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Too Human might be done for, Epic Countersuit

IShallRiseAgainIShallRiseAgain Registered User regular
edited August 2007 in Games and Technology
Well it looks like Too Human might have to be canned or at least suffer another long delay from it being released. Epic has filed a counter-suit against Sillicon Knights prior suit, claiming that Epic failed to provide proper tech support. Here are some of the claims of Epic
- Silicon Knights originally wanted Epic to endorse the "suitability" of their engine for Too Human, Epic refused

- Silicon Knights has used Unreal 3 Technology in their own "Silicon Knights Engine"

- Silicon Knights has used UT3 technology with a new Sega partnership without further license

Epic hopes to receive compensation fees, for Silicon Knights to stop using the UT3 engine, and the destruction of infringing goods, which almost certainly means the engine Silicon knights is using for Too Human. If Epic wins the suit, it may well be the final nail in the coffin for the game long in development Too Human.

Discuss.

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IShallRiseAgain on
«1345

Posts

  • arod_77arod_77 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2007
    Good. It was an uninspired piece of shit, but there was some good stuff in there.

    Someone more competent than dyack will salvage it and make it into what it should be

    arod_77 on
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  • LotharsLothars Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I don't blame Epic for countersuing especially since it seems that Too Human will never be released anyway.

    Lothars on
  • taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    epic may still be in the wrong, i mean a countersuit is pretty common practice now for situations like this no? The fact of the matter is right now the public only knows two things, jack and shit.

    taliosfalcon on
    steam xbox - adeptpenguin
  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I was so stoked when this game moved from PSone to Gamecube...

    I am starting to think Silicon Knights wished they were making Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Redemption for the Wii.

    LewieP on
    SavyGamer.co.uk / Twitter
  • LegacyLegacy Stuck Somewhere In Cyberspace The Grid(Seattle)Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    I'm sure they'll just settle out of court and release the game anyway.

    Legacy on
    Can we get the chemicals in. 'Cause anything's better than this.
  • PatboyXPatboyX Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    taliosfalcon wrote: »
    epic may still be in the wrong, i mean a countersuit is pretty common practice now for situations like this no? The fact of the matter is right now the public only knows two things, jack and shit.

    And Jack just left town?

    PatboyX on
    "lenny bruce is not afraid..."
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  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    My gut tells me Silicon Knights is in the right on the suit...

    and their game will be a piece of shit either way.

    Hoz on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Eh, the chances of Too Human coming out are pretty small anyways.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    needs more ketchup

    Rook on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Eh, the chances of Too Human coming out are pretty small anyways.

    You can't help but assume that a game originally meant for the PS1 will probably eventually be cancelled.

    Couscous on
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    taliosfalcon wrote: »
    epic may still be in the wrong, i mean a countersuit is pretty common practice now for situations like this no?

    Its the corporate worlds version of a sibling fight. Somebody started it, but theres really know way to figure out the truth behind it until their father comes home.

    Veevee on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Veevee wrote: »
    taliosfalcon wrote: »
    epic may still be in the wrong, i mean a countersuit is pretty common practice now for situations like this no?

    Its the corporate worlds version of a sibling fight. Somebody started it, but theres really know way to figure out the truth behind it until their father comes home.

    Miyamoto?

    Couscous on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Eh, the chances of Too Human coming out are pretty small anyways.

    You can't help but assume that a game originally meant for the PS1 will probably eventually be cancelled.

    Well Prey was in development for what, 10 years? It's not impossible for Too Human to come out. But considering they've gone through 2 consoles already, I can't imagine it being any good.

    For the love of all that is good, Silicon Knights, lay Too Human to rest.
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • kaliyamakaliyama Left to find less-moderated fora Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    i don't know who's representing either party, but they'd be guilty of malpractice if they didn't file counterclaims.

    kaliyama on
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  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Eh, the chances of Too Human coming out are pretty small anyways.

    You can't help but assume that a game originally meant for the PS1 will probably eventually be cancelled.

    I love how they haven't made a that wasn't originally on the either PSone/N64 in some way over the last decade.

    From Wikipedia -

    * Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain (1996) (Sony PlayStation, PC)
    * Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem (2002) (Nintendo GameCube)
    * Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes (2004) (Nintendo GameCube)

    Eternal Darkness Started like on N64 and Twin Snakes was a PSone remake, and then Too human makes it 4 games.

    LewieP on
    SavyGamer.co.uk / Twitter
  • StoverStover Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Stover on
    outoftheloop.jpg
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Let's put it this way: Too Human is further along the development cycle than Duke Nukem Forever is. I think the most media we have on it is one screenshot from last year. One.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Why does "Epic Countersuit" sound so much like a cheesy animé attack name?

    Mr_Rose on
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  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Let's put it this way: Too Human is further along the development cycle than Duke Nukem Forever is. I think the most media we have on it is one screenshot from last year. One.

