on
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  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I enjoy listening to Tool, but I listen to them for what they are and not what pretentious wankers make them out to be.

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  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Back when you could download mp3s from the internet, I downloaded a lot of what was termed progressive.

    It involved taking a simple beat/refrain/melody and then adding something new every few iterations. It's quite a traditiional idea/device and it works well. Proggressive trance, techno and DnB all worked particularly well as variations on that theme.

    Prog Rock does not seem to use the term in the same way, and it hurts my ears. Go home Prog rockers.
    <3

    I guess the good news is that "unlistenable" prog is of the rock variety, not the good variety.

    Grid System on
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I think the question to ask is: if you like a band like Dream Theatre or Tool, why do you like them?

    Those bands aren't the best ones to ask the question about, because they will often result in the same answer as any other band, ie "I like how they sound," which is the baseline for your normal, everyday aesthetic appreciation of music. You might also get "the lyrics are meaningful to me" which is a normal thing.

    However there are many bands or rather genres that, at first listen, don't make you nod your head or feel energized by being catchy or sounding good. They are very much acquired tastes. I am curious about why people like that really weird stuff.

    Evil Multifarious on
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Back when you could download mp3s from the internet, I downloaded a lot of what was termed progressive.

    It involved taking a simple beat/refrain/melody and then adding something new every few iterations. It's quite a traditiional idea/device and it works well. Proggressive trance, techno and DnB all worked particularly well as variations on that theme.

    Prog Rock does not seem to use the term in the same way, and it hurts my ears. Go home Prog rockers.

    Mdsot of that stuff falls under 'post rock", the most retarded genre name ever. Bands like Mogwai, Explosions in The Sky and Godspeed you Black Emperor are strong users of the repetitious melody style.

    nexuscrawler on
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2007
    evilbob wrote: »
    I enjoy listening to Tool, but I listen to them for what they are and not what pretentious wankers make them out to be.

    This, here. Stop paying so much attention to musical fanboys, people. Its terribly irritating to have people reject a band recommendation out of hand because some asshole they know won't STFU about said band.

    The Cat on
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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2007
    I think the question to ask is: if you like a band like Dream Theatre or Tool, why do you like them?

    Those bands aren't the best ones to ask the question about, because they will often result in the same answer as any other band, ie "I like how they sound," which is the baseline for your normal, everyday aesthetic appreciation of music. You might also get "the lyrics are meaningful to me" which is a normal thing.

    However there are many bands or rather genres that, at first listen, don't make you nod your head or feel energized by being catchy or sounding good. They are very much acquired tastes. I am curious about why people like that really weird stuff.
    Dude, when I was eleven, basically everything on the radio sounded like 'really weird stuff' to me. One grows into new sounds, although there are limits to this.

    The Cat on
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  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Close to the Edge is an amazing album.

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  • xizoesiraxizoesira Registered User
    edited July 2007
    ... that didn't come to a satisfying conclusion except that some music is made for the enjoyment of making it, and if they're too busy having fun themselves to entertain you, that's too bad.

    That is the conclusion, or close enough. Music is born of as many different reasons and aspirations as there are styles of music. Frank Zappa's golden rule: If it sounds good to you, it rocks. If it sounds bad to you, it sucks.

    Every piece of music out there rocks somebody. If a piece of music doesn't do for one what it does for me, that's fine, but if one is going to come vomiting garbage on my sofa about it, one is a dick trying to validate oneself.

    xizoesira on
  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    Actually, I think Tool is some of the worst offenders out there for Metal. I'd much rather a sophomoric or teen angsty metal album resonate with someone than bloated, pretentious, ridiculous prog-metal like Tool and Dream Theater.

    Since when are Dream Theater pretentious? They're probably some of the most down-to-earth musicians out there, unless by pretentious you mean their actual music but that is because it's progressive. I actually find DT's album Awake speaks to me in a way most music doesn't. Awake's lyrics focus is on an urban soul lost, confused, and isolated in his enviroment, and i can connect with some of the stuff I have experienced with confusion and change in life.
    You really think you've seen it all, then you see this...

