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Family Drama - What to do?

tuscloud311tuscloud311 Registered User regular
edited October 2007 in Help / Advice Forum
Hey guys,

I'll try to keep it short. My sister and brother are pretty close. They go out to bars frequently, and generally just talk like friends. I have never really been into that scene, so im more or less left out, thus making me not as close (at least to my sister. My brother and i have been pretty close all our lives).

So my brother starts dating a girl from work, which is already a bad thing. The relationship just goes entirely downhill, and he (eventually) breaks up with her. Its still awkward because they still work DIRECTLY with eachother. I work at the same place, so i see them together and it seems as though they dont flirt, fight, etc etc....so all seems well right?

About 4-5 months after the final breakup, he begins to date a LONG time friend of his. EVERYONE in our family adores her, and we are all happy they are together and everything is great right? Wrong.

My brother cannot stop talking to his ex. Outside of work especially. They email eachother, and blah blah blah, flirting left and right, it sucks. i hate to see him do this while he is with such a great person. I asked him about what he thinks of his new GF (kind of like "hey, you guys doing ok?") and he says hes never been happier, hes head over heels with her, etc etc.

So i begin to wonder why he would do this.....well, i go to a party with him, and i was the DD and picked him up at his place. As i enter, his ex is there with him. I asked if she is going as well, and they said yes. So it is us 3. We head to to the party, and he decides to go outside to smoke. She follows (which can be expected) and i stay inside hanging out and what not. 30 minutes pass, and he is STILL outside with her talking. He pulls me aside, and says nothing is going on, hes in love with his girlfriend, but they just have a lot to talk about lately.

so im like oh ok cool, np. well...he stays outside, alone, in the dark, with her for the rest of the night. We go out to get dinner, and we get a booth. im on 1 side, while they are on the other....and i can tell that she is rubbing his crotch (thank god i didnt look there)....I was trying to see if he would be returning the favor, so i could be 100 % sure that he is doing that shit behind his GF's back.

Well, this is where my sister gets involved. My sister and his ex are real good friends now, and it turns out that his ex told my sister that they kissed that night and everything else. My sister tells me, and im like wtf!

I called his friend, and told him everything....he says its not my place to say anything, but he is good friends with my brothers GF, and he feels obligated to tell her. Now granted, he didnt see anything, it was all what i saw.

finally, my questions to you all:

1. Do i have any place to tell his girlfriend? we were also good friends before he got with her, so it wouldnt be awkward for me to tell her
2. If no, is it his friend's place to tell her?
3. if no, does it need to be mentioned to her AT ALL?

4. If yes, then who does it?

Everyone in my family absolutely loves her, like i said before....and we all think (everyone who knows) that he messed up, but they are all yelling at me not to say anything and to just drop it. i dont know if i can...HELP!

tl;dr. caught my brother and his ex doing stuff with eachother, should i tell his new, awesome, girlfriend?

tuscloud311 on
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    HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The boyfriend, your brother, should tell her. If not, then his friend should tell her. Nobody's looking out for her feelings, and it's sick. Nonetheless, she can stop being your friend but you can't stop being related to your family, so family relationships should take precedent.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The boyfriend, your brother, should tell her. If not, then his friend should tell her. Nobody's looking out for her feelings, and it's sick. Nonetheless, she can stop being your friend but you can't stop being related to your family, so family relationships should take precedent.

    I will agree that family takes precedent, so the op shouldn't necessarily tell, but he should smack the hell out of his brother for being a cheater and potentially hurting a family friend, hopefully knocking some sense into him.

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    HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Oh yeah, bro sounds like a dick.

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    tuscloud311tuscloud311 Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    i agree'd to that as well, that the friend should tell her. As much as i love my brother and hes family and all that....if he does this without remorse, then he should NOT be with her. She deserves better....looking out for her feelings, right?

    Problem is, they (being family) yelled at me and cussed at me because i need to convince my friend not to say anything to her. But i feel like he should. right or wrong?

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    PirateJonPirateJon Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Sounds like you want to get with her.

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    tuscloud311tuscloud311 Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    haha, i did like 2 years ago, but now she is like a part of my family...shes another sister to me.

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Dude isn't it obvious that your brother comes first?

    It isn't about whether you approve of what he is doing or not. He is your brother. Two wrongs certainly won't make a right. and doing what you have already half done is NOT the noble solution. Try to influence his actions sure, but do not interfere.

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    TashTash Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Dude isn't it obvious that your brother comes first?

    It isn't about whether you approve of what he is doing or not. He is your brother. Two wrongs certainly won't make a right. and doing what you have already half done is NOT the noble solution. Try to influence his actions sure, but do not interfere.

