So the main complaint against FR is that too many gm's suck? If your problem with a world is that there are people more powerful and higher level than you, it makes you sound like a baby who's complaining that he doesn't get to be the badass by default.
In ANY good campaign world, the pc's will not be the most powerful people around, that's just how the world works.
If a gun has the tendency to make people who are not expert marksmen shoot themselves in the foot, is it a "good" gun?
Not all FR games are bad. FR is constructed in such a way that it takes greater than average skill to justify the PC's feeling like valid heroes. While plenty of DMs have the chops to avoid this issue if any random group grabs FR and starts playing it they're very likely to start asking these questions and a novice DM is unlikely to have answers that satisfy.
I do choose to view this as a fault in the campaign setting. A setting which encourages a common DM flaw (Dues ex Elminster) is a setting with a strike against it.
I don't think it invalidates the setting or anything but this along with some style issues is why I dislike it.
t Arcanist - I may have overreacted as well. I was just annoyed and tired.
Exactly; why the hell would you want to be Plastic Man when your competition for fame and glory is the Green Lantern, or Batman, or even Superman?
Dude, Plastic Man is awesome.
In any case, I like FR more for the low-level type games. With the kind of adventures that wouldn't attract the big names. But it's true you can do that just as well or better in Eberron or Greyhawk or whatever, and those also allow more heroic high level play.
I just like to read FR fluff, really, I don't think I've ever played a FR game.
A gun is a gun.
Similarly, a campaign setting is just that, a setting. A framework for your own story. None of the fluff in the books is required, and it's child's play to set your own game either before or after the big heroes time. If you're complaining that a setting is too restricting, then you're taking the wrong perspective on it. Take what you want out of the fluff, and toss the rest. It's your campaign, after all.
The program looks crap to me, to be honest. So, you are giving it graphics to make it look cooler? Then eventually, you might want to add more animations to make the characters move more believably. And some AI programming for the NPC's. And then you have managed to turn D&D into a crappy JRPG.
The more abstract the miniatures and the maps, the better. I can understand the need for a map to keep track of the fights, but something this elaborate will just distract me and my imagination. I don't want to have to look at (or design as a DM) a mediocre 3d world, when the world is supposed to be in my mind.
Also, this kind of tool seems to be made for the 90% fighting dungeon crawl kind of roleplaying that is so prevalent in the premade adventures they sell.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited August 2007
for the record, plastic man is one of the most powerful dc superheroes
so that's kind of a bad point
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
for the record, plastic man is one of the most powerful dc superheroes
so that's kind of a bad point
Yeah, but who gets their own movies?
If, when you describe their powers to a layman, which of those four (PM, GL, Bats and Supes) is most likely to get confused with someone else entirely?
It's not about power, it's about who people think about when they list "the greatest superheroes of all time".
....yea, clearly the answer is to not make any qualitative assessment of value at all. I have this setting, it's called "PyschoCucumber says stupid fucking things so let's mock him for it." By your statement above (that you can't call a gun bad based upon it's qualities in fulfilling the role of a gun) this is as valid and complete a setting as FR. (Which is a ludicrous statement but not half so ludicrous as what you just said.)
Similarly, a campaign setting is just that, a setting. A framework for your own story. None of the fluff in the books is required, and it's child's play to set your own game either before or after the big heroes time. If you're complaining that a setting is too restricting, then you're taking the wrong perspective on it. Take what you want out of the fluff, and toss the rest. It's your campaign, after all.
I agree when you completely ignore a setting then any setting is perfect for the kind of game you happen to be running at the time you don't use the setting.
Settings that need to be heavily modified or altered are little use as settings. They can be use as inspiration and such like but that's not the same use as a setting. To be clear: I don't think FR falls into that category of only a resource from which to mine ideas.
Jedi do you still play LG? I'm way out of touch with all my old contacts in there, I'm curious how they treated the huge number of volunteers who made LG happen.
It'd just occurred to me that there must be some massive nerd rage going on. I think it'd be pretty justifiable if they hadn't been given any warning that it was all going to end in a year.
This may have been public knowledge that it was going to end, but I'm way out of it for over a year now.