    :lol:

    Whatever, I look like an idiot fanboy in that post, but this was taken from the album thread. All the more appropiate i guess since really enjoying a particular dream theater album apparently makes me pretentious.

    I understand prog rock is a rather crazy area of music and musical wankery isn't for everyone, but damn I didn't know it was a crime to have a DT or Rush album resonate with someone. I guess i better listen to obscure-indie music like every other trendy music person so that way I can have my taste judged constantly.

    CptKemzik on
  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Or you could listen to Wagner...

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  • WorLordWorLord Registered User
    edited July 2007
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    Whatever, I look like an idiot fanboy in that post, but this was taken from the album thread. All the more appropiate i guess since really enjoying a particular dream theater album apparently makes me pretentious.

    I understand prog rock is a rather crazy area of music and musical wankery isn't for everyone, but damn I didn't know it was a crime to have a DT or Rush album resonate with someone. I guess i better listen to obscure-indie music like every other trendy music person so that way I can have my taste judged constantly.

    Also: my understanding of the term "progressive" as applied to a genre of music means that the genre isn't all that's involved. For example, Progressive Rock (prog rock) is predominantly rock, but also has other styles mixed up in it. Prog Metal = predominantly metal, but with other shit mixed in it. Example: the DT album cover being bandied about the Album thread contains a solo that breaks down into ragtime piano. And, yes, it "makes sense" for it to be there, provided you've been following the plot of the album's lyrics.

    WorLord on
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  • Target PracticeTarget Practice Registered User
    edited July 2007
    I don't even know what prog rock is.

    I mean, if Tool is "prog rock", I've certainly listened to it, but... yeah.
    Podly wrote: »
    Or you could listen to Wagner...

    While reading Mein Kampf.

    Target Practice on
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  • DesertBoxDesertBox Registered User
    edited July 2007
    AJR wrote: »
    Am I the only one who enjoy Dream Theater because of their musical wankery?

    I mean seriously, I genuinely enjoy 15min songs filled with excessive guitar solos, and I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

    There's nothing overtly wrong with that, it's just that, for the most part, it's pointless, and complex for the sake of complexity.

    The assertion was made, however, that if you don't like that, you must be a dullard.

    I don't see how its pointless. I listen to Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, and Yngwie Malmsteem which are all the epitome of musical wankery.

    I play guitar and I like to listen to people who are extremely skilled. I liken it to watching a magician, or the slam dunk contest, or any comparable exhibition. I enjoy it and music is made to be enjoyed, therefore it is not pointless.

    DesertBox on
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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Musicians listen to different music because they have become aware of many different musical principles. I listen to a lot of bands because they have kickass guitar, as a guitarist, and I know a lot of people who are utterly uninterested in them because they themselves don't play guitar.

    I think the crux of it is that many musicians, or people who study music, look at the tastes of non-musicians etc as something inferior, because they are not listening to music with those principles in mind, ie they aren't aware of what makes a really good guitarist, or they aren't aware of the skill necessary to compose a song in this way, etc etc. If someone likes a wankish prog metal band, that's fine, but it's also fine if someone really loves a song that is composed of a whole two chords.

    Evil Multifarious on
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  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    DesertBox wrote: »
    AJR wrote: »
    Am I the only one who enjoy Dream Theater because of their musical wankery?

    I mean seriously, I genuinely enjoy 15min songs filled with excessive guitar solos, and I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

    There's nothing overtly wrong with that, it's just that, for the most part, it's pointless, and complex for the sake of complexity.

    The assertion was made, however, that if you don't like that, you must be a dullard.

    I don't see how its pointless. I listen to Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, and Yngwie Malmsteem which are all the epitome of musical wankery.