    When his brother went and cheated on his girlfriend who is considered part of the family, any sort of commitment he had to him regarding this situation is gone.


    I'm sorry, but your brother is acting like a skeeze.

    Tash on
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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    and you might have obligations to family, but no to family regarding how you treat your friends. You are under no obligation to talk your friend out of telling anyone anything....period. That's his call to make.

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I couldn't disagree more.

    Its his fault that the friend knows, so then its going to be his fault that the gf knows. Look I know that your brother is being a douchebag but you are being a douchebag too by effectively telling his girlfriend. Seriously, what do you think that will solve? Piss your brother off and damage your relationship. Familial relationships are the some of the most important in our lives, certainly more important than this 'nice girl who is like family'.

    You want the girl to find out. In the worst possible way.

    I can't believe that I have to explain that you don't out your cheating brother. I would assume that shit is fundamental.

    EDIT: your loyalties should have been to your brother, your friends loyalties are whatever they are. That you would just fly off the handle and tell someone I can only assume you knew would probably pass it on was either intentional or an extroardinary lapse of judgement

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    tuscloud311tuscloud311 Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    well, i guess what is really bothering me, is that HE wont tell her. I would be a lot more understanding if he was like "yeah man, i fucked up....i will let her know, and say im sorry blah blah"...but he is getting defensive AGAINST me.

    Aight so now what? let him make his own decision? i for one will not say a word, i know my position in all of this. I dont think i will ever look at my brother the same if he does this without coming clean to her.

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    HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    It shouldn't be simply a matter of loyalties. She's in a relationship under false pretenses of fidelity, and the longer that's the case the greater the fallout will be.

    And what's the worst the brother will face if someone comes clean to her? He'll lose a girl he was already taking for granted? I'm sorry, but that's no tragedy.

    Doing the right thing ought to supersede everything else, under all circumstances. It's only because inter-family confrontation should be avoided that it's better that someone else tell the girlfriend. Given a choice between the OP telling her directly and nobody telling her, I'd definitely approve of the former.

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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Why would an arbitrary connection like blood "obviously" take precedence over friends?

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    ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Let's say you do break the news to the GF. Is your brother going to be pissed at you? Probably. But if he has any decency whatsoever, he'll realize that what he was doing was a real dick move. Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned, but I'd take some concern over the reputation of your family as a whole over how happy your brother is with you for a few weeks. This girl, and maybe her family, are a really close friend of your family? How's it going to feel when she finds out everyone knew about it and no one told her.

    Your brother is thinking with his dick right now. You DID let him make his own decision. There's absolutely no reason why you should help him avoid the consequences. He made that mess. Let him clean up the results. If/when the shit does hit the fan, I wouldn't offer him any consolation, either.

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Its a choice. You can go through life treating your relatives as people you just happen to have spent all your formative years with and react to them as you would anyone else. Or you can, as the saying goes, 'love him like a brother'.

    This second option is becoming less and less popular in the modern western world. It is pretty hard as everyone is probably closely related to at least one dickhead. I don't believe in any mystical bond but you can choose to say 'these people are my family and for better or for worse I want to love them, and I want them to love me'.

    This is why I think you should not have 'betrayed' your brother like that.

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    HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Since when does love mean allowing yourself to become complicit in the harmful actions of another?

    In fact, allowing the brother to indulge in this behavior prevents him from ever outgrowing it. Therefore, love should permit you to step in, if only for his sake.

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    ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Its a choice. You can go through life treating your relatives as people you just happen to have spent all your formative years with and react to them as you would anyone else. Or you can, as the saying goes, 'love him like a brother'.

    This second option is becoming less and less popular in the modern western world. It is pretty hard as everyone is probably closely related to at least one dickhead. I don't believe in any mystical bond but you can choose to say 'these people are my family and for better or for worse I want to love them, and I want them to love me'.

    This is why I think you should not have 'betrayed' your brother like that.


    It's because I know my family loves me that I'd expect them to make it damn well clear when I'm doing something they don't approve of. His brother's defensive for two reasons: a) He's ashamed of what he's doing but can't stop himself and/or b) he just doesn't want to deal with the consequences of his actions.

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    tuscloud311tuscloud311 Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    i can agree with both sides. I personally feel like i should not tell her, but rather being a driving force for someone who WILL tell her. That way, my brother cant point a finger at me and hate me for it, but at the same time i can feel a sense of satisfaction, that it was mentioned.

    Or should i just directly tell her? i guess thats the updated question.

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I understand that and agree. His brother is in the wrong.

    BUT there is a grey area A MILE WIDE between finding out your brother is cheating on his girlfriend then
    a) immediately telling someone who is probably going to tell the girlfriend
    b) not saying anything.

    between those two things is what I believe to be the correct course of action.