    There have been extensive videos of the 360 build, looking quite near complete, shown.

    LewieP on
    SavyGamer.co.uk / Twitter
  • darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    destruction of infringing items? But i thought SK went and made their own engine, since they couldn't work with UE3. I would've thought that would mean the game, as it stood, was safe?
    Also, if the stories about Epic failing to deliver what they were contractually obliged to provide, then i have to be with SK here.

    edit: i see they're accusing SK of building their own engine with parts of UE3. Hm.

    darleysam on
    forumsig.png
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Here's something interesting dragged out of the comments section
    Epic said Silicon Knights accessed Unreal Engine documentation 2,109 times during the evaluation period. The two companies officially entered a commercial licensing agreement in May 2005.

    According to the filing, Epic gave Silicon Knights a "substantial discount" on the license, as the firm allegedly promised Epic to use UE3 exclusively on all of its games for Xbox 360, PS3 and PC.

    and from gamasutra
    Epic has filed a motion to dismiss and counterclaim in its legal battle with developer Silicon Knights, saying, in part, that the developer's suit is "a cynical effort... to unlawfully enrich itself at the expense of Epic Games."

    Epic's motion to dismiss memorandum, sent to Gamasutra by Epic's Mark Rein, says of Silicon Knights that it "used Epic's intellectual property to develop what SK expects will be a commercially lucrative video game that it is about to publicly release," but, "having exploited Epic's intellectual property to its advantage, SK now seeks to renege on its payment obligations under the License Agreement."

    "In short," reads the documents, "SK's lawsuit is a pretense. SK does not have any valid claims against Epic. SK filed suit in a bid to renegotiate the License Agreement, in the hope that Epic will prefer that to the burden of responding to discovery and associated adverse publicity."

    Rook on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Let's put it this way: Too Human is further along the development cycle than Duke Nukem Forever is. I think the most media we have on it is one screenshot from last year. One.

    There have been extensive videos of the 360 build, looking quite near complete, shown.

    Of DNF?

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Let's put it this way: Too Human is further along the development cycle than Duke Nukem Forever is. I think the most media we have on it is one screenshot from last year. One.

    There have been extensive videos of the 360 build, looking quite near complete, shown.

    I think he meant one shot of DNF

    Burtletoy on
  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    LewieP wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Let's put it this way: Too Human is further along the development cycle than Duke Nukem Forever is. I think the most media we have on it is one screenshot from last year. One.

    There have been extensive videos of the 360 build, looking quite near complete, shown.

    Of DNF?
    Oh right, I was talking about Too Human.

    LewieP on
    SavyGamer.co.uk / Twitter
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    We have two pictures of DNF.

    Couscous on
  • StoverStover Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Let's put it this way: Too Human is further along the development cycle than Duke Nukem Forever is. I think the most media we have on it is one screenshot from last year. One.

    Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up SHUT UP

    Stover on
    outoftheloop.jpg
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    darleysam wrote: »
    destruction of infringing items? But i thought SK went and made their own engine, since they couldn't work with UE3. I would've thought that would mean the game, as it stood, was safe?
    Also, if the stories about Epic failing to deliver what they were contractually obliged to provide, then i have to be with SK here.



    The SK engine is just a heavily modified UE3 engine. They even say so in the lawsuit.
    "In fact, at this juncture the Silicon Knights Engine should, at a minimum, be described under the Agreement as an “Enhancement” of Epic’s Engine, which, as defined by the Agreement, is technology developed by Silicon Knights that improves upon the Engine and is therefore the property of Silicon Knights. Moreover, as development of the Silicon Knights Engine continues, the amount of code from Epic’s Engine employed by Silicon Knights continues to decrease. After the release of Silicon Knights’ Too Human, all Epic code will be removed from the Silicon Knights Engine."

    Rook on
  • darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Rook wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    destruction of infringing items? But i thought SK went and made their own engine, since they couldn't work with UE3. I would've thought that would mean the game, as it stood, was safe?
    Also, if the stories about Epic failing to deliver what they were contractually obliged to provide, then i have to be with SK here.



    The SK engine is just a heavily modified UE3 engine. They even say so in the lawsuit.
    "In fact, at this juncture the Silicon Knights Engine should, at a minimum, be described under the Agreement as an “Enhancement” of Epic’s Engine, which, as defined by the Agreement, is technology developed by Silicon Knights that improves upon the Engine and is therefore the property of Silicon Knights. Moreover, as development of the Silicon Knights Engine continues, the amount of code from Epic’s Engine employed by Silicon Knights continues to decrease. After the release of Silicon Knights’ Too Human, all Epic code will be removed from the Silicon Knights Engine."

    yeah, i read that bit afterwards.

    darleysam on
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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Let's put it this way: Too Human is further along the development cycle than Duke Nukem Forever is. I think the most media we have on it is one screenshot from last year. One.

    Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up SHUT UP

    I see your perfectly reasonable counter argument and raise you an " ABLOOABLOOABLOO".
    DNF 4eva!

    Mr_Rose on
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  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Stover wrote: »
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Also kill off Duke Nukem Forever, you're just hurting your fans

    Fuck you.

    I want to believe.

    Let's put it this way: Too Human is further along the development cycle than Duke Nukem Forever is. I think the most media we have on it is one screenshot from last year. One.

    Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up SHUT UP

    I see your perfectly reasonable counter argument and raise you an " ABLOOABLOOABLOO".

    [fix'dSPOILER]DNF developement cycle 4eva![/SPOILER]

    Burtletoy on
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    So SK files a suit seeking damages because the Unreal engine sucks and they didn't provide proper support.

    And Epic is countersuing because SK swiped big chunks of the Unreal engine for their own section.

    I really don't know who to root for and who to boo here.

    cloudeagle on
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  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Why does "Epic Countersuit" sound so much like a cheesy animé attack name?

    The plaintiff, Silicon Knights, alleges that Epic Games violated their contractual obliga-

    a_med_eg_rev_phoenix_004.jpg

    BubbaT on
  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    So SK files a suit seeking damages because the Unreal engine sucks and they didn't provide proper support.

    And Epic is countersuing because SK swiped big chunks of the Unreal engine for their own section.

    I really don't know who to root for and who to boo here.

    Whoever wins, gamers loose.

    LewieP on
    SavyGamer.co.uk / Twitter
  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Hoz wrote: »
    My gut tells me Silicon Knights is in the right on the suit...

    Your gut and just about every interview with any developer who has used the Unreal 3 Engine.

    Accualt on
  • zilozilo Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Accualt wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    My gut tells me Silicon Knights is in the right on the suit...

    Your gut and just about every interview with any developer who has used the Unreal 3 Engine.

    Somebody who's worked with it told me the documentation for UE3 fits on three pieces of paper.

    zilo on
  • FreddyDFreddyD Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Accualt wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    My gut tells me Silicon Knights is in the right on the suit...

    Your gut and just about every interview with any developer who has used the Unreal 3 Engine.
    The team behind Undertow practically wrote a love poem about Epic and their engine. I don't really know who to believe.

    FreddyD on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Wouldn't other developers have come out in support of SK by now? I mean if they win everyone who uses the engine could potentially benefit. I think the issue isn't cut and dry.

    Preacher on
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  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    FreddyD wrote: »
    Accualt wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    My gut tells me Silicon Knights is in the right on the suit...

    Your gut and just about every interview with any developer who has used the Unreal 3 Engine.
    The team behind Undertow practically wrote a love poem about Epic and their engine. I don't really know who to believe.

    Undertow is an XBLA title so I don't imagine it is going to be fully using the U3E plus it is a more recent title. There was a list of every game that uses U3E and their current status. Every single one was either pushed back from original release date or canceled. Then you've got the interviews with developers saying they've had to pretty much entirely rewrite the engine.
    I'm sure SK is puffing up their complaints to be a bigger deal than they actually are but it appears to me that the U3E was like Perfect Dark Zero: hyped to heaven and back only to turn out as a bit of a disappointment.

    Accualt on
  • RaughnRaughn Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    One of Epic's more important claims, taken from 1up:
    The actual language of the License agreement says nothing about delivery of a "fully operational version" of the Unreal Engine 3 within six months of release of the Xbox 2. Nor does it say anything about a "commercially viable" version," reads the documents. "Rather, the warranty was significantly narrower and specified only that Epic would be able to "demonstrate" that its Unreal Engine 3 will operate on the Xbox 2 in the time specified. ... This did also not require that the Unreal Engine be free of glitches or compatible with SK's intended uses, or guarantee that glitches, defects or bugs in the system could be corrected.

    This should be interesting.

    Raughn on
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Raughn wrote: »
    One of Epic's more important claims, taken from 1up:
    The actual language of the License agreement says nothing about delivery of a "fully operational version" of the Unreal Engine 3 within six months of release of the Xbox 2. Nor does it say anything about a "commercially viable" version," reads the documents. "Rather, the warranty was significantly narrower and specified only that Epic would be able to "demonstrate" that its Unreal Engine 3 will operate on the Xbox 2 in the time specified. ... This did also not require that the Unreal Engine be free of glitches or compatible with SK's intended uses, or guarantee that glitches, defects or bugs in the system could be corrected.

    This should be interesting.

    Thats sounds an awful lot like Epic saying "Ha, our product is ALLOWED to suck. Take that Silicon Knights!"

    Burtletoy on
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