Yes, there seems to be a great deal of it. This is pretty much out of left field, and the worst part of it is that the WotC folks would shut down any player-run Living Greyhawk stuff too, citing intellectual property issues and whatnot. I know I am pissed, a great deal, because honestly.
Fuck Forgotten Realms. It fucking sucks, and I don't want to play it. Fuck it to hell. Fuck you wizards.
I know the massive amount of time that local people put into making work was ridiculous. This isn't the first time where they would have treated these volunteers like shit. These volunteers that are the only reason they have such massive Organized Play numbers to brag about...
I don't really know what the alternative would be though. LC proved that a conversion between editions is a suicidally bad idea. Somehow I'd expect the outrage to be worse if they just rebooted the campaign since the outrage would be from the players. (Though I imagine the players are not too happy with this either.)
Nice to see that the RPGA is still a caring and considerate organization.
for the record, plastic man is one of the most powerful dc superheroes
so that's kind of a bad point
Yeah, but who gets their own movies?
If, when you describe their powers to a layman, which of those four (PM, GL, Bats and Supes) is most likely to get confused with someone else entirely?
It's not about power, it's about who people think about when they list "the greatest superheroes of all time".
It's all summed up in that one episode of Justice League Unlimited, where they relegate crowd control duty to Booster Gold....
...and every single civilian gets him mistaken for Green Lantern....and then gets disappointed when he tells them that no, he is, in fact, Booster Gold.
Why are pistols still made when automatic weapons exist? Why are infantry still used while tanks exist? Why are normal troops still used while Rangers and Seals exist? Because there are different tools for different jobs. Special forces can't handle every job because there aren't enough of them. Elminster cannot handle every job because it's a big fucking planet, and he can't be assed to take care of some douchebag bandits, because he's stopping the evil ultra-mega wizard.
Why is this even an issue? Do your players frequently complain that Elminster ISN'T saving their asses? Just don't put him in the damn adventure and tell your players that he's busy doing something else.
Why are pistols still made when automatic weapons exist? Why are infantry still used while tanks exist? Why are normal troops still used while Rangers and Seals exist? Because there are different tools for different jobs. Special forces can't handle every job because there aren't enough of them. Elminster cannot handle every job because it's a big fucking planet, and he can't be assed to take care of some douchebag bandits, because he's stopping the evil ultra-mega wizard.
Why is this even an issue? Do your players frequently complain that Elminster ISN'T saving their asses? Just don't put him in the damn adventure and tell your players that he's busy doing something else.
You basically described the problem.
I'm level fucking 15, I don't wanna fuck bandits, I wanna take on dragons!
Oh wait, Elminster and Drizzt already raped all the dragons in this area.
Well, what about liches or something?
Nope, all gone.
Uhm..........high-level evil cleric?
Guess again.
If you say that I can fuck bandits I'm leaving.
It's a LOT of bandits......
In a setting where high level players cant stop the high level evils because there are NPCs that are better suited and more likely to do the job, theres no reason to play it past level 10.
Basically, you dont send the kansas city police to catch Hitler.
Why are pistols still made when automatic weapons exist? Why are infantry still used while tanks exist? Why are normal troops still used while Rangers and Seals exist? Because there are different tools for different jobs. Special forces can't handle every job because there aren't enough of them. Elminster cannot handle every job because it's a big fucking planet, and he can't be assed to take care of some douchebag bandits, because he's stopping the evil ultra-mega wizard.
Why is this even an issue? Do your players frequently complain that Elminster ISN'T saving their asses? Just don't put him in the damn adventure and tell your players that he's busy doing something else.
maybe i'm sick of taking care of bandits and would like to handle the ultra-mega wizard.
elminster isn't the only one. what's drizzt off doing? where's wulfgar?
The problem with Faerun is that there are so many high-level characters already there that have such a huge impact on the setting that you can't just ignore them. The world is being threatened? Well, where the fuck is Elminster? There's no way he's going to leave this to a couple of nobody adventurers!
He'll be ready to handle it as soon as he's done nailing Mystra.
This is why I love Eberron; because after a few levels, you are heroes, and you are handling stuff nobody else in the setting can handle. In the Forgotten Realms, there are tons of people who can handle stuff you'll never be able to handle, so why bother? You'll always be second tier, up to and even into epic levels.
I've never played Forgotten Realms, but I think it might suffer from the huge amount of fiction that's been produced and is produced for it. Elminster, Drizzt, Random Epic Hero #6, wouldn't be so wide spread if the fiction didn't make them out to be such.
Sure a good DM could easily fix it all, but for the average DM, it's a bit overwhelming.
Again: Why is this even a problem? Just put some damn dragons in there and say that Elminster was busy. Come on, Big E is level what, 32? Even high level clerics, dragons, liches - they're all just about beneath his purview. It's a big world out there, there should be plenty of stuff to do.
Hell, I played in FR for a while - I met Drizzt...once. That was it. The rest of the time we were doing our own thing. I still don't see why it's a flaw with the world, as opposed to a flaw with the GM.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
edited August 2007
Jesus Christ, guys.
Elminster is plane hopping more often then not, and while his window of vision is FAR, he relies on the Harpers to do most of his wetwork and recon in the world. So the harpers, stressed from the incursion of orcs which have besieged Mithril Hall and the lands north of it, have shifted their eyes westward.
In the East, Thay has taken this moment of less watchful eyes to launch an offense against bordering Aglarond. Word of the falling of the Watchwall has spread to Velprintalar, the capitol... and the Simbul, ruler of the country, has called for a raising of arms to defend the land.
You, a fellow band of adventurers, find yourself in a tavern in the capitol city when the cry for war goes out. The borders are shut down, and people ready themselves for war... and profit.
You could go anywhere with this hook, or build hundreds of others like it with the setting. If your DM couldn't think of a way for your adventurers to become heroes int he realms, it was his/her fault. Plain and simple.
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Again: Why is this even a problem? Just put some damn dragons in there and say that Elminster was busy. Come on, Big E is level what, 32? Even high level clerics, dragons, liches - they're all just about beneath his purview. It's a big world out there, there should be plenty of stuff to do.
Hell, I played in FR for a while - I met Drizzt...once. That was it. The rest of the time we were doing our own thing. I still don't see why it's a flaw with the world, as opposed to a flaw with the GM.
Because saying, "Elminster's just busy," is writing off a pretty major part of the setting.
Like, "We're playing in the Forgotten Realms. No, there's not gonna be an Underdark in this one."
You can do it, but if you make ignore parts like that, then you're really not using the setting as it's presented. It's true, in the above example, that you'll never need to go to the Underdark anyway; just like it's possible that you'll never need to run into Drizzt or Elminster or...
But what if you should because the world is being threatened, the entire region, because a fleet of dragons are about to eat up the Ten Towns or fuck up some of Mystra's people? You think Drizzt or Elminster won't be all over that?
Why not just, y'no, use a setting that isn't defined by high-level NPCs instead of writing off a huge portion of their background because it's inconvenient? Like I said before, you shouldn't have to work around the setting.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Why not just, y'no, use a setting that isn't defined by high-level NPCs instead of writing off a huge portion of their background because it's inconvenient? Like I said before, you shouldn't have to work around the setting.
The realms is defined by so much more than the high level NPCs, and if your DM or group can't get around that, then the issue lies at your table.
It is so easy to make an exploration game, or an assist in the war game, or a long drawn out plot of deception and espionage via the various secret societies (that yes, are run by high level NPCs... but so would any country in a high mana setting)... or any other kind of game you want to run.
I assume that you would never want to play in a superhero tabletop that was from DC, or Marvel, or Mutants and Masterminds.... because all of those potential games are corrupted by the fact that wolverine or Batman exists.
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INeedNoSaltwith blood on my teethRegistered Userregular
Why not just, y'no, use a setting that isn't defined by high-level NPCs instead of writing off a huge portion of their background because it's inconvenient? Like I said before, you shouldn't have to work around the setting.
The realms is defined by so much more than the high level NPCs, and if your DM or group can't get around that, then the issue lies at your table.
It is so easy to make an exploration game, or an assist in the war game, or a long drawn out plot of deception and espionage via the various secret societies (that yes, are run by high level NPCs... but so would any country in a high mana setting)... or any other kind of game you want to run.
I assume that you would never want to play in a superhero tabletop that was from DC, or Marvel, or Mutants and Masterminds.... because all of those potential games are corrupted by the fact that wolverine or Batman exists.
Mutants and Masterminds is just a gaming system, so, uh. /shrug at that. No, I wouldn't really want to play in a DC or Marvel based Heroes game.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Why not just, y'no, use a setting that isn't defined by high-level NPCs instead of writing off a huge portion of their background because it's inconvenient? Like I said before, you shouldn't have to work around the setting.
The realms is defined by so much more than the high level NPCs, and if your DM or group can't get around that, then the issue lies at your table.
It is so easy to make an exploration game, or an assist in the war game, or a long drawn out plot of deception and espionage via the various secret societies (that yes, are run by high level NPCs... but so would any country in a high mana setting)... or any other kind of game you want to run.
I assume that you would never want to play in a superhero tabletop that was from DC, or Marvel, or Mutants and Masterminds.... because all of those potential games are corrupted by the fact that wolverine or Batman exists.
Mutants and Masterminds is just a gaming system, so, uh. /shrug at that. No, I wouldn't really want to play in a DC or Marvel based Heroes game.
M&M is also built around... whatisit... Freedom City?
Filled with well over a hundred heroes. In one city. varying powerlevels.
That fucking place is already fully covered at any PL challenge.
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]M&M is also built around... whatisit... Freedom City?.
M&M isn't really built around Freedom City, and is featured only in rulebook's demo adventure. But I do agree with you that pre-defined NPCs shouldn't be problem with running Forgotten Realms campaign. My own personal problem with FR is that it is a kitchen sink, setting that tries to do everything, but not really excelling in anything. Same goes for Greyhawk.
Why not just, y'no, use a setting that isn't defined by high-level NPCs instead of writing off a huge portion of their background because it's inconvenient? Like I said before, you shouldn't have to work around the setting.
The realms is defined by so much more than the high level NPCs, and if your DM or group can't get around that, then the issue lies at your table.
It is so easy to make an exploration game, or an assist in the war game, or a long drawn out plot of deception and espionage via the various secret societies (that yes, are run by high level NPCs... but so would any country in a high mana setting)... or any other kind of game you want to run.
I assume that you would never want to play in a superhero tabletop that was from DC, or Marvel, or Mutants and Masterminds.... because all of those potential games are corrupted by the fact that wolverine or Batman exists.
Here you make a good point. I play in a superhero tabletop set in the Marvel verse. It's fine. Yeah, we run into Spidey and Wolverine and the like...but we also get to do things like fight the Juggernaut by ourselves. We fight alongside iconic heroes ALOT, and while they outclass the shit out of us, we've been indispensable, mostly due to the combination of our melle whore, "Scrapper" whose rolls are insane, but only when he's trying not to pass out from being badly wounded (and thus never goes down until the fight is over), our ranged whore, "DeadAim" firing off tranq darts all over the damn place, and myself, "Morgue", an ex-nazi Necromancer/Illusionist - I just think of crazy support ideas, like making villains who have themselves behind a force field think that it's filling with water.
So I guess if FR was done right, you wouldn't so much be COMPETING with Drizzt and such, but fighting alongside them, if you even met them at all, as people have been saying.
Color me mostly convinced. Not that I'll be playing in FR anytime soon, but I can at least understand why people do it now.
But what if you should because the world is being threatened, the entire region, because a fleet of dragons are about to eat up the Ten Towns or fuck up some of Mystra's people? You think Drizzt or Elminster won't be all over that?
Ok, let's say that does happen. And let's say that Drizzt and Elminster BOTH are all over it.
A) Is your party seriously strong enough to take on a Fleet of dragons? If not, then this isn't even an issue, because you're not taking on a fleet of dragons. The npc's are doing this anyway.
Assuming that the dragons were sent for a purpose, did the people sending them realize that Drizzt and Elminster would wreck their shit, and plan accordingly for it? Did they wait until Drizzt was in the Underdark and Elminster was in the astral plane? Did they have a contingency plan for distracting them while the dragons do their business?