    I play guitar and I like to listen to people who are extremely skilled. I liken it to watching a magician, or the slam dunk contest, or any comparable exhibition. I enjoy it and music is made to be enjoyed, therefore it is not pointless.

    See, that's fine. I went through a period when I started to get good at guitar where I LOVED LOVED LOVED Yngwie. Now I still turn it on occasionally, because, the dude is a virtuoso.

    But if Steve Vai is your favorite music, then you are depriving yourself of the depth of music. That stuff's soulless. The vibe that I get from Dream Theater and Tool (I listened to them a lot when I was like 14) is even worse, because they put up the impression of saying somethign truthful and beautiful, but it's all just such mystical pseudo-quippy and pithy sayings that get a boost from overly dramatic music.

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    DesertBox wrote: »
    AJR wrote: »
    Am I the only one who enjoy Dream Theater because of their musical wankery?

    I mean seriously, I genuinely enjoy 15min songs filled with excessive guitar solos, and I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

    There's nothing overtly wrong with that, it's just that, for the most part, it's pointless, and complex for the sake of complexity.

    The assertion was made, however, that if you don't like that, you must be a dullard.

    I don't see how its pointless. I listen to Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, and Yngwie Malmsteem which are all the epitome of musical wankery.

    I play guitar and I like to listen to people who are extremely skilled. I liken it to watching a magician, or the slam dunk contest, or any comparable exhibition. I enjoy it and music is made to be enjoyed, therefore it is not pointless.

    See, that's fine. I went through a period when I started to get good at guitar where I LOVED LOVED LOVED Yngwie. Now I still turn it on occasionally, because, the dude is a virtuoso.

    But if Steve Vai is your favorite music, then you are depriving yourself of the depth of music. That stuff's soulless. The vibe that I get from Dream Theater and Tool (I listened to them a lot when I was like 14) is even worse, because they put up the impression of saying somethign truthful and beautiful, but it's all just such mystical pseudo-quippy and pithy sayings that get a boost from overly dramatic music.

    I think you're ignoring the fact that people get different things out of music, and art in general

    You can listen to music because it's catchy and you want to dance to it, or because it stirs something deep in your soul - but keep in mind that the latter includes Linkin Park fans just as much as anybody else; they just happen to have angry, shallow little teenager souls.

    Evil Multifarious on
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  • DesertBoxDesertBox Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    DesertBox wrote: »
    AJR wrote: »
    Am I the only one who enjoy Dream Theater because of their musical wankery?

    I mean seriously, I genuinely enjoy 15min songs filled with excessive guitar solos, and I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

    There's nothing overtly wrong with that, it's just that, for the most part, it's pointless, and complex for the sake of complexity.

    The assertion was made, however, that if you don't like that, you must be a dullard.

    I don't see how its pointless. I listen to Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, and Yngwie Malmsteem which are all the epitome of musical wankery.

    I play guitar and I like to listen to people who are extremely skilled. I liken it to watching a magician, or the slam dunk contest, or any comparable exhibition. I enjoy it and music is made to be enjoyed, therefore it is not pointless.

    See, that's fine. I went through a period when I started to get good at guitar where I LOVED LOVED LOVED Yngwie. Now I still turn it on occasionally, because, the dude is a virtuoso.

    But if Steve Vai is your favorite music, then you are depriving yourself of the depth of music. That stuff's soulless. The vibe that I get from Dream Theater and Tool (I listened to them a lot when I was like 14) is even worse, because they put up the impression of saying somethign truthful and beautiful, but it's all just such mystical pseudo-quippy and pithy sayings that get a boost from overly dramatic music.

    Well I'd hardly consider Steve Vai my favorite anything, since I agree, he sounds like a robot. However, when I want to hear something that is stupidly hard, it fills that niche. I enjoy it for that and I don't think I would call it bad because it lacks emotion. I'm saying you can enjoy music for different things. Not all of it has to be moving or evocative.

    DesertBox on
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