    EDIT: if your brother knows what you have told us then I'm pretty sure he will place the blame entirely on you.

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    GdiguyGdiguy San Diego, CARegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Its a choice. You can go through life treating your relatives as people you just happen to have spent all your formative years with and react to them as you would anyone else. Or you can, as the saying goes, 'love him like a brother'.

    This second option is becoming less and less popular in the modern western world. It is pretty hard as everyone is probably closely related to at least one dickhead. I don't believe in any mystical bond but you can choose to say 'these people are my family and for better or for worse I want to love them, and I want them to love me'.

    This is why I think you should not have 'betrayed' your brother like that.

    I don't really understand this attitude at all; you can still love your brother while thinking he's acting like an immature dick, and if he doesn't still love you after you call him out on his dickish-ness then he's not worth caring about.

    I can agree that you probably shouldn't be the one to tell her, since that just creates even more drama... but especially if the girl is someone you actually care about, it's not right to just let your brother screw her over because he's your brother and you should cover his ass no matter what.

    In my mind, that's more what family should be - you can recognize when people you love fuck up, it's more that you continue to love them despite their fuckups than that you actively help them cover up their mistakes

    *edit* I can agree with the last post - immediately telling someone else is probably not the best idea, but if you give your brother a reasonable opportunity to come clean and he refuses, there's not really that many choices - you either tell her (directly or indirectly) or you don't. If he's not willing to, sitting back and waiting for her to figure it out is just as wimpy as he's being

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    PirateJonPirateJon Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    It'll all end badly anyway, might as well just tell her and get the drama over with.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited October 2007
    Why would an arbitrary connection like blood "obviously" take precedence over friends?

    The fact that you share some genes should mean fuck-all. If you're interested in maintaining a relationship with him, that's important of course, but this whole "We popped out of the same cooch, so you have obligations, man!" thing is crap.

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    SliverSliver Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I'm shocked. It's an "I caught someone cheating" thread and it isn't 12 pages of "They're adults and it's none of your goddamned business what they do" posts.

    Tell the GF.

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    eternalbleternalbl Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I made a post about how its not your concern, but that really won't help you much. You obviously think what he's doing is very wrong, but what I don't understand is why do you think his GF needs to know he's doing this and what makes it your job to tell her?

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    aesiraesir __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    tell your brother that he needs to talk to his gf, or you will. if you consider your relationship with your bro's gf important, then you've gotta act on it.

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    HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    eternalbl wrote: »
    I made a post about how its not your concern, but that really won't help you much. You obviously think what he's doing is very wrong, but what I don't understand is why do you think his GF needs to know he's doing this and what makes it your job to tell her?

    How can something both be wrong and not worth stopping?

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    Manning'sEquationManning'sEquation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    off topic comment...

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    eternalbleternalbl Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    eternalbl wrote: »
    I made a post about how its not your concern, but that really won't help you much. You obviously think what he's doing is very wrong, but what I don't understand is why do you think his GF needs to know he's doing this and what makes it your job to tell her?

    How can something both be wrong and not worth stopping?

    How about some old cliches. Not everything is black and white. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Do unto others. All that stuff.

    To elaborate, what happened between his brother and his brother's ex could be the biggest mistake of his brothers life, so to tell his GF that he's cheating is just gonna cause his brother huge problems. I think thats fairly irresponsible to do. So he tells the GF and ends up ruining something that his brother said was the real deal, he loves her. Thats pretty bad too. So unless he'd want someone watching his every movement and telling on him anytime he did something they felt was wrong he should just let his brother live his life. But I'm also curious as to just why he feels he has a responsibility to do anything about this anyways. Noone's asking him for help here. Everyones happy, why ruin that?

    All that, and who wants to live in a world of complete order? It'd be boring. So let people make mistakes. They'll all take their experiences differently and grow for it. Not everyone has to share the same sense of morality. Actually this last line of thinking is why I changed it to just ask why he thought she needed to know and why he thinks its his responsibility to tell her.

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    HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    eternalbl wrote: »
    eternalbl wrote: »
    I made a post about how its not your concern, but that really won't help you much. You obviously think what he's doing is very wrong, but what I don't understand is why do you think his GF needs to know he's doing this and what makes it your job to tell her?

    How can something both be wrong and not worth stopping?

    How about some old cliches. Not everything is black and white. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Do unto others. All that stuff.