C) Even if the npc's end up standing side by side with all the high level heroes, do you think they could stop all the dragons simultaneously? Will people still die from the attack? Do they honestly have nothing to do but sit back and sip margaritas while the npc's handle it?
Seriously, this isn't that hard. Batman still manages to find things to do in a world with Superman in it. Hell, the same is even true for Drizzt vs. Elminster. Elminster is LEAGUES more powerful than Drizzt, yet he still manages to find plenty of adventure for himself, that don't involve waiting for Elminster to show up and save his bacon.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited August 2007
the superhero examples in this thread are terrible
Why not just, y'no, use a setting that isn't defined by high-level NPCs instead of writing off a huge portion of their background because it's inconvenient? Like I said before, you shouldn't have to work around the setting.
The realms is defined by so much more than the high level NPCs, and if your DM or group can't get around that, then the issue lies at your table.
It is so easy to make an exploration game, or an assist in the war game, or a long drawn out plot of deception and espionage via the various secret societies (that yes, are run by high level NPCs... but so would any country in a high mana setting)... or any other kind of game you want to run.
I assume that you would never want to play in a superhero tabletop that was from DC, or Marvel, or Mutants and Masterminds.... because all of those potential games are corrupted by the fact that wolverine or Batman exists.
If Batman ascended to a level of power rivaling that of God himself, yes, I would not want to play that game.
Ebberon. I thought that Ebberon was going to be their new flagship?
Oh, it all makes sense. Now that Ebberon is in the picture, they give away FR, because lets be honest, who gives a fuck? Gets a lot of the older enthusiasts back, and gives people new to the game a flashy introduction with uber high-power, and then after their first campaign, they go looking around for places where the fluffy setting allows them to make a difference.
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited August 2007
I prefer Eberron myself here.
But, man, some of the best CRPG's ever created told epic, far-reaching stories in the Forgotten Realms where Elminster and Drizzt were limited to cameo roles at best. Hell, the former had, what, maybe three scenes in the entire series?
A lack of creativity is something I'm sensing here.
But, man, some of the best CRPG's ever created told epic, far-reaching stories in the Forgotten Realms where Elminster and Drizzt were limited to cameo roles at best. Hell, the former had, what, maybe three scenes in the entire series?
A lack of creativity is something I'm sensing here.
baldur's gate kind of got around the 'less useful than the major npcs' by putting your character on the the same sort of level as a major npc, didn't it? I never played it through, it bored the crap out of me, but I don't think that sort of 'creativity' is exactly something standard in tabletop games.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited August 2007
Nope, you started out as a level 1 punk like everyone else.
The only thing special was your lineage, which didn't even factor into anything useful gameplay-wise until half-way through the second game.
And even then, whether it was actually a useful ability was debatable.
Edit: now that I think of it, there WERE abilities given to the player, but all I can remember was a single casting of CLW.
Nope, you started out as a level 1 punk like everyone else.
The only thing special was your lineage, which didn't even factor into anything useful gameplay-wise until half-way through the second game.
And even then, whether it was actually a useful ability was debatable.
Edit: now that I think of it, there WERE abilities given to the player, but all I can remember was a single casting of CLW.
Well, I didn't mean level as in character level - even Elminster started out as a level 1 rogue.
Actually, I think he started as a Level 1 Fighter - he worked with the mercenaries before he spent time being a fucking awesome catburglar in that one city....and then he went to cleric....and then finally wizard. Took him long fucking enough.
Nope, you started out as a level 1 punk like everyone else.
The only thing special was your lineage, which didn't even factor into anything useful gameplay-wise until half-way through the second game.
And even then, whether it was actually a useful ability was debatable.
Edit: now that I think of it, there WERE abilities given to the player, but all I can remember was a single casting of CLW.
Well, I didn't mean level as in character level - even Elminster started out as a level 1 rogue.
Actually, I think he started as a Level 1 Fighter - he worked with the mercenaries before he spent time being a fucking awesome catburglar in that one city....and then he went to cleric....and then finally wizard. Took him long fucking enough.
Nope, you started out as a level 1 punk like everyone else.
The only thing special was your lineage, which didn't even factor into anything useful gameplay-wise until half-way through the second game.
And even then, whether it was actually a useful ability was debatable.
Edit: now that I think of it, there WERE abilities given to the player, but all I can remember was a single casting of CLW.
Well, I didn't mean level as in character level - even Elminster started out as a level 1 rogue.
Actually, I think he started as a Level 1 Fighter - he worked with the mercenaries before he spent time being a fucking awesome catburglar in that one city....and then he went to cleric....and then finally wizard. Took him long fucking enough.
Posts
If a gun has the tendency to make people who are not expert marksmen shoot themselves in the foot, is it a "good" gun?
Not all FR games are bad. FR is constructed in such a way that it takes greater than average skill to justify the PC's feeling like valid heroes. While plenty of DMs have the chops to avoid this issue if any random group grabs FR and starts playing it they're very likely to start asking these questions and a novice DM is unlikely to have answers that satisfy.
I do choose to view this as a fault in the campaign setting. A setting which encourages a common DM flaw (Dues ex Elminster) is a setting with a strike against it.
I don't think it invalidates the setting or anything but this along with some style issues is why I dislike it.
t Arcanist - I may have overreacted as well. I was just annoyed and tired.
Dude, Plastic Man is awesome.
In any case, I like FR more for the low-level type games. With the kind of adventures that wouldn't attract the big names. But it's true you can do that just as well or better in Eberron or Greyhawk or whatever, and those also allow more heroic high level play.
I just like to read FR fluff, really, I don't think I've ever played a FR game.
Similarly, a campaign setting is just that, a setting. A framework for your own story. None of the fluff in the books is required, and it's child's play to set your own game either before or after the big heroes time. If you're complaining that a setting is too restricting, then you're taking the wrong perspective on it. Take what you want out of the fluff, and toss the rest. It's your campaign, after all.
The more abstract the miniatures and the maps, the better. I can understand the need for a map to keep track of the fights, but something this elaborate will just distract me and my imagination. I don't want to have to look at (or design as a DM) a mediocre 3d world, when the world is supposed to be in my mind.
Also, this kind of tool seems to be made for the 90% fighting dungeon crawl kind of roleplaying that is so prevalent in the premade adventures they sell.
so that's kind of a bad point
If, when you describe their powers to a layman, which of those four (PM, GL, Bats and Supes) is most likely to get confused with someone else entirely?
It's not about power, it's about who people think about when they list "the greatest superheroes of all time".
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....yea, clearly the answer is to not make any qualitative assessment of value at all. I have this setting, it's called "PyschoCucumber says stupid fucking things so let's mock him for it." By your statement above (that you can't call a gun bad based upon it's qualities in fulfilling the role of a gun) this is as valid and complete a setting as FR. (Which is a ludicrous statement but not half so ludicrous as what you just said.)
I agree when you completely ignore a setting then any setting is perfect for the kind of game you happen to be running at the time you don't use the setting.
Settings that need to be heavily modified or altered are little use as settings. They can be use as inspiration and such like but that's not the same use as a setting. To be clear: I don't think FR falls into that category of only a resource from which to mine ideas.
I sure do like those forgotten realms.
How exciting for me.
Maybe the first four modules will have to do with how Elmenstor visits the players, and teaches them how to adventure. Oh yes, I'm so excited.
Yes.
Yes.
This may have been public knowledge that it was going to end, but I'm way out of it for over a year now.
Fuck Forgotten Realms. It fucking sucks, and I don't want to play it. Fuck it to hell. Fuck you wizards.
I don't really know what the alternative would be though. LC proved that a conversion between editions is a suicidally bad idea. Somehow I'd expect the outrage to be worse if they just rebooted the campaign since the outrage would be from the players. (Though I imagine the players are not too happy with this either.)
Nice to see that the RPGA is still a caring and considerate organization.
It's all summed up in that one episode of Justice League Unlimited, where they relegate crowd control duty to Booster Gold....
...and every single civilian gets him mistaken for Green Lantern....and then gets disappointed when he tells them that no, he is, in fact, Booster Gold.
Source?
And please god be a rumor.
edit: right on the official WOTC forums:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=908402
Son of a bitch.
Why are pistols still made when automatic weapons exist? Why are infantry still used while tanks exist? Why are normal troops still used while Rangers and Seals exist? Because there are different tools for different jobs. Special forces can't handle every job because there aren't enough of them. Elminster cannot handle every job because it's a big fucking planet, and he can't be assed to take care of some douchebag bandits, because he's stopping the evil ultra-mega wizard.
Why is this even an issue? Do your players frequently complain that Elminster ISN'T saving their asses? Just don't put him in the damn adventure and tell your players that he's busy doing something else.
You basically described the problem.
I'm level fucking 15, I don't wanna fuck bandits, I wanna take on dragons!
Oh wait, Elminster and Drizzt already raped all the dragons in this area.
Well, what about liches or something?
Nope, all gone.
Uhm..........high-level evil cleric?
Guess again.
If you say that I can fuck bandits I'm leaving.
It's a LOT of bandits......
In a setting where high level players cant stop the high level evils because there are NPCs that are better suited and more likely to do the job, theres no reason to play it past level 10.
Basically, you dont send the kansas city police to catch Hitler.
maybe i'm sick of taking care of bandits and would like to handle the ultra-mega wizard.
elminster isn't the only one. what's drizzt off doing? where's wulfgar?
The problem with Faerun is that there are so many high-level characters already there that have such a huge impact on the setting that you can't just ignore them. The world is being threatened? Well, where the fuck is Elminster? There's no way he's going to leave this to a couple of nobody adventurers!
He'll be ready to handle it as soon as he's done nailing Mystra.
This is why I love Eberron; because after a few levels, you are heroes, and you are handling stuff nobody else in the setting can handle. In the Forgotten Realms, there are tons of people who can handle stuff you'll never be able to handle, so why bother? You'll always be second tier, up to and even into epic levels.
Sure a good DM could easily fix it all, but for the average DM, it's a bit overwhelming.
Hell, I played in FR for a while - I met Drizzt...once. That was it. The rest of the time we were doing our own thing. I still don't see why it's a flaw with the world, as opposed to a flaw with the GM.
Elminster is plane hopping more often then not, and while his window of vision is FAR, he relies on the Harpers to do most of his wetwork and recon in the world. So the harpers, stressed from the incursion of orcs which have besieged Mithril Hall and the lands north of it, have shifted their eyes westward.
In the East, Thay has taken this moment of less watchful eyes to launch an offense against bordering Aglarond. Word of the falling of the Watchwall has spread to Velprintalar, the capitol... and the Simbul, ruler of the country, has called for a raising of arms to defend the land.
You, a fellow band of adventurers, find yourself in a tavern in the capitol city when the cry for war goes out. The borders are shut down, and people ready themselves for war... and profit.
You could go anywhere with this hook, or build hundreds of others like it with the setting. If your DM couldn't think of a way for your adventurers to become heroes int he realms, it was his/her fault. Plain and simple.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
My sweet, untouched Miranda
And while the seagulls are crying
We fall but our souls are flying
Because saying, "Elminster's just busy," is writing off a pretty major part of the setting.
Like, "We're playing in the Forgotten Realms. No, there's not gonna be an Underdark in this one."
You can do it, but if you make ignore parts like that, then you're really not using the setting as it's presented. It's true, in the above example, that you'll never need to go to the Underdark anyway; just like it's possible that you'll never need to run into Drizzt or Elminster or...
But what if you should because the world is being threatened, the entire region, because a fleet of dragons are about to eat up the Ten Towns or fuck up some of Mystra's people? You think Drizzt or Elminster won't be all over that?
Why not just, y'no, use a setting that isn't defined by high-level NPCs instead of writing off a huge portion of their background because it's inconvenient? Like I said before, you shouldn't have to work around the setting.
It is so easy to make an exploration game, or an assist in the war game, or a long drawn out plot of deception and espionage via the various secret societies (that yes, are run by high level NPCs... but so would any country in a high mana setting)... or any other kind of game you want to run.
I assume that you would never want to play in a superhero tabletop that was from DC, or Marvel, or Mutants and Masterminds.... because all of those potential games are corrupted by the fact that wolverine or Batman exists.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Mutants and Masterminds is just a gaming system, so, uh. /shrug at that. No, I wouldn't really want to play in a DC or Marvel based Heroes game.
Filled with well over a hundred heroes. In one city. varying powerlevels.
That fucking place is already fully covered at any PL challenge.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
M&M isn't really built around Freedom City, and is featured only in rulebook's demo adventure. But I do agree with you that pre-defined NPCs shouldn't be problem with running Forgotten Realms campaign. My own personal problem with FR is that it is a kitchen sink, setting that tries to do everything, but not really excelling in anything. Same goes for Greyhawk.
Here you make a good point. I play in a superhero tabletop set in the Marvel verse. It's fine. Yeah, we run into Spidey and Wolverine and the like...but we also get to do things like fight the Juggernaut by ourselves. We fight alongside iconic heroes ALOT, and while they outclass the shit out of us, we've been indispensable, mostly due to the combination of our melle whore, "Scrapper" whose rolls are insane, but only when he's trying not to pass out from being badly wounded (and thus never goes down until the fight is over), our ranged whore, "DeadAim" firing off tranq darts all over the damn place, and myself, "Morgue", an ex-nazi Necromancer/Illusionist - I just think of crazy support ideas, like making villains who have themselves behind a force field think that it's filling with water.
So I guess if FR was done right, you wouldn't so much be COMPETING with Drizzt and such, but fighting alongside them, if you even met them at all, as people have been saying.
Color me mostly convinced. Not that I'll be playing in FR anytime soon, but I can at least understand why people do it now.
BTW, our party is convinced Spider-Man is black.
Ok, let's say that does happen. And let's say that Drizzt and Elminster BOTH are all over it.
A) Is your party seriously strong enough to take on a Fleet of dragons? If not, then this isn't even an issue, because you're not taking on a fleet of dragons. The npc's are doing this anyway.
C) Even if the npc's end up standing side by side with all the high level heroes, do you think they could stop all the dragons simultaneously? Will people still die from the attack? Do they honestly have nothing to do but sit back and sip margaritas while the npc's handle it?
Seriously, this isn't that hard. Batman still manages to find things to do in a world with Superman in it. Hell, the same is even true for Drizzt vs. Elminster. Elminster is LEAGUES more powerful than Drizzt, yet he still manages to find plenty of adventure for himself, that don't involve waiting for Elminster to show up and save his bacon.
If Batman ascended to a level of power rivaling that of God himself, yes, I would not want to play that game.
Oh, it all makes sense. Now that Ebberon is in the picture, they give away FR, because lets be honest, who gives a fuck? Gets a lot of the older enthusiasts back, and gives people new to the game a flashy introduction with uber high-power, and then after their first campaign, they go looking around for places where the fluffy setting allows them to make a difference.
A place like Ebberon.
But, man, some of the best CRPG's ever created told epic, far-reaching stories in the Forgotten Realms where Elminster and Drizzt were limited to cameo roles at best. Hell, the former had, what, maybe three scenes in the entire series?
A lack of creativity is something I'm sensing here.
baldur's gate kind of got around the 'less useful than the major npcs' by putting your character on the the same sort of level as a major npc, didn't it? I never played it through, it bored the crap out of me, but I don't think that sort of 'creativity' is exactly something standard in tabletop games.
The only thing special was your lineage, which didn't even factor into anything useful gameplay-wise until half-way through the second game.
And even then, whether it was actually a useful ability was debatable.
Edit: now that I think of it, there WERE abilities given to the player, but all I can remember was a single casting of CLW.
Well, I didn't mean level as in character level - even Elminster started out as a level 1 rogue.
Actually, I think he started as a Level 1 Fighter - he worked with the mercenaries before he spent time being a fucking awesome catburglar in that one city....and then he went to cleric....and then finally wizard. Took him long fucking enough.
Multiclassing. Yeah, it's a dirty job.
Or the GM's use an overdone, contrived, all together boring setting.
*shudder*
SSSH!
If you talk about it, it gives it power!