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[Split] Why immigrants are the devil
Werrick
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
nexuscrawler wrote: »It's a small public school with Arabic classes and such as electives. They're required to fill all the other requirements of a regular NYC public school. So what's the big deal?
There's a pretty serious culture war going on at the moment as well. It's not surprising that this is the reaction.
Although, I think they do have a point. In Canada we have this issue where immigrants arrive and spend years here and don't even learn English or try to adapt to Canadian culture. Now, it's not a huge deal, it's not the kind of thing that sends me into a rage, but it's annoying and disruptive to have to deal with someone who insists on not learning the language and not adopting the conventions and mores of the society in which they've chosen to live.
I don't think this school is doing anything wrong, and I think that the reaction they're getting is pretty absurd, but it's not surprising, especially in the States. What was once merely a geo-political conflict is now a as much a religious and cultural one and we see it every day. It's not just "Us vs Them" on a military level, you see examples of that mentality in most facets of daily life.
It's sad and unfortunate, but not very surprising.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be rude without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
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Immigrants rarely ever do that nor have they ever really done that. You need to get their children to learn the language if you want any progress and then, 3 generations later, you'll have a 'true' canadian. Expecting that from someone in their 30's + just ain't gonna happen. They'll get broken english, but it's rather hard to learn a new language.
As I said before lots of that is dispelled by the fact that none of the first year students are Middle Eastern(they had a rule agaisnt asking people's religion so some may be muslims). This is depsite the fact that that section fo Brooklyn houses probably the biggest Arab community on the east coast. This isn't an enclave of Middle Easterners creating a public school to isolate themselves. The people who seem interested in the place are ouside Arab culture who think it'd be a good leg-up for their kids to have some knowledge in the area. Or people who see it as a way to get their kids out of horribly failing larger public schools.
Well, you have a point, but the fact remains that there's a different mind-set. Were I to emmigrate to some other part of the world I would do my best to adapt to the culture as well as learn the language as best as possible. Many (not all) immigrants don't do that here in Canada because they don't need to, we have this bizarre socialist ideology that has facilitated the institution of resources that allow people to not have to learn English or French (and frankly, I'd be happy with either, as would most Canadians).
It's not just language, though, it's culture. Things like cleanliness, lifestyle and public comportment. My complaint isn't that they are different, it's that they're different but make no attempt whatsoever to adapt to the lifestyle and culture already in place. There's the expectation that the culture will make exceptions for them.
To be fair, I don't think that's an unfair expectation, but to a degree only. I think it's fair to expect to have exceptions made for a short time, but you can wander out into the street here in Ottawa in some places and meet people who've been here for ten years and still behave as though they just got here simply because they don't care enough to bother to learn, or to even try to adapt.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Often the better educated immigrants put more effort in learning the language and culture of the country they landed in, I don't have any publications on this at hand, but if I recall correctly (and please don't pin me down on this) this had a lot to do with higher educated immigrants hoping to get a job suitable to their level of education.
Maybe, but I think the irony of my complaint is that I expect immigrants to behave the way I would behave were I to emmigrate to somewhere else, but that expectation is a part of the culture in which I was raised.
I certainly don't claim to know how easy a time immigrants to Canada have, but I do know for sure that it's a whole lot easier than in other countries. Having never been to the Middle East, I find myself still somehow fairly certain that if I were to emmigrate there and not adapt to the Middle Eastern culture and try to stay "Canadian" without learning Arabic or adopting the Middle Eastern customs and habits that I'd be pretty screwed.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Yes, but that's because you're relatively middle class and aren't going to leave Canada in order to search for greater opportunities that are waiting for you somewhere else such as becoming a janitor or short order cook. Maybe as an engineer or what have you, but then I'd bet those immigrants coming to Canada for mid level job opportunities are learning english.
That sounds strikingly similiar to a description of Little Warsaw up in Chicago around 100 years ago, or some of the German enclaves in New York at about the same time.
I don't see why that should make a difference. It doesn't matter what job you have or what education you have, you still have to live in the place you've moved to. So, it might be that those who are higher on the social strata might be more inclined to learn the language and adopt the culture (at least to some extent), but that doesn't mean that it's okay not to even try, whatever one's education or degree of social standing.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Why not, exactly? It's been that way for centuries. Millenia, perhaps, and generally hasn't lead to much trouble. Ethnic enclaves in cities have no negative impact on you or the greater area, so I hardly see a reason to think so little of them. Particularly since they tend to have later members (2nd, 3rd, etc. generations) leave and join your more homogenous culture at large and get replaced by other recent immigrants who start the cycle over again.
Having lived in Saudi Arabia, my experience is that the US and UK ex-pats largely live in their own compounds / gated communities and go to their own schools and learn barely (if any) arabic and don't do much interaction outside of their communities.
If they stay on for a generation or two, THEN you might see some people more at home with the culture and setting.
I won't lie and say that if you're white you don't get a fair amount of discrimination there (there's also a fair amount of discrimination against Asians, but that's a different type, more to do with them just being seen as workers), but my experience is that they feel there's no real press to adapt to the 'host' culture (if it's believe there's anything to adapt to, and not just outright ignore) and it's better to be in your easily defensible compound amongst friends and people who understand you.
I suppose part of the issue is that even if many of them end up staying for decaders and generations, they also see themselves as only being there on a temporary basis regardless.
Since there are many "Barriers" for people, first of all not having any canadian experience but them not getting any job and making it a catch 22, they take menial jobs which in fact do not interact with normal "middle class" persons.
If the experience system was a little bit more laxed, hell, graduates from Canadian universities have an equally harder time getting jobs with competition from immigrants, it would solve many of the problems. As long as this exists however, don't expect people to throw away thier culture.
Complete lack of effort. I don't think less of "immigrants" I think less of people who don't bother to even try to adapt to their new home, and comport themselves with the expectation that the society will shift to accomodate them. I don't think that's appropriate.
And they do impact on me. One of the things that I love about my country is that we're jam-packed with immigrants. The States is a "melting pot", but Canada is a mosaic, a tapestry of different cultures and backgrounds. I think it's great, but there is a larger cultural blanket that has it's own set of protocols, things like manners and behaviour in public. Really, really basic stuff like being aware of others around you and not behaving in a way that fucks with them or even just being clean.
Learning the language is certainly a part of that, but as I've said, a number of times now, it's not the success or failure that I'm concerned with, what bothers me is the complete lack of effort on the part of many immigrants.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
And what about the attempts of the Muslim community in Ontario to get Canada to allow them a court based on Sharia law? I'd say that endangers the community at large, particularly Arab men and especially women who would prefer to live under Canadian law only.
These are great examples of the larger scale stuff that's tried. There's another one here in Ottawa about the Muslim community screaming in outrage that a soccer referee for a kid's league (like... 12 or 13 or something) told a girl to take off her head scarf or she couldn't play.
It's a safety issue, for god's sake, but the race card was played faster than you can say Koran.
I was thinking more in terms of the smaller stuff, but Nova, you've managed to really highlight some of the larger issues that are at stake here in Canada. Those examples show what I've been getting at in a bigger way in terms of the attempt of many immigrants to try to get the Canadian culture to change for them.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Cute.
It's kinda strange that you think this needs to be explained. If I moved into your house with you you'd expect me to follow your rules, no? Things like the way you like the towels folded, or the fact that you like having the shower curtain closed after someone showers, or maybe you don't want feet on this table, but that one's okay. You like the keys on the hook as opposed to tossed on the coffee table.
That's not to say that you woudln't also adapt to a degree to allow for me, after all we're both equals, and that's not to say that you'd relax the protocols a little when I got there to allow me to adjust before we could find a middle ground on them.
But if I told you that because I live there now all your rules have to change to suit me and that I don't have to behave myself in any way then you'd be fed up pretty quick.
But I think you knew this all already.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Well, I don't sweat the small stuff.
I lived in an area of Vancouver so predominantly Chinese that some storefronts didn't have any English on them. I was also refused service in a small oriental grocery store there. I don't know why because no one would tell me in English why the lady at the till wasn't running my stuff through. (I think that's why :P So I went to the Safeway a KM down the road). That stuff doesn't really bother me as much as the idea of the community of Sheiks refusing to work with police because killing girls for not being Sheik enough is something the powerful of that society want to maintain.
And the idea of Sharia law in Canada to me is nothing but trouble. Particularly the call for executions of apostates (I have particular animosity for that one).
That bothers me as well. The other issue is that the percentage of Muslims in Canada is growing. That proposal was actually taken somewhat seriously and it was argued that because the Muslim community is so big in Canada that they represent a significant portion of the population and therefore should be accomodated.
I can only imagine the kind of nightmare it would be if they were granted this.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Not really, it's what I've been asking you a few times now and what you've been sidestepping again and again. You consider assimiliation to be an inherent good, particularly for first generation immigrants, and I just can't wrap my head around why that would be the case. Please explain it to me, and without a shitty metaphor involving my house. A country is not a house, nor is it owned by one guy who really doesn't like having feet on the coffee table.
Things like shariah law or special courts should be laughed out of parliament. This I agree with wholeheartedly. I don't quite understand how assimilation is the panacea or noble goal you play it up to be.
I am assuming that such is the reason for immigrants having enclaves here. After all many Canadians/Americans/UKers have their own enclaves in thier home countries, why shouldn't they have then in yours?
The relief I get is I don't think it ever will. Sharia law is far too draconian to be compatible with Canadian law. The part that bothers me is that part of the community may go ahead and start meting out their own brand of Sharia justice. Kinda like honor killings in a Sheik community, no?
So you support the idea that honor killings should be permitted so long as the group doing them comes from a society that does honor killings?
Bwah? I say no such thing because firstly, I am Jewish and secondly, I don't support Honor killings.
I do however object to this brandishign of hair and wailing how immigrants aren't adapting to Canadian culture when people from Canada have thier own enclaves there.
So I strawmanned you? Sorta like how you strawman me? I said these 'enclaves' leave me uneasy. And they do. But until they're obstructing justice I don't really have a problem with them. BECAUSE being with people you understand and who you fit in with is comforting. I wouldn't take that away from someone, particularly someone who just moved from their home country to a place they know few people, if any.
So your ok with Enclaves being in the imigrants home countries and sudden getting whisked away to thier home countries to escape the laws of the land? Huh.
Are you uncomfortable with Enclaves being in the immigrants countries as well?
Characterizing me as evasive won't make the point for you. Characterizing me as an assimilationist won't either. In fact, I stated very explicitly that I like that Canada is a mosaic and a tapestry.
I fail to understand how you don't think that my preference for people to make an effort to adapt to their new home is not something that should be argued for. Are you in favour of people butting in line ahead of you, or not washing themselves, or treating public places like dumps or something?
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
There is a substantial difference between immigrants and foreign nationals who work in these countries because their specific skillset is desired but not domestically available (often due to political reasons).
Care to explain? Because the way it looks right now is that you're saying that people don't have to accede to the laws of the country they're moving to as long as they're skilled enough, they should be granted special exemptions because of all the 'valuable' work they do there? Is this what you are saying?
Safety issue my ass. It was pure bureaucratic nonsense. They have this stupid rule in place which they then must defend to the ends of the earth for no reason. It's a kids game of soccer!
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
Because I don't see the benefit to that when compared with them not going that route. You seem to have circular logic here and never bothered to justify it's main assumption. Them adapting to their new home is a good thing, therefore them adapting to their new home would be a good thing. Well, no. Why is it a good thing for them to adapt to their surroundings? So far all you've come up with is adaptation leads to better shower etiquette and less cutting in line.
I am thinking of South Africa and India by the way, and while they are both quite distinct from the countries deemed to be the West, they are both democracies with large modern economies/sectors, as well as large traditional economies/cultures. So mixed religious/cultural - public systems can work, in some situations
Countries make special allowances to individuals that are integral to the country's [strike]economic[/strike] well-being. For example, Jews were allowed to exist in the Middle Ages because usury was banned for Christians, and the Europeans needed a banking system (hypocrisy for the sake of survival). It is similar in Saudi Arabia today.
I see. So the poorer immigrant workers have to live according to rules of the land, but the rich ones get their own rules. Gotcha.
Surprised that it happens? No. Do I accept it as being right and proper? Hell no.
What.
The.
Fuck.
Are you really upset at foreigners because you think they smell? Goddamn. Is your beef with immigrants really just "I don't like being around people who don't smell, look, and behave like me"? This is the kind of xenophobic racism that continues because, hey, they are just not conforming, right? I'm sorry the motherfucker has different bathing habits than you. Not everyone has access to such huge amounts of fresh water that you pour all over yourself for shits and giggles every morning. I'm curious what other ways immigrants "impact" you. Do their haircuts bug you, too? Their lack of fashion sense?