    To elaborate, what happened between his brother and his brother's ex could be the biggest mistake of his brothers life, so to tell his GF that he's cheating is just gonna cause his brother huge problems. I think thats fairly irresponsible to do. So he tells the GF and ends up ruining something that his brother said was the real deal, he loves her. Thats pretty bad too. So unless he'd want someone watching his every movement and telling on him anytime he did something they felt was wrong he should just let his brother live his life. But I'm also curious as to just why he feels he has a responsibility to do anything about this anyways. Noone's asking him for help here. Everyones happy, why ruin that?

    All that, and who wants to live in a world of complete order? It'd be boring. So let people make mistakes. They'll all take their experiences differently and grow for it. Not everyone has to share the same sense of morality.

    And at what point, through any of this, do you consider the girlfriend? Being cheated on, not knowing about it, and having everyone know about it but you is worse than anything the boyfriend may suffer.

    Furthermore, the boyfriend himself will never learn from his experience if all he experiences is people willing to accommodate him as he takes his girlfriend for granted. He isn't treating it as a mistake, and he won't unless he gets caught. Furthermore, he will get caught. The only question is whether it happens now, or when the pair is further entrenched in the relationship.

    All in all, you're asking him to sympathize with someone who isn't even the victim in this matter.

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    eternalbleternalbl Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    eternalbl wrote: »
    eternalbl wrote: »
    I made a post about how its not your concern, but that really won't help you much. You obviously think what he's doing is very wrong, but what I don't understand is why do you think his GF needs to know he's doing this and what makes it your job to tell her?

    How can something both be wrong and not worth stopping?

    How about some old cliches. Not everything is black and white. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Do unto others. All that stuff.

    To elaborate, what happened between his brother and his brother's ex could be the biggest mistake of his brothers life, so to tell his GF that he's cheating is just gonna cause his brother huge problems. I think thats fairly irresponsible to do. So he tells the GF and ends up ruining something that his brother said was the real deal, he loves her. Thats pretty bad too. So unless he'd want someone watching his every movement and telling on him anytime he did something they felt was wrong he should just let his brother live his life. But I'm also curious as to just why he feels he has a responsibility to do anything about this anyways. Noone's asking him for help here. Everyones happy, why ruin that?

    All that, and who wants to live in a world of complete order? It'd be boring. So let people make mistakes. They'll all take their experiences differently and grow for it. Not everyone has to share the same sense of morality.

    And at what point, through any of this, do you consider the girlfriend? Being cheated on, not knowing about it, and having everyone know about it but you is worse than anything the boyfriend may suffer.

    Furthermore, the boyfriend himself will never learn from his experience if all he experiences is people willing to accommodate him as he takes his girlfriend for granted. He isn't treating it as a mistake, and he won't unless he gets caught. Furthermore, he will get caught. The only question is whether it happens now, or when the pair is further entrenched in the relationship.

    All in all, you're asking him to sympathize with someone who isn't even the victim in this matter.

    First of all, the girlfriend, She'll be ok, its not the first time a guy's kissed a girl when he shouldn't have. It even happens the other way around. She won't feel good about it, but its no death sentence either. She'll see the boyfriend as a jerk and move on.

    Secondly, and the OP could probably make a determination on this, but unless he has a history of cheating, there's no reason to believe that this isn't already weighing on his conscience. Sometimes the worst thing that can happen is not getting caught, if you catch my drift.

    Edit: But really, Its not that I think the girlfriend deserves little consideration, I think the whole situation deserves little consideration on the part of the OP.

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    HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    eternalbl wrote: »
    First of all, the girlfriend, She'll be ok, its not the first time a guy's kissed a girl when he shouldn't have. It even happens the other way around. She won't feel good about it, but its no death sentence either. She'll see the boyfriend as a jerk and move on.

    Secondly, and the OP could probably make a determination on this, but unless he has a history of cheating, there's no reason to believe that this isn't already weighing on his conscience. Sometimes the worst thing that can happen is not getting caught, if you catch my drift.

    He was getting his dick fondled in public. That alone is a step beyond kissing, to say nothing of what has happened in private.

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    eternalbleternalbl Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    eternalbl wrote: »
    First of all, the girlfriend, She'll be ok, its not the first time a guy's kissed a girl when he shouldn't have. It even happens the other way around. She won't feel good about it, but its no death sentence either. She'll see the boyfriend as a jerk and move on.

    Secondly, and the OP could probably make a determination on this, but unless he has a history of cheating, there's no reason to believe that this isn't already weighing on his conscience. Sometimes the worst thing that can happen is not getting caught, if you catch my drift.

    He was getting his dick fondled in public. That alone is a step beyond kissing, to say nothing of what has happened in private.

    Frankly, I think thats exaggerated. Either that or his brother's ex has very poor taste. Either way, I don't care if they were having sex in front of an open window, its not his job to tell her and its just putