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I grew up in England and had to wear uniforms from the day I went to school to the day I left, I fully support them as a fantastic idea. You may argue that they "force people to be alike" and "suppress the child's expression" but the benefits greatly out way those rather questionable negatives.
1. Growing up in a relatively poor family, I did not have my choice of clothes.. I wore second hand clothes from the charity stores or garage sales.. this was fine for socializing with my friends outside school, they were mostly in a similar position, but I would dread the rare "no uniform" days as they would mean being ridiculed even more by the better off, better dressed, children. Because my uniform was never changing, and fairly easy to get hold of, my parents could easily afford to buy me enough shirts/sweaters/pants to last the year, because it wasn't so obvious that I was wearing the same ones all week.
2. Part of school is about teaching children what it will be like in the real world.. they should be expected to follow rules, to respect those with authority over them, be polite, and wear a uniform.. last time I checked, most jobs at the very least have a dress code. Part of that lesson is also about self control and what is appropriate clothing in certain situations.. a school near me as a child had no uniform policy, and when I left to get a job, I would frequently hear ex students complain about having to wear specific clothing for their jobs... something I never heard from people who went to uniform schools.
3. At least where I grew up, uniforms did an important job in making the more attractive members of the opposite sex less of an obsession when we were in class.. children in school should be thinking about their education, not about how hot that girl looks in her short skirt. Frankly relatively shapeless uniforms probably makes things a bit easier on the teachers as well, I can only imagine how unpleasant it must be to teach a class full of girls dressed in the shortest skirts and tightest tops they can manage to show off their bodies.
4. Uniforms provide an important security aid, as someone already said, people who shouldn't be there stand out all the more, especially with all teachers required to dress in smart, almost uniform styles. Not just that, but children who are outside school when they should not be are far more identifiable.. the only people who got away with wondering around town while they should be in school in my area, were the hardcore delinquents who decided to take other clothing with them and who's parents were negligent enough not to stop them. Anyone else seen out of school would find a teacher or a police officer turning up relatively soon as a store owner or random member of the public called it in to the appropriate school.
5. Uniforms aid in school unity, something that is important.. I know of course that this is alien to many Americans, but almost every student I knew, when push came to shove, supported their school and its respective teams, and had a certain amount of pride in it.. even me, despite the fact I hated most of the other students and thought there were serious flaws in the school's policies, I still have some respect for it.
Essentially, the two authors treat fashion (and consumerism in general) as a race to the bottom - and that while no one (or perhaps a small minority) actually wants to go out and spend more and more money on clothes and other related crap, the situation in which students are socially subjected to makes it the best possible action.
School uniforms wouldn't prevent that. Students do have social lives after school hours and on weekends.
We're talking about the effects in school.
Kids can walk around naked or in diamond laden suits on the weekend. I don't care.
There will still be a race to the bottom except that it won't involve school clothes. They will still be going out and spending more and more money on clothes and other related crap and creating school uniforms won't solve that problem.
I just read an excellent critique of the counter-culture (The Rebel Sell: Why the culture can't be jammed), and it had an extensive section on fashion, and specifically, the question of school uniforms. While in high school, I'm sure I would've vehemently opposed uniforms (for basically the same reasons people are saying; too authoritarian, they repress individuality, etc), I've slowly come around to the idea, and this critique really solidified my opinion. Essentially, the two authors treat fashion (and consumerism in general) as a race to the bottom - and that while no one (or perhaps a small minority) actually wants to go out and spend more and more money on clothes and other related crap, the situation in which students are socially subjected to makes it the best possible action.
Also, decorum in the classroom = very important. If uniforms help to achieve this, then I think it is reasonable to require it.
Anecdotally, it did not in my school. I dont think it had any effect one way or the other really. I know theres the argument that people will judge you for what you wear, but realistically, in high school, kids find a way to judge you, in uniform or out, be it your hair, wieght, whatever. Any sort of customization comes under attack or praise.
There will of course be those that criticize you because you dont have the latest fashion, but they're the same people who tease you for not having the latest phone or for your hair style. You cant do anything about that. But you dont need to dress expensive or in brands to dress well, you can look and feel better simply by finding the style that suits you, and of course you wont straight away, there will be drama and tears and mum get me this and mum get me that. But eventually though this process most kids will gain perspective and become more confident with their own styles. This happens naturally anyway, but in regards to clothes, personally, uniforms retarded my identity and confidence when it came to my physical appearance. It was the opposite of the consumerist extreme, I took NO interest or pride in clothes, and followed closely after that, my appearance, which creates a circle of more teasing and continues to destroy your self esteem.
Im just saying there are two elements to the consumerist argument. Sure some kids will take it too far, some kids wont make it, some will lose perspective, and the race to the bottom will begin. But the other extreme is just as bad (this is an argumentative opinion, based on my experience), the absolute apathy regarding your own style and clothing. Its not just consumerist hype, you can find something for 10 bucks that looks about a thousand times better on me than the shit uniform I had during highschool.
Come on, now. You are saying that schools shouldn't have uniforms because it retards the fashion sense of teenagers? Have you taken a look at what kids wear these days...?
I would've like to have had the choice. At least then its my fault I look stupid, and I can fix it, not the uniform, which I can do nothing about. And those kind of kids that are just hopeless causes, they're hopeless causes, uniform or no, it doesnt matter, and they dont care. Im talking about the middle-ground kids, the vast majority, not the extremes, or the trends. These are just growing pains in your fashion sense, which you either learn from, or continue to suffer cos your simply a retard, and a uniform wont change that.
2. Part of school is about teaching children what it will be like in the real world.. they should be expected to follow rules, to respect those with authority over them, be polite, and wear a uniform.. last time I checked, most jobs at the very least have a dress code. Part of that lesson is also about self control and what is appropriate clothing in certain situations.. a school near me as a child had no uniform policy, and when I left to get a job, I would frequently hear ex students complain about having to wear specific clothing for their jobs... something I never heard from people who went to uniform schools.
qft
I was thinking this earlier when the OP said that, in high school, the students should be "treated like adults." imo, making teenagers wear uniforms when they're in a school environment is treating them like adults.
Kids can walk around naked or in diamond laden suits on the weekend. I don't care.
I think that you've convinced me. Attractive teenage women should either wear nothing at all, or else diamond-laden suits. No other forms of dress should be allowed.
2. Part of school is about teaching children what it will be like in the real world.. they should be expected to follow rules, to respect those with authority over them, be polite, and wear a uniform.. last time I checked, most jobs at the very least have a dress code. Part of that lesson is also about self control and what is appropriate clothing in certain situations.. a school near me as a child had no uniform policy, and when I left to get a job, I would frequently hear ex students complain about having to wear specific clothing for their jobs... something I never heard from people who went to uniform schools.
qft
I was thinking this earlier when the OP said that, in high school, the students should be "treated like adults." imo, making teenagers wear uniforms when they're in a school environment is treating them like adults.
Private school uniforms maybe. But not the bargain basement polo top generico uniforms in Australian public schools. Ive got my whole life to wear a suit and tie, let me be awkward and stuffy then, not when im an already awkward and stuffy teen.
2. Part of school is about teaching children what it will be like in the real world.. they should be expected to follow rules, to respect those with authority over them, be polite, and wear a uniform.. last time I checked, most jobs at the very least have a dress code. Part of that lesson is also about self control and what is appropriate clothing in certain situations.. a school near me as a child had no uniform policy, and when I left to get a job, I would frequently hear ex students complain about having to wear specific clothing for their jobs... something I never heard from people who went to uniform schools.
man, that's the other thing. i know high school is all about FUCK YOU MAAAAAAANN I DO WHAT I WANT, but in the real world there are going to be certain expectations about your appearence and how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations. you're supposed to be learning things in high school, and that should be part of it.
hats, for instance, are disrespectful in any situation. any teacher that thinks it's okay for his or her students to wear hats in the classroom either has a fullproof means of maintaining discipline and respect, or is an idiot.
Private school uniforms maybe. But not the bargain basement polo top generico uniforms in Australian public schools. Ive got my whole life to wear a suit and tie, let me be awkward and stuffy then, not when im an already awkward and stuffy teen.
honestly from your posts i get the feeling that you were gonna be awkward and stuffy no matter what you wore. getting to wear your favorite slipknot shirt probably wasn't going to change anything.
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
2. Part of school is about teaching children what it will be like in the real world.. they should be expected to follow rules, to respect those with authority over them, be polite, and wear a uniform.. last time I checked, most jobs at the very least have a dress code. Part of that lesson is also about self control and what is appropriate clothing in certain situations.. a school near me as a child had no uniform policy, and when I left to get a job, I would frequently hear ex students complain about having to wear specific clothing for their jobs... something I never heard from people who went to uniform schools.
qft
I was thinking this earlier when the OP said that, in high school, the students should be "treated like adults." imo, making teenagers wear uniforms when they're in a school environment is treating them like adults.
Private school uniforms maybe. But not the bargain basement polo top generico uniforms in Australian public schools. Ive got my whole life to wear a suit and tie, let me be awkward and stuffy then, not when im an already awkward and stuffy teen.
There will still be a race to the bottom except that it won't involve school clothes. They will still be going out and spending more and more money on clothes and other related crap and creating school uniforms won't solve that problem.
Once again, we're talking about the effects of uniforms in schools. Uniforms in schools represent the majority of the time a child spends clothed during the day from the time they first enter elementary until they graduate secondary school. In highschool (we had no uniforms), the vast majority of clothes I had were for wearing during the school week. Sure, I had other clothes for more specific things - going to concerts or parties, formal functions, work clothes, etc. But the vast majority of my wardrobe consisted of clothes for school.
I would've like to have had the choice. At least then its my fault I look stupid, and I can fix it, not the uniform, which I can do nothing about. And those kind of kids that are just hopeless causes, they're hopeless causes, uniform or no, it doesnt matter, and they dont care. Im talking about the middle-ground kids, the vast majority, not the extremes, or the trends. These are just growing pains in your fashion sense, which you either learn from, or continue to suffer cos your simply a retard, and a uniform wont change that.
I certainly understand wanting to have a choice in the matter, but, honestly, I think it's a bit weak to claim that kids need to learn fashion sense rather than reap the benefits of uniforms (less violence, more cohesive school culture, etc). Anyway, they're minors, right? So they don't have a say in the matter regardless.
2. Part of school is about teaching children what it will be like in the real world.. they should be expected to follow rules, to respect those with authority over them, be polite, and wear a uniform.. last time I checked, most jobs at the very least have a dress code. Part of that lesson is also about self control and what is appropriate clothing in certain situations.. a school near me as a child had no uniform policy, and when I left to get a job, I would frequently hear ex students complain about having to wear specific clothing for their jobs... something I never heard from people who went to uniform schools.
man, that's the other thing. i know high school is all about FUCK YOU MAAAAAAANN I DO WHAT I WANT, but in the real world there are going to be certain expectations about your appearence and how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations. you're supposed to be learning things in high school, and that should be part of it.
hats, for instance, are disrespectful in any situation. any teacher that thinks it's okay for his or her students to wear hats in the classroom either has a fullproof means of maintaining discipline and respect, or is an idiot.
You cant idiot proof kids. Again, as someone who went to a uniform school (a private then a public one), I can tell you that some kids can wear uniforms throughout their entire school life and still be unprepared for the workforce. The only thing that prepares you for the workforce, and for polite adult society, is the workforce and polite adult society. You simply have to learn harsh lessons in this regard early. Wearing my shitty public school uniform did nothing to prepare me for shirt and tie work, my parents did that, something which is out of the control of the education system.
No hats in classrooms goes without saying, you can still have a casual wear policy and enforce no hats in classroom rules. Thats manors, not fashion. Uniforms do nothing to reinforce discipline or respect, if they have any effect, its so minimal that you could measure the confidence boost in casual clothes some students get as a counter argument.
I certainly understand wanting to have a choice in the matter, but, honestly, I think it's a bit weak to claim that kids need to learn fashion sense rather than reap the benefits of uniforms (less violence, more cohesive school culture, etc). Anyway, they're minors, right? So they don't have a say in the matter regardless.
Im not sure of any studies that prove that uniforms prevent violence or enhance cohesive school structure, there are obviously lots of factors in this, uniforms may have a slight impact one way or the other. But in my particular case, my school would've been about the same without uniforms, and my experience as a student would've been greatly enhanced. Sorry for all the anecdotal arguments here, but id rather argue that, because its simply what I know. Also im lazy and dont want to look up statistics to prove or disprove things, hehe.
2. Part of school is about teaching children what it will be like in the real world.. they should be expected to follow rules, to respect those with authority over them, be polite, and wear a uniform.. last time I checked, most jobs at the very least have a dress code. Part of that lesson is also about self control and what is appropriate clothing in certain situations.. a school near me as a child had no uniform policy, and when I left to get a job, I would frequently hear ex students complain about having to wear specific clothing for their jobs... something I never heard from people who went to uniform schools.
man, that's the other thing. i know high school is all about FUCK YOU MAAAAAAANN I DO WHAT I WANT, but in the real world there are going to be certain expectations about your appearence and how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations. you're supposed to be learning things in high school, and that should be part of it.
hats, for instance, are disrespectful in any situation. any teacher that thinks it's okay for his or her students to wear hats in the classroom either has a fullproof means of maintaining discipline and respect, or is an idiot.
Just telling them what to wear without explaining why they should wear it at school instead of other clothes won't help that. Knowing not to wear baggy pants in a classroom won't help you handle yourself at a job or in social situations. I don't see how it is possible to teach etiquette without explaining what is considered casual, what is considered formal, etc. It would be easier to have a class on it.
Another thing it does, and that school should teach alot more in my opinion is that... well.. you don't always get explanations from people with authority.
Uniforms in jobs can be pretty yucky and cheap as well, but you still have to wear them, you get no choice.. and you get no choice at school either.
Of course, my opinions on what school should be teaching socially and how students should be allowed to behave should probably in in another thread.
There will still be a race to the bottom except that it won't involve school clothes. They will still be going out and spending more and more money on clothes and other related crap and creating school uniforms won't solve that problem.
Once again, we're talking about the effects of uniforms in schools. Uniforms in schools represent the majority of the time a child spends clothed during the day from the time they first enter elementary until they graduate secondary school. In highschool (we had no uniforms), the vast majority of clothes I had were for wearing during the school week. Sure, I had other clothes for more specific things - going to concerts or parties, formal functions, work clothes, etc. But the vast majority of my wardrobe consisted of clothes for school.
Then school uniforms will at most just delay the race to the bottom and just be a band aid on a much larger problem that will continue to be mostly ignored.
Wearing my shitty public school uniform did nothing to prepare me for shirt and tie work, my parents did that, something which is out of the control of the education system.
No hats in classrooms goes without saying, you can still have a casual wear policy and enforce no hats in classroom rules. Thats manors, not fashion. Uniforms do nothing to reinforce discipline or respect, if they have any effect, its so minimal that you could measure the confidence boost in casual clothes some students get as a counter argument.
no, uniforms reinforce the idea that there is a certain expectation of what kids should be wearing in a classroom setting. like i said before, i don't think every school needs some kind of uniform. just the ones with students who have shown that they need that kind of structure since they can't handle it themselves.
Just telling them what to wear without explaining why they should wear it at school instead of other clothes won't help that.
that's why teachers and schools have written rules that are explained and reinforced during the first week of school.
Knowing not to wear baggy pants in a classroom won't help you handle yourself at a job or in social situations.
so you're saying knowing what kind of dress is accepable in a more professional or formal setting won't help you in a job or a social situation. okay.
I don't see how it is possible to teach etiquette without explaining what is considered casual, what is considered formal, etc. It would be easier to have a class on it.
are you kidding me?!? a class would be a billion times harder to create and sustain and teach to every student than set school rules that are taught and discussed in every classroom. do you know anything about teaching?
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
are you kidding me?!? a class would be a billion times harder to create and sustain and teach to every student than set school rules that are taught and discussed in every classroom. do you know anything about teaching?
They teach exactly such a class in a lot of schools that mentor to the learning-challenged.
are you kidding me?!? a class would be a billion times harder to create and sustain and teach to every student than set school rules that are taught and discussed in every classroom. do you know anything about teaching?
They teach exactly such a class in a lot of schools that mentor to the learning-challenged.
but it doesn't replace schoolwide rules and regulations in terms of dress or decorum. come on.
that's great if schools want to teach an etiquette class, but that can't even come close to approaching the need for written rules about dress and behavior that are given out and discussed in every class.
edit:
and the reason why they have that for the learing challenged is becuase often times LD or IEP kids have impariments (specifically autistic kids) that cause them to be unable to pick up on social cues and the like, not because they can't match a suit and tie.
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
Knowing not to wear baggy pants in a classroom won't help you handle yourself at a job or in social situations.
so you're saying knowing what kind of dress is accepable in a more professional or formal setting won't help you in a job or a social situation. okay.
You would need to know what counts as a formal setting.
I don't see how it is possible to teach etiquette without explaining what is considered casual, what is considered formal, etc. It would be easier to have a class on it.
are you kidding me?!? a class would be a billion times harder to create and sustain and teach to every student than set school rules that are taught and discussed in every classroom. do you know anything about teaching?
A lot of etiquette involves stuff that generally won't come up in class but can still be important.
are you kidding me?!? a class would be a billion times harder to create and sustain and teach to every student than set school rules that are taught and discussed in every classroom. do you know anything about teaching?
They teach exactly such a class in a lot of schools that mentor to the learning-challenged.
but it doesn't replace schoolwide rules and regulations in terms of dress or decorum. come on.
that's great if schools want to teach an etiquette class, but that can't even come close to approaching the need for written rules about dress and behavior that are given out and discussed in every class.
edit:
and the reason why they have that for the learing challenged is becuase often times LD or IEP kids have impariments (specifically autistic kids) that cause them to be unable to pick up on social cues and the like, not because they can't match a suit and tie.
That's a good point. I don't see why the two policies shouldn't be implemented together, but then I'm in favor of uniforms, which is a minority view itt.
Private school uniforms maybe. But not the bargain basement polo top generico uniforms in Australian public schools. Ive got my whole life to wear a suit and tie, let me be awkward and stuffy then, not when im an already awkward and stuffy teen.
honestly from your posts i get the feeling that you were gonna be awkward and stuffy no matter what you wore. getting to wear your favorite slipknot shirt probably wasn't going to change anything.
Thats the thing tho, of course as a young teen I would've looked silly, as all young awkward teens do (especially metal rawr goth teens). But the same way I wasn't allowed to be awkward and silly looking, I also wasn't allowed to experiment and grow in that area. I was 18 or 19 before I really started to come into my own with my fashion, and nothing really changed about my physical appearance, it was simply how I carried and conveyed myself.
The argument could be made that I simply wouldn't have matured fashion-wise until that age anyway, but I think it would've sped things up. I wasnt an ugly kid, but I never got attention from females simply because I had such low self esteem, and spared no thought to improving my looks with clothing due to school uniforms being the only clothes I could wear. I had friends who were girls, I had an awesome personality, and lots of friends, but I would still get teased quite harshly, and never received any sexual female attention, this is crippling and affected other areas of my life, and eventually my attitudes (particularly to school work and my future). I didn't even realise how much clothes could improve my look. I had girls I knew in highschool suddenly going out with me in uni simply because they could see my arms and body shape, which hadnt changed since highschool, but they could now see. Its superficial bullshit but its how connections are made more often than not, its unfortunate lifes like that.
Along with all the respect and discipline stuff I would've loved to have been taught some self confidence and pride in my appearance in highschool. While trouble makers and bad students still disrupted classes, and hot girls still managed to wear sexily distracting stuff, the uniform did nothing to stop me from becoming apathetic about school and life simply because of social insecurities. I'm not crediting clothes with the whole awkward teen experience, but it is a large part, and as a smart, attractive kid I would have benefited from them. Basically what im saying is that uniforms have their merits, discipline, cohesion, school pride, but for me, personally, they werent helpful. As a disciplined, attentive and smart student, I felt that once again, the bullies, the disruptive elements, were taking away from my experience.
This happens so often in public schools, in so many aspects, the drag down effect, smart awkward kids get ignored whilst the problem kids not only disrupt learning and contribute to teasing you, but also to draining school time and resources, and taking focus away from kids who want to learn.
Its a small element, but I would've really appreciated it, retrospectively.
A lot of etiquette involves stuff that generally won't come up in class but can still be important.
that's great, but we're talking about class and school. they way students should act in class translates to well beyond the classroom.
maybe i'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.
edit:
and prohass, i'm sorry that's what your deal was, but again, i think you're trying to project your own experiences ino a much bigger issue than it actually is. i mean honestly, you could've worn whatever you wanted outside of school. i think if having to wear a polo shirt when everyone else was wearing the same thing totally screwed with your confidence, you've porbably got other issues to deal with
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
A lot of etiquette involves stuff that generally won't come up in class but can still be important.
that's great, but we're talking about class and school. they way students should act in class translates to well beyond the classroom.
maybe i'm not sure what you'e trying to argue here.
in the real world there are going to be certain expectations about your appearence and how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations. you're supposed to be learning things in high school, and that should be part of it.
If how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations is something you should learn in high school, it wouldn't make sense to teach them only the parts of etiquette that they are supposed to use at school.
A lot of etiquette involves stuff that generally won't come up in class but can still be important.
that's great, but we're talking about class and school. they way students should act in class translates to well beyond the classroom.
maybe i'm not sure what you'e trying to argue here.
in the real world there are going to be certain expectations about your appearence and how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations. you're supposed to be learning things in high school, and that should be part of it.
If how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations is something you should learn in high school, it wouldn't make sense to teach them only the parts of etiquette that they are supposed to use at school.
okay, i definately agree with this then. but what does that have to do with a dress code or classroom management? if anything it just reinforces the need for them
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
A lot of etiquette involves stuff that generally won't come up in class but can still be important.
that's great, but we're talking about class and school. they way students should act in class translates to well beyond the classroom.
maybe i'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.
edit:
and prohass, i'm sorry that's what your deal was, but again, i think you're trying to project your own experiences ino a much bigger issue than it actually is. i mean honestly, you could've worn whatever you wanted outside of school. i think if having to wear a polo shirt when everyone else was wearing the same thing totally screwed with your confidence, you've porbably got other issues to deal with
This is true. Honestly, it didnt totally screw with my confidence, being lanky and having pimples were numbers 1 and 2, but im saying that uniforms didn't have any positive effect in my school environment, and were a negative for me. By years 11 and 12 (when most trouble students have left) the classrooms became quiet, teachers became your helpful friends, and girls seemed less and less important, especially with exams coming up. But 'Junior high' as its called in America, was a mess, mainly because of dipshit students with parents who've never disciplined them and a steadfast resolve to disrupt and ruin your education experience. Uniforms didnt stop them, or even slow them down, and they didnt help me at all.
I did wear whatever I wanted outside of school, but thats 2 days in a week, mostly spent in sports activities, or with friends. School is where all your peers are, where your social anxiety is the highest, and its the place where I looked the stupidest. It just sucked is all :P
I was a poor kid going to a rich school with uniforms. They still knew I was poor, and they could still take the piss out of how ratty my uniform was, how often I could afford to buy new stuff, how many spare shirts and ties I had.
I don't think the 'it protects poor kids from fashion ridicule' works at all.
I'd be less opposed to uniforms if most uniform designers didn't have "Lets make this as crappy and uncomfortable as possible" as a major theme.
Also, you end up having to do more laundry, as fuck staying in that horrible shit piece of a uniform after I got home.
And cost for these things can get retarded. Specifically in private schools. When in k-6 grade, it was white shirt with the school name on them (only 2 place in town to buy this, usually at least $20), navy blue shorts (not blue, not dark blue, navy, belt, white socks (you had to wear socks, and they had to come up past the top of your shoe at least, and black shoes (no exception, and they cant be mostly black with some white. They also decided randomly in 4th grade that everyone was to wear white shoes, with no black on them). All of this was fairly expensive, more so than normal clothes. I also felt bad for the girls. Same white shirt, P.E./gym shorts under a plaid (white, blue and green) jumper. When you got to 7-8 grade it changed to a skirt. they were only allowed to wear pants during the winter, and then only pants that had the schools name or mascot on them.
yeah, I hate uniforms
ronzo on
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Judge-ZTeacher, for Great JusticeUpstate NYRegistered Userregular
Honestly, a reasonable dress code takes no time to enforce, as long as it enforces a consistent standard over a period of time. Kids get used to it. My building bans the four C's, as we teachers call them behind the kids' backs. Cleavage, Crack, Cunt and Cock. The last two really mean underwear, but it sounds funnier our way.
Really? I've heard teachers complain a lot about the difficulty of enforcing a standard. Like, is any cleavage allowed at all? How much is too much? Can a guy cross dress at school if he wants to (this actually happened, turned out he couldn't)? Is it ok to have a picture of unicorns fucking on a t shirt? What if it is done tastefully?
Uniforms have their own little enforcement problems but I never thought of one as inherently more or less difficult than the other.
That's where consistency comes in. After a while, there just aren't as many challenges to the dress code, especially if it is common sense. Underwear showing is a no-no. Ladies' tops are okay as long as they do not have plunging necklines - and like the Supreme Court justice once said about obsenity, it's hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Ass hanging out, gents? Pull your damn pants up.
The cross dressing thing is an interesting case, and really comes down to an issue of community standards. I've heard of schools that allow it, others that don't. Knowing my district, a truly transgender student would likely be allowed to dress as they felt compelled, within the bounds of the aforementiond 4 Cs.
Being in a middle school, things are a bit more strict, dress code wise, than our high school. For the record, we are a very, very high performing district, with remarkably few serious incidents of bullying and hardly any fights (I think it has been two years since there was more than a shoving match in my building of 1300 kids). It's not nirvana - we do have a bit of a drug problem at the high school, but no worse than any other suburban district in our area. To all of the proponents of uniforms here, please explain how uniforms will substantially make things better in my district.
Again, the research, which has analyzed everything from discipline referrals to test scores to pregnancy rates has shown that uniforms in most American schools do nothing positive, and may actually lead to negative results, except in certain very specific cases where uniforms can be part of a comprehensive package of school reform for troubled buildings.
Again, the research, which has analyzed everything from discipline referrals to test scores to pregnancy rates has shown that uniforms in most American schools do nothing positive, and may actually lead to negative results, except in certain very specific cases where uniforms can be part of a comprehensive package of school reform for troubled buildings.
Yeah, I never really thought of uniforms as much more than a conviniency thing, but I take your point, and you're definitely more experienced in the area than I am.
Anecdotally, there is only one school in town I know of that doesn't have a uniform policy, and that's a school for Yr 11s and 12s only, which markets itself to students who are expected to perform better with much less restricting expectations. I've never really bought into the whole psychological baggage aspect of uniform wearing, but I'm sure there's a case for it.
I don't think anyone here was telling us that uniforms double as a contraceptive.
Nobody here was, but I have heard uniform proponents claiming that uniforms will somehow magically keep the kids from bumping nasties. You know, if kids aren't wearing the hoochie clothes showing off their bits and pieces and all of that. I guess these people have never heard of the schoolgirl uniform fetish.
man, that's the other thing. i know high school is all about FUCK YOU MAAAAAAANN I DO WHAT I WANT, AS LONG AS IT CONFORMS TO WHAT MY PEERS ARE ALSO DOING but in the real world there are going to be certain expectations about your appearence and how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations. you're supposed to be learning things in high school, and that should be part of it.
Fixed it for ya.
Seriously, I don't see this individualism in High School that everyone talks about. If anything, its the one time where you are MOST pressured to be categorized into a clique. Especially in the later years if HS where picking colleges comes into play. Everyone gets sorted into whether you're going to an expensive school or a state school, athletic scholarship or not. art school, trade school, or technical. And everyone gets grouped into those stereotypes. It isn't until college, where you've made your choice and you're corralled together into a group of people who are just like you, obviously, because you got into the same college. that you're really forced to stand out and be an individual. not to mention the responsibility of living on your own for the first time.
I didn't do too well in college my first time out, so over the years, I've been going back to school to finish up, and I see it all the time in the freshman level courses that I had to retake. for a good third of the semester, its impossible to get an opinion out of froshes. Every time a professor will open a question up to the floor. It's dead fucking silence. new freshmen have been so indoctrinated with group-think, and suddenly they're asked for their own unique opinion and they turn into mutes. It's anecdotal evidence, I realize that. But that is what I see.
It is interesting to note, that when I was in High School, the issues of uniforms came up. I was against it too. Now, post-schooling, I'm for uniforms. And I know im not the only one who has gone through that change of opinion. So it would just be interesting to break it down, and find out among those who are for/against uniforms and whether or not they're still in HS or not.
And fuck. I don't think anyone is advocating elaborate uniforms by any means. even just a standard t-shirt and shorts for spring and early fall would suffice. So I don't think you can just lump all uniforms into the "ugly, uncomfortable" stereotype. If you're going to do uniforms, do it right. Make them comfortable, and make them cheap. done.
I was thinking this earlier when the OP said that, in high school, the students should be "treated like adults." imo, making teenagers wear uniforms when they're in a school environment is treating them like adults.
You do realize that women are expected to wear something different to work every day, right? Most of the women in the office where I work don't wear the same outfit more than once every three months. And then they change the top / bottom combination so it doesn't look like the "same outfit."
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Triple BBastard of the NorthMARegistered Userregular
edited September 2007
I'm fairly against the concept of school uniforms. I believe individuality is more important than "looking nice".
US High School is 15-17, right? The UK equivalent (sixth form) at 16-18 doesn't have uniform in most places either. It's a good intermediate stage where kids can learn to dress themselves every day before they go off to university / work at 18 and won't be wearing a uniform anymore. The first few weeks of sixth form were like a godamn fashion parade for the girls though. We had a female head, so she had rules about how much flesh they could show, which in practice would just mean her telling the occasional female to put on a cardigan or something.
Then school uniforms will at most just delay the race to the bottom and just be a band aid on a much larger problem that will continue to be mostly ignored.
This is one of the points brought up by Heath and Potter in the Rebel Sell. Specifically, how the counterculture has traditionally rejected any solution to a problem they see as not 'deep enough.' Anything less than, say, a total revolution where all you need is love is to be opposed, as it doesn't go far enough, or is perceived as being the Man trying to placate the masses. Potter and Heath also applied this to contemporary social activists, who, rather than take that sometimes slow or piecemeal change that the legislative process is so effective at, instead decry such slow change or reform as not getting to the 'root cause', and, as such, anything less than a complete overall in how one approaches this root cause is to be damned.
In this case, I happen to agree with them. It is not like we are going to be stopping consumerism anytime soon, especially among the people with the largest disposable incomes - so why don't we try to at least to minimize the aspect of it (via uniforms) that has the largest negative social effects on young people for a significant portion of their early life? Sure, trying to get rid of consumerism among young people is a noble cause, but just how are we going to do that? And even if you have some concrete action plan that actually works (rather than just feeds into the cycle), why should we wait around until we can implement it? What is wrong with simpler solutions that can be implemented now?
I actually have no objection to uniforms in principle, but this particular uniform involved a wool blazer, which has to be the most impractical garment ever created by man. If it's warm, you bake. If it's cold, the wind cuts right through it. If it rains, it absorbs the water like nobody's business, gets incredibly heavy, and it smells.
US High School is 15-17, right? The UK equivalent (sixth form) at 16-18 doesn't have uniform in most places either. It's a good intermediate stage where kids can learn to dress themselves every day before they go off to university / work at 18 and won't be wearing a uniform anymore.
Pshaw. Adults hardly even know how to dress themselves.
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Muse Among MenSuburban Bunny Princess?Its time for a new shtick Registered Userregular
edited September 2007
I had to wear uniforms in middle school and despised it. Not the principle, mind you, but how damn hard it made finding clothes. I'm very very petite, so finding a pair of pants that fits good is cause for elation (I would gladly shell out more than most girls my age at the time should for any pants), seeing as whoever manufactures the clothes has it in their mind that very skinny girls are also really tall - which just isn't true, most slender girls are on the short side. Because of the uniforms, finding clothes that fit was even harder, and usually, ended up being more expensive. So, for me at least, uniforms weren't practical nor economical.
I was a poor kid going to a rich school with uniforms. They still knew I was poor, and they could still take the piss out of how ratty my uniform was, how often I could afford to buy new stuff, how many spare shirts and ties I had.
I don't think the 'it protects poor kids from fashion ridicule' works at all.
You're right. It doesn't. The economic differences will still be apparent through other means that are just as blatant as different clothing. The kind of car the person drives (try dictating what cars teens can and cannot drive to school), the jewelry they wear or even something like the appearance of their hair (gel/styled/highlights).
People use the argument that high school is intended to prepare people for the real world. Teaching them that everyone is identical is not proper preparation. People are different, learn to deal with it.
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1. Growing up in a relatively poor family, I did not have my choice of clothes.. I wore second hand clothes from the charity stores or garage sales.. this was fine for socializing with my friends outside school, they were mostly in a similar position, but I would dread the rare "no uniform" days as they would mean being ridiculed even more by the better off, better dressed, children. Because my uniform was never changing, and fairly easy to get hold of, my parents could easily afford to buy me enough shirts/sweaters/pants to last the year, because it wasn't so obvious that I was wearing the same ones all week.
2. Part of school is about teaching children what it will be like in the real world.. they should be expected to follow rules, to respect those with authority over them, be polite, and wear a uniform.. last time I checked, most jobs at the very least have a dress code. Part of that lesson is also about self control and what is appropriate clothing in certain situations.. a school near me as a child had no uniform policy, and when I left to get a job, I would frequently hear ex students complain about having to wear specific clothing for their jobs... something I never heard from people who went to uniform schools.
3. At least where I grew up, uniforms did an important job in making the more attractive members of the opposite sex less of an obsession when we were in class.. children in school should be thinking about their education, not about how hot that girl looks in her short skirt. Frankly relatively shapeless uniforms probably makes things a bit easier on the teachers as well, I can only imagine how unpleasant it must be to teach a class full of girls dressed in the shortest skirts and tightest tops they can manage to show off their bodies.
4. Uniforms provide an important security aid, as someone already said, people who shouldn't be there stand out all the more, especially with all teachers required to dress in smart, almost uniform styles. Not just that, but children who are outside school when they should not be are far more identifiable.. the only people who got away with wondering around town while they should be in school in my area, were the hardcore delinquents who decided to take other clothing with them and who's parents were negligent enough not to stop them. Anyone else seen out of school would find a teacher or a police officer turning up relatively soon as a store owner or random member of the public called it in to the appropriate school.
5. Uniforms aid in school unity, something that is important.. I know of course that this is alien to many Americans, but almost every student I knew, when push came to shove, supported their school and its respective teams, and had a certain amount of pride in it.. even me, despite the fact I hated most of the other students and thought there were serious flaws in the school's policies, I still have some respect for it.
There will still be a race to the bottom except that it won't involve school clothes. They will still be going out and spending more and more money on clothes and other related crap and creating school uniforms won't solve that problem.
I would've like to have had the choice. At least then its my fault I look stupid, and I can fix it, not the uniform, which I can do nothing about. And those kind of kids that are just hopeless causes, they're hopeless causes, uniform or no, it doesnt matter, and they dont care. Im talking about the middle-ground kids, the vast majority, not the extremes, or the trends. These are just growing pains in your fashion sense, which you either learn from, or continue to suffer cos your simply a retard, and a uniform wont change that.
I was thinking this earlier when the OP said that, in high school, the students should be "treated like adults." imo, making teenagers wear uniforms when they're in a school environment is treating them like adults.
EDIT:
I think that you've convinced me. Attractive teenage women should either wear nothing at all, or else diamond-laden suits. No other forms of dress should be allowed.
That would be so freaking awesome.
Private school uniforms maybe. But not the bargain basement polo top generico uniforms in Australian public schools. Ive got my whole life to wear a suit and tie, let me be awkward and stuffy then, not when im an already awkward and stuffy teen.
man, that's the other thing. i know high school is all about FUCK YOU MAAAAAAANN I DO WHAT I WANT, but in the real world there are going to be certain expectations about your appearence and how you handle yourself at a job or in social situations. you're supposed to be learning things in high school, and that should be part of it.
hats, for instance, are disrespectful in any situation. any teacher that thinks it's okay for his or her students to wear hats in the classroom either has a fullproof means of maintaining discipline and respect, or is an idiot.
edit:
honestly from your posts i get the feeling that you were gonna be awkward and stuffy no matter what you wore. getting to wear your favorite slipknot shirt probably wasn't going to change anything.
Once again, we're talking about the effects of uniforms in schools. Uniforms in schools represent the majority of the time a child spends clothed during the day from the time they first enter elementary until they graduate secondary school. In highschool (we had no uniforms), the vast majority of clothes I had were for wearing during the school week. Sure, I had other clothes for more specific things - going to concerts or parties, formal functions, work clothes, etc. But the vast majority of my wardrobe consisted of clothes for school.
I certainly understand wanting to have a choice in the matter, but, honestly, I think it's a bit weak to claim that kids need to learn fashion sense rather than reap the benefits of uniforms (less violence, more cohesive school culture, etc). Anyway, they're minors, right? So they don't have a say in the matter regardless.
You cant idiot proof kids. Again, as someone who went to a uniform school (a private then a public one), I can tell you that some kids can wear uniforms throughout their entire school life and still be unprepared for the workforce. The only thing that prepares you for the workforce, and for polite adult society, is the workforce and polite adult society. You simply have to learn harsh lessons in this regard early. Wearing my shitty public school uniform did nothing to prepare me for shirt and tie work, my parents did that, something which is out of the control of the education system.
No hats in classrooms goes without saying, you can still have a casual wear policy and enforce no hats in classroom rules. Thats manors, not fashion. Uniforms do nothing to reinforce discipline or respect, if they have any effect, its so minimal that you could measure the confidence boost in casual clothes some students get as a counter argument.
Im not sure of any studies that prove that uniforms prevent violence or enhance cohesive school structure, there are obviously lots of factors in this, uniforms may have a slight impact one way or the other. But in my particular case, my school would've been about the same without uniforms, and my experience as a student would've been greatly enhanced. Sorry for all the anecdotal arguments here, but id rather argue that, because its simply what I know. Also im lazy and dont want to look up statistics to prove or disprove things, hehe.
Uniforms in jobs can be pretty yucky and cheap as well, but you still have to wear them, you get no choice.. and you get no choice at school either.
Of course, my opinions on what school should be teaching socially and how students should be allowed to behave should probably in in another thread.
Then school uniforms will at most just delay the race to the bottom and just be a band aid on a much larger problem that will continue to be mostly ignored.
no, uniforms reinforce the idea that there is a certain expectation of what kids should be wearing in a classroom setting. like i said before, i don't think every school needs some kind of uniform. just the ones with students who have shown that they need that kind of structure since they can't handle it themselves.
that's why teachers and schools have written rules that are explained and reinforced during the first week of school.
so you're saying knowing what kind of dress is accepable in a more professional or formal setting won't help you in a job or a social situation. okay.
are you kidding me?!? a class would be a billion times harder to create and sustain and teach to every student than set school rules that are taught and discussed in every classroom. do you know anything about teaching?
but it doesn't replace schoolwide rules and regulations in terms of dress or decorum. come on.
that's great if schools want to teach an etiquette class, but that can't even come close to approaching the need for written rules about dress and behavior that are given out and discussed in every class.
edit:
and the reason why they have that for the learing challenged is becuase often times LD or IEP kids have impariments (specifically autistic kids) that cause them to be unable to pick up on social cues and the like, not because they can't match a suit and tie.
A lot of etiquette involves stuff that generally won't come up in class but can still be important.
Thats the thing tho, of course as a young teen I would've looked silly, as all young awkward teens do (especially metal rawr goth teens). But the same way I wasn't allowed to be awkward and silly looking, I also wasn't allowed to experiment and grow in that area. I was 18 or 19 before I really started to come into my own with my fashion, and nothing really changed about my physical appearance, it was simply how I carried and conveyed myself.
The argument could be made that I simply wouldn't have matured fashion-wise until that age anyway, but I think it would've sped things up. I wasnt an ugly kid, but I never got attention from females simply because I had such low self esteem, and spared no thought to improving my looks with clothing due to school uniforms being the only clothes I could wear. I had friends who were girls, I had an awesome personality, and lots of friends, but I would still get teased quite harshly, and never received any sexual female attention, this is crippling and affected other areas of my life, and eventually my attitudes (particularly to school work and my future). I didn't even realise how much clothes could improve my look. I had girls I knew in highschool suddenly going out with me in uni simply because they could see my arms and body shape, which hadnt changed since highschool, but they could now see. Its superficial bullshit but its how connections are made more often than not, its unfortunate lifes like that.
Along with all the respect and discipline stuff I would've loved to have been taught some self confidence and pride in my appearance in highschool. While trouble makers and bad students still disrupted classes, and hot girls still managed to wear sexily distracting stuff, the uniform did nothing to stop me from becoming apathetic about school and life simply because of social insecurities. I'm not crediting clothes with the whole awkward teen experience, but it is a large part, and as a smart, attractive kid I would have benefited from them. Basically what im saying is that uniforms have their merits, discipline, cohesion, school pride, but for me, personally, they werent helpful. As a disciplined, attentive and smart student, I felt that once again, the bullies, the disruptive elements, were taking away from my experience.
This happens so often in public schools, in so many aspects, the drag down effect, smart awkward kids get ignored whilst the problem kids not only disrupt learning and contribute to teasing you, but also to draining school time and resources, and taking focus away from kids who want to learn.
Its a small element, but I would've really appreciated it, retrospectively.
that's great, but we're talking about class and school. they way students should act in class translates to well beyond the classroom.
maybe i'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.
edit:
and prohass, i'm sorry that's what your deal was, but again, i think you're trying to project your own experiences ino a much bigger issue than it actually is. i mean honestly, you could've worn whatever you wanted outside of school. i think if having to wear a polo shirt when everyone else was wearing the same thing totally screwed with your confidence, you've porbably got other issues to deal with
okay, i definately agree with this then. but what does that have to do with a dress code or classroom management? if anything it just reinforces the need for them
This is true. Honestly, it didnt totally screw with my confidence, being lanky and having pimples were numbers 1 and 2, but im saying that uniforms didn't have any positive effect in my school environment, and were a negative for me. By years 11 and 12 (when most trouble students have left) the classrooms became quiet, teachers became your helpful friends, and girls seemed less and less important, especially with exams coming up. But 'Junior high' as its called in America, was a mess, mainly because of dipshit students with parents who've never disciplined them and a steadfast resolve to disrupt and ruin your education experience. Uniforms didnt stop them, or even slow them down, and they didnt help me at all.
I did wear whatever I wanted outside of school, but thats 2 days in a week, mostly spent in sports activities, or with friends. School is where all your peers are, where your social anxiety is the highest, and its the place where I looked the stupidest. It just sucked is all :P
I don't think the 'it protects poor kids from fashion ridicule' works at all.
Also, you end up having to do more laundry, as fuck staying in that horrible shit piece of a uniform after I got home.
And cost for these things can get retarded. Specifically in private schools. When in k-6 grade, it was white shirt with the school name on them (only 2 place in town to buy this, usually at least $20), navy blue shorts (not blue, not dark blue, navy, belt, white socks (you had to wear socks, and they had to come up past the top of your shoe at least, and black shoes (no exception, and they cant be mostly black with some white. They also decided randomly in 4th grade that everyone was to wear white shoes, with no black on them). All of this was fairly expensive, more so than normal clothes. I also felt bad for the girls. Same white shirt, P.E./gym shorts under a plaid (white, blue and green) jumper. When you got to 7-8 grade it changed to a skirt. they were only allowed to wear pants during the winter, and then only pants that had the schools name or mascot on them.
yeah, I hate uniforms
That's where consistency comes in. After a while, there just aren't as many challenges to the dress code, especially if it is common sense. Underwear showing is a no-no. Ladies' tops are okay as long as they do not have plunging necklines - and like the Supreme Court justice once said about obsenity, it's hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Ass hanging out, gents? Pull your damn pants up.
The cross dressing thing is an interesting case, and really comes down to an issue of community standards. I've heard of schools that allow it, others that don't. Knowing my district, a truly transgender student would likely be allowed to dress as they felt compelled, within the bounds of the aforementiond 4 Cs.
Being in a middle school, things are a bit more strict, dress code wise, than our high school. For the record, we are a very, very high performing district, with remarkably few serious incidents of bullying and hardly any fights (I think it has been two years since there was more than a shoving match in my building of 1300 kids). It's not nirvana - we do have a bit of a drug problem at the high school, but no worse than any other suburban district in our area. To all of the proponents of uniforms here, please explain how uniforms will substantially make things better in my district.
Again, the research, which has analyzed everything from discipline referrals to test scores to pregnancy rates has shown that uniforms in most American schools do nothing positive, and may actually lead to negative results, except in certain very specific cases where uniforms can be part of a comprehensive package of school reform for troubled buildings.
Yeah, I never really thought of uniforms as much more than a conviniency thing, but I take your point, and you're definitely more experienced in the area than I am.
Anecdotally, there is only one school in town I know of that doesn't have a uniform policy, and that's a school for Yr 11s and 12s only, which markets itself to students who are expected to perform better with much less restricting expectations. I've never really bought into the whole psychological baggage aspect of uniform wearing, but I'm sure there's a case for it.
Nobody here was, but I have heard uniform proponents claiming that uniforms will somehow magically keep the kids from bumping nasties. You know, if kids aren't wearing the hoochie clothes showing off their bits and pieces and all of that. I guess these people have never heard of the schoolgirl uniform fetish.
Fixed it for ya.
Seriously, I don't see this individualism in High School that everyone talks about. If anything, its the one time where you are MOST pressured to be categorized into a clique. Especially in the later years if HS where picking colleges comes into play. Everyone gets sorted into whether you're going to an expensive school or a state school, athletic scholarship or not. art school, trade school, or technical. And everyone gets grouped into those stereotypes. It isn't until college, where you've made your choice and you're corralled together into a group of people who are just like you, obviously, because you got into the same college. that you're really forced to stand out and be an individual. not to mention the responsibility of living on your own for the first time.
I didn't do too well in college my first time out, so over the years, I've been going back to school to finish up, and I see it all the time in the freshman level courses that I had to retake. for a good third of the semester, its impossible to get an opinion out of froshes. Every time a professor will open a question up to the floor. It's dead fucking silence. new freshmen have been so indoctrinated with group-think, and suddenly they're asked for their own unique opinion and they turn into mutes. It's anecdotal evidence, I realize that. But that is what I see.
It is interesting to note, that when I was in High School, the issues of uniforms came up. I was against it too. Now, post-schooling, I'm for uniforms. And I know im not the only one who has gone through that change of opinion. So it would just be interesting to break it down, and find out among those who are for/against uniforms and whether or not they're still in HS or not.
And fuck. I don't think anyone is advocating elaborate uniforms by any means. even just a standard t-shirt and shorts for spring and early fall would suffice. So I don't think you can just lump all uniforms into the "ugly, uncomfortable" stereotype. If you're going to do uniforms, do it right. Make them comfortable, and make them cheap. done.
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You do realize that women are expected to wear something different to work every day, right? Most of the women in the office where I work don't wear the same outfit more than once every three months. And then they change the top / bottom combination so it doesn't look like the "same outfit."
I don't think by any stretch of the imagination you could say that Western society is suffering from not enough individualism.
How about more important then greatly increased security?
This is one of the points brought up by Heath and Potter in the Rebel Sell. Specifically, how the counterculture has traditionally rejected any solution to a problem they see as not 'deep enough.' Anything less than, say, a total revolution where all you need is love is to be opposed, as it doesn't go far enough, or is perceived as being the Man trying to placate the masses. Potter and Heath also applied this to contemporary social activists, who, rather than take that sometimes slow or piecemeal change that the legislative process is so effective at, instead decry such slow change or reform as not getting to the 'root cause', and, as such, anything less than a complete overall in how one approaches this root cause is to be damned.
In this case, I happen to agree with them. It is not like we are going to be stopping consumerism anytime soon, especially among the people with the largest disposable incomes - so why don't we try to at least to minimize the aspect of it (via uniforms) that has the largest negative social effects on young people for a significant portion of their early life? Sure, trying to get rid of consumerism among young people is a noble cause, but just how are we going to do that? And even if you have some concrete action plan that actually works (rather than just feeds into the cycle), why should we wait around until we can implement it? What is wrong with simpler solutions that can be implemented now?
I actually have no objection to uniforms in principle, but this particular uniform involved a wool blazer, which has to be the most impractical garment ever created by man. If it's warm, you bake. If it's cold, the wind cuts right through it. If it rains, it absorbs the water like nobody's business, gets incredibly heavy, and it smells.
We have nothing, and we have never had any problems here. Maybe one or two fights a year.
Pshaw. Adults hardly even know how to dress themselves.
You're right. It doesn't. The economic differences will still be apparent through other means that are just as blatant as different clothing. The kind of car the person drives (try dictating what cars teens can and cannot drive to school), the jewelry they wear or even something like the appearance of their hair (gel/styled/highlights).
People use the argument that high school is intended to prepare people for the real world. Teaching them that everyone is identical is not proper preparation. People are different, learn to deal with it.
A) Someone who wants to do real harm in a school setting won't let the dress code stop them.