Smug Vegetarians

Squirminator2k

Vegetarians are an interesting lot. I'm not against vegetarianism or veganism as a concept. I understand why people choose not to eat meat. My sister was a vegetarian for the longest time until she remembered how much she loved bacon. That's fine.

But why do some vegetarians and vegans decide that because they've chosen not to eat a particular thing that they are somehow better people? Furthermore, why will these people judge a person not for the works they have accomplished or the deeds they have done, but by what type of food passes through their digestive tract? I, for example, have recently been branded a Bad Person by a vegetarian because I eat meat. Never mind the charity work I've done in the past, or the fact that I am generally speaking a rather selfless person. I'm a terrible human being because I had a bacon buttie for breakfast.

I know why people choose to be vegetarians or vegans. In some respects it's admirable. But the minute you start trying to forcefeed, haha, your agenda down my throat all respect and admiration I had goes out of the window. Eat what you want, just don't tell me that I'm a bad person because I prefer to eat dead animals.

Yar

Your question is your answer, in many cases. IME, smug vegetarians choose their lifestyle specifically for purpose of feeling better than others, and rarely stick to it, eventually moving on to another form of feeling superior.

mastman

We're omnivores. I don't get the whole righteous animals have feelings too thing so don't eat them.

Wonder_Hippie

We're omnivores, are we not? I don't see much of a reason for vegetarianism, unless you're doing your part to protest slash and burn in South America/treatment of animals/consumption of cute things, but it's so much more effective to just be selective about the meat you do buy. I live in an area that's supplied by Berry beef from Berry college right down the street, and Berry makes a habit of being organic, eco-friendly, and PETA freidnly, so if a vegetarian or vegan ever comes up to me with a smug attitude, I can actually take the moral highground on the issue.

Fallingman

Some people choose vegetarianism for what they consider to be moral reasons. Therefore it stands that they feel that people who dont are somehow less moral. It could be the same with people that set their behavior on a religious code. Anyone who doesn't is amoral.

Basically - its about how you treat people with a different lifestyle to you because of a different outlook on life. It doesn't matter why you do it... It just makes you a bit of a dick.

Zalbinion

Squirminator2k wrote: »

I know why people choose to be vegetarians or vegans. In some respects it's admirable. But the minute you start trying to forcefeed, haha, your agenda down my throat all respect and admiration I had goes out of the window. Eat what you want, just don't tell me that I'm a bad person because I prefer to eat dead animals.

In my experience, people don't eat meat either for health reasons or animal rights reasons. If it's health and they're "force-feeding" you their ideology, then they're almost certainly just pushy assmunches.

If it's animal rights, however, they're "force-feeding" you their ideology (which, by the way, needs some major elaboration so we really know what you're talking about) because they see meat eating and the meat industry and, occasionally, domesticated animals in general as fundamentally a civil rights issue. Here's a ridiculous-sounding analogy: when a hard-core vegetarian sees you eating a hamburger, to them it's kind of like*** eating an African-Americanburger. Of the human-as-meat variety.

***not "the same exact thing," but "kind of like"

Plus, re: omnivores: just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Disclaimer: I am not a vegetarian; I just think they should get a fair shake.

Corlis

Probably because they either see eating animals as immoral (in the same vein as killing other humans for food) or see treating food-animals as we do as immoral (industrial chicken coops are pretty unpleasant places for chickens). Logically then if you do those things you are immoral yourself and should be treated with scorn, just as you'd consider immoral a guy who dumped a girl just because he liked to see her cry and would treat him like the jerk he is.

Of course, it's arguable that treating and eating animals as we do is immoral, or at least that it's immoral enough for meat-eaters to be treated as crud. (Some vegetarians simply enjoy feeling superior too, I suppose, but such enjoyment is hardly restricted to just vegetarians).

Squirminator2k

A friend of mine compared eating meat to taking heroin, and considers people who sell meat products to be on the same moral level as drug dealers.

I mean, what?

Hi I'm Vee!

According to a friend of mine, who is vegan, we aren't actually omnivores. Or rather, I guess we are technically, but while we can eat meat, we weren't meant to eat meat. Or animal products at all, really. Our teeth aren't really sharp enough to tear the meat like carnivores do, and our digestive tract has a lot of trouble processing meat. According to him, after 50 years we have something like several ounces (maybe a pound? I forget the exact amount) of little bits of meat hanging out in our small intestine. Or something.

I've never actually done the research on this because I don't care enough about it to stop eating meat. Mmmm, steak.

Chop Logic

Theres probobly a higher percent of meat eaters who automatically judge vegetarians than vegetarians who automatically judge meat eaters.

I'm not defending pretentious vegetarians. I probobly hate them more than you do, because I'm vegan, and whenever one starts up a conversation around me it makes things incredibly akward for me.

On the flip side of this discussion: As a vegan, I almost never tell anyone that I'm vegan. Ever. Only if it comes up and I have to say something. If someone offers me meat or something else I don't eat, I just say "No, thanks." I hardly ever bring it up because I don't want to be seen as one of those people who thinks that they're 'better' for being vegan, and because whenever you tell some people that you're vegetarian, they start telling you how unhealthy it is. This is the most annoying thing. I've done my homework, read books, researched, etc. I know my diet is healthy. Healthier than a meat eating diet? I don't know, it depends.

I just wanted to throw this out there. I don't think being vegetarian makes one pretentious or 'smug', its just that there are a lot of pretention people in the world, and some of them happen to be vegetarians.

It's just like a lot of things in life. Most people I meet would have no idea I was vegan, it's probobly the case with most vegetarians. So whenever most people meet someone and know they're vegetarian, it's because they're very outspoken and most likley pretentious about it, making it easy to think that all vegetarians are that way.

Edit: VisibleHowl - Your freind is right. I can post some info about it if you're interested, otherwise I'd rather not turn this into that type of argument.

Blackjack

Squirminator2k wrote: »

A friend of mine compared eating meat to taking heroin, and considers people who sell meat products to be on the same moral level as drug dealers.

I mean, what?

It is possible your friend is crazy.

zeeny

Fallingman wrote: »

Some people choose vegetarianism for what they consider to be moral reasons. Therefore it stands that they feel that people who dont are somehow less moral. It could be the same with people that set their behavior on a religious code. Anyone who doesn't is amoral.

Basically - its about how you treat people with a different lifestyle to you because of a different outlook on life. It doesn't matter why you do it... It just makes you a bit of a dick.

I'm a vegetarian and my feelings on people eating meat/veggies are the same as they're on every other polarized issue out there. Do whatever you want and leave the others choose for themselves. From my very limited experience, preaching veggies are in most cases people that don't eat meat to have a topic to talk about.(bad generalization but I couldn't stop myself......)

Edit: I also don't like "moral" having a place in discussion about what ones eat, but then, I'm not big fan of the word anyway.

Hi I'm Vee!

To actually contribute to the discussion, I can't even tell you the number of times I've tried to be friends with, or dated, a vegetarian/vegan, and have them tell me "lol don't worry I won't try to convert you" and have that turn out to be a filthy lie.

I have met at least 50-60 vegetarians/vegans in my life, and only one, the friend I mentioned in the previous post, has not ended up making an active effort to convert me.

I also just realized that like the past 4 girls I've dated have been vegetarians. Weird.

mastman

visiblehowl wrote: »

According to a friend of mine, who is vegan, we aren't actually omnivores. Or rather, I guess we are technically, but while we can eat meat, we weren't meant to eat meat. Or animal products at all, really. Our teeth aren't really sharp enough to tear the meat like carnivores do,/QUOTE]

Yes, we don't have the mouths of tigers or lions, but we do have fingers, opposable thumbs, and fire.

Wonder_Hippie

visiblehowl wrote: »

According to a friend of mine, who is vegan, we aren't actually omnivores. Or rather, I guess we are technically, but while we can eat meat, we weren't meant to eat meat. Or animal products at all, really. Our teeth aren't really sharp enough to tear the meat like carnivores do, and our digestive tract has a lot of trouble processing meat. According to him, after 50 years we have something like several ounces (maybe a pound? I forget the exact amount) of little bits of meat hanging out in our small intestine. Or something.

I've never actually done the research on this because I don't care enough about it to stop eating meat. Mmmm, steak.

Your friend is full of a lot of shit. We have canines and incisors, which means we're naturally capable of eating meat. If we weren't, we'd be all molars and I'd eat like my rabbit. We also have the enzymes in our stomach to process meat, it's only certain meats that stick around in our colons. Part of this is because we're "supposed" to eat raw meat, technically. The appendix was likely part of a system that aided the processing of straight raw meat as well as fighting harmful bacteria and parasites, but we learned to cook, so it became vestigial.

Still, we've got the bacteria and enzymes in our stomach that retrieve energy from meat, as well as the hardware to ingest it, so your friend is wrong.

Squirminator2k

Chop Logic wrote: »

Theres probobly a higher percent of meat eaters who automatically judge vegetarians than vegetarians who automatically judge meat eaters.

In fairness, there are probably more meat eaters (or meaters) in the world than there are vegetarians.

Sorry, I'm interrupting. Do go on.

Chop Logic wrote: »

I'm not defending pretentious vegetarians. I probobly hate them more than you do, because I'm vegan, and whenever one starts up a conversation around me it makes things incredibly akward for me.

On the flip side of this discussion: As a vegan, I almost never tell anyone that I'm vegan. Ever. Only if it comes up and I have to say something. If someone offers me meat or something else I don't eat, I just say "No, thanks." I hardly ever bring it up because I don't want to be seen as one of those people who thinks that they're 'better' for being vegan, and because whenever you tell some people that you're vegetarian, they start telling you how unhealthy it is. This is the most annoying thing. I've done my homework, read books, researched, etc. I know my diet is healthy. Healthier than a meat eating diet? I don't know, it depends.

I just wanted to throw this out there. I don't think being vegetarian makes one pretentious or 'smug', its just that there are a lot of pretention people in the world, and some of them happen to be vegetarians.

It's just like a lot of things in life. Most people I meet would have no idea I was vegan, it's probobly the case with most vegetarians. So whenever most people meet someone and know they're vegetarian, it's because they're very outspoken and most likley pretentious about it, making it easy to think that all vegetarians are that way.

I used to have an automatic blanket-judgement that all vegetarians and vegans are arrogant people, but then I realised this is because the only vegetarians I'd met were... well, arrogant people. I've since met all manner of people, some of whom were vegetarian/vegan and some who weren't, and it doesn't honestly bother me. You don't want to eat meat? That's cool. So long as you don't judge me for ordering the chicken salad, I'm happy.

Zalbinion

Squirminator2k wrote: »

A friend of mine compared eating meat to taking heroin, and considers people who sell meat products to be on the same moral level as drug dealers.

I mean, what?

Have you bothered to ask that friend to explain their reasoning?

I mean, off the top of my head I can think of this devil's advocacy:

- It's like taking heroin because eating meat in our society with our meat industry means that meat-eating is not very healthy on average (unless you're much more careful about monitoring your diet than the average American).

- If eating meat is like taking heroin, then those people selling meat are intentionally selling you something that's not good for you. Either they're the "street-level dealer," just doing it to make a living and not really malicious about it, or they're a meat industry exec or marketer and they're actively promoting meat consumption.

Edit: not really meant to be as combative as it came out, nor to be an endorsement of the view.

Octoparrot

It is a slippery slope. I don't really force my ideas on people because I pretty much can't socialize with anyone anyway. I view trying to push vegetarianism at people like christians who approach people with "SO HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?".

There's a saying that goes, "mind your own damn business", which I try to follow.

It's less people being evil and more being, some would say hypocritical, but more like ill-informed or somehow buffered from the consequences of their actions. We're living in a society where people want their food de-veined, de-boned and shaped into squares. Then they don't like the sight of an animal being butchered or being presented like a duck or fish with the head still on. I have much respect for those who can kill their own prey, or who enjoy Offal.

Gooey

Squirminator2k wrote: »

A friend of mine compared eating meat to taking heroin, and considers people who sell meat products to be on the same moral level as drug dealers.

I mean, what?

Your friend ought to be punched.



I'm of a similar stance. I have nothing against vegitarians, and most vegitarians have nothing against people who attempt to be carnivores like myself.

However, I cannot stand smug vegitarians wearing thier PETA shirts yelling at me through the window of a very nice restraunt about how I'm a murderer while I'm trying to enjoy the perfect sirloin.

The concept of moral relativisim is lost on some people, I guess.

RichardTauber

Anybody ever read anything about energy loss in between stages of the feeding chain? Like how we give soybean protein to cows so we then can eat the cow? Meat is very energy consuming.

mcdermott

I'll throw in with the "many people are just pretentious, and vegetarianism/veganism give them a good outlet for that." Same way there are pretentious Mac owners or pretentious coffee drinkers.

As far as the whole "any body who says they won't try to covert you if you date them is a liar" thing...duh. Not eating meat is a pretty big lifestyle choice, and being around somebody who doesn't make the same is going to be difficult. Either because they actually do miss meat and watching you eat it is tempting, because they really do care about you and think it's bad for your health, or because they really do care about the whole cruelty to animals aspect and it hurts them to see you participate.

Either way for a majority of vegetarians watching you eat meat daily isn't going to be easy. And since the two of you are making the choice to be together (as opposed to family members, who you have to deal with anyway), it should not be surprising when they begin to demand more as far as this goes.

Vegetarianism/veganism is a lot like religion in that respect...except often more so, because I can likely ignore what church you attend once a week (if that) as long as a majority of our core values line up...it's a lot harder for me to ignore what you're eating in front of me three times a day.

EDIT: "Me" being hypothetical. I'm no vegetarian.

LadyM

But why do some vegetarians and vegans decide that because they've chosen not to eat a particular thing that they are somehow better people?

Well, if they are not eating it for moral reasons (if they believe eating animals is wrong), then they probably think they're better people because they're refraining from something that will cause animals pain unnecessarily and you aren't. I'm not a vegetarian, but it is really that hard to figure out their point of view? Look at it this way . . . If someone says, "Man, I really enjoy shooting toddlers!" and you, in fact, believe shooting toddlers is wrong and do NOT shoot toddlers . . . wouldn't you feel morally superior to that person? I know I would.

I'm not saying that shooting toddlers is as bad as eating animals, or that eating animals is bad at all. But obviously if someone is a vegetarian for moral reasons, THEY believe eating animals is bad, and you need to take that into consideration when you think about their reasoning.

On a side note, arguments that humans "should/shouldn't" eat animals because "we're meant to/we aren't meant to" are pretty stupid. We ARE omnivores and we CAN eat meat, certainly. But having the ability and instincts to do something makes it neither right nor wrong. Try cheating on your girlfriend/wife and then saying, "But honey! My instincts tell me to sleep with as many healthy women as possible in order to spread my genes and help propogate healthy offspring for the human race! So obviously I SHOULD!" Yeah, try that and see how it goes over.

Octoparrot

It also would suck if you had to taste veal every time you made out.

Or, reciprocally, tahini.

Quid

Squirminator2k wrote: »

But why do some vegetarians and vegans decide that because they've chosen not to eat a particular thing that they are somehow better people? Furthermore, why will these people judge a person not for the works they have accomplished or the deeds they have done, but by what type of food passes through their digestive tract?

They're dumb jerks. Okay? They'd be dumb jerks if they weren't vegetarians, they'd be dumb jerks if they ate dead raw cow. Thread fucking solved.

Gooey

I eat meat because it tastes good and I have no moral objection to what goes on to produce said meat.

Also, Quid is smart.

mcdermott

Octoparrot wrote: »

It also would suck if you had to taste veal every time you made out.

Or, reciprocally, tahini.

Actually, it's the patchouli smell that gets me. Since most smug vegetarians I've met have tended to be pretty granola'd out.

evilbob

I never felt superior when I was, but then I didn't do it for moral reasons. Drunken bet vegetarianism ftw.

Wonder_Hippie

mcdermott wrote: »

Octoparrot wrote: »

It also would suck if you had to taste veal every time you made out.

Or, reciprocally, tahini.

Actually, it's the patchouli smell that gets me. Since most smug vegetarians I've met have tended to be pretty granola'd out.

Ba dum *ching*

Casual Eddy

I'm an armchair vegetarian. I appreciate how energy efficient eating plants is and how it's better for the environment, but I just like eating meat.

Hi I'm Vee!

To pull out a blatantly self-serving pop reference, I take the Louis CK view on eating meat, which is, "I know killing animals and eating them is wrong, I just don't care, because they taste good."

VoodooV

Yar wrote: »

Your question is your answer, in many cases. IME, smug vegetarians choose their lifestyle specifically for purpose of feeling better than others, and rarely stick to it, eventually moving on to another form of feeling superior.

Thread over.

I would go on a lot of road trips for climbing competitions and such and whenever we had a certain member with us, we would have to find a Subway to eat at since at the time, I guess it was the only big franchise that with a vegetarian menu. At first, I didn't care, I liked Subway, but over time, I'd just get sick of eating at the same place over and over. Fortunately, I wasn't the only one that felt that way and we inevitably just started to split up into groups and eat whatever was in walking distance.

It was a big issue for a while though because there were people who thought we all had to eat as a group. Well, no, we don't.

I just thought it was amusing because it was an issue that started because of the whole "being sensitive to vegetarians" thing. But we didn't care about that, we just got sick of eating at the same place over and over again.

Squirminator2k

Let me ask you guys a question: If you're out for a meal with friends, and one of them is a vegetarian, do you have any problems ordering meat dishes? I personally don't, because if the friend has any respect for you they won't balk and your decision, and it's not like you're going to Rugby tackle your friend as they'er coming back frmo the salad bar and force lamb down their throat.

Quid

Why the Hell would I go out eating with friends who would be offended that I was eating fish?

Why the Hell are they even my friends?

Hi I'm Vee!

Squirminator2k wrote: »

Let me ask you guys a question: If you're out for a meal with friends, and one of them is a vegetarian, do you have any problems ordering meat dishes? I personally don't, because if the friend has any respect for you they won't balk and your decision, and it's not like you're going to Rugby tackle your friend as they'er coming back frmo the salad bar and force lamb down their throat.

I have no issue eating meat in front of them. It's their choice, not mine.

Edit: In the same way, I have no problem when my friends drink around me, despite the fact that I can't really drink.

GoodOmens

This thread isn't really about vegetarianism, it's about assholeism. Some veggies are assholes, perhaps assholery is more common among vegetarians. But the issue is being an asshole, not eating zucchini.

Hi I'm Vee!

GoodOmens wrote: »

This thread isn't really about vegetarianism, it's about assholeism. Some veggies are assholes, perhaps assholery is more common among vegetarians. But the issue is being an asshole, not eating zucchini.

Hey, meateaters eat zucchini too.

Zucchini is delicious.

mcdermott

Squirminator2k wrote: »

Let me ask you guys a question: If you're out for a meal with friends, and one of them is a vegetarian, do you have any problems ordering meat dishes? I personally don't, because if the friend has any respect for you they won't balk and your decision, and it's not like you're going to Rugby tackle your friend as they'er coming back frmo the salad bar and force lamb down their throat.

Hah! How little you know me...

Seriously though, I don't have any problem with it. I may abstain from ordering something that still has the face attached, but that's about it. There are a couple things my wife really doesn't like on the whole "animal cruelty" level...veal and live-boiled lobster come to mind. Personally I couldn't care less about either of those, but if I did like them I would still not order them when she was around, since at that point the limitation is reasonable.

But not eating meat in general? Well fuck, you just eliminated like 90% of the menu. Blow me.

If you're so strongly opposed to meat (for whatever reason, but especially if it's animal cruelty) that you can't stand to be around me when I eat meat, then you probably shouldn't be friends with my meat-eating ass in general. It's not like I have a lot of buddies in the Aryan Nation...I strongly disagree with some of their core practices and beliefs.

Hell, if you're that opposed to meat why are we (more specifically, you) eating at a restaurant that serves it anyway? That's like a Mormon hitting the bar to drink a soda.

I've never had much problem with this, though. Most vegetarians I know wouldn't say anything, nor would they do anything to make you uncomfortable about your decision. The ones that actually feel that strongly about the issue probably wouldn't be friends with me anyway (or eat where I eat), and the ones that don't but still feel the need to say something would probably just be pretentious assholes. Which I try to avoid hanging out with.

Shinto

Squirminator2k wrote: »

Vegetarians are an interesting lot. I'm not against vegetarianism or veganism as a concept. I understand why people choose not to eat meat. My sister was a vegetarian for the longest time until she remembered how much she loved bacon. That's fine.

But why do some vegetarians and vegans decide that because they've chosen not to eat a particular thing that they are somehow better people?

Probably in something of the same way you would feel morally superior to a person that owned slaves.

I mean, once you look at animal rights from their perspective, it naturally follows that dickish vegetarians would feel the way they do.

Shinto

mcdermott wrote: »

I'll throw in with the "many people are just pretentious, and vegetarianism/veganism give them a good outlet for that." Same way there are pretentious Mac owners or pretentious coffee drinkers.

As far as the whole "any body who says they won't try to covert you if you date them is a liar" thing...duh.

I never tried to convert my wife.

So while it is perhaps a prevalent trend, I wouldn't say it was an assumption that didn't make an ass out of you and Uma Thurman.

mcdermott

Shinto wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

I'll throw in with the "many people are just pretentious, and vegetarianism/veganism give them a good outlet for that." Same way there are pretentious Mac owners or pretentious coffee drinkers.

As far as the whole "any body who says they won't try to covert you if you date them is a liar" thing...duh.

I never tried to convert my wife.

So while it is perhaps a prevalent trend, I wouldn't say it was an assumption that didn't make an ass out of you and Uma Thurman.

You and your damn dirty exceptions...begone!

But yeah, prevalent. If you're surprised when somebody tries to convert you, despite the fact that they pinky-swore that they wouldn't, you're not so bright.

Shinto

mcdermott wrote: »

Shinto wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

I'll throw in with the "many people are just pretentious, and vegetarianism/veganism give them a good outlet for that." Same way there are pretentious Mac owners or pretentious coffee drinkers.

As far as the whole "any body who says they won't try to covert you if you date them is a liar" thing...duh.

I never tried to convert my wife.

So while it is perhaps a prevalent trend, I wouldn't say it was an assumption that didn't make an ass out of you and Uma Thurman.

You and your damn dirty exceptions...begone!

But yeah, prevalent. If you're surprised when somebody tries to convert you, despite the fact that they pinky-swore that they wouldn't, you're not so bright.

Indeed.

For instance, Irond Will is in the process of converting his girlfriend into a meat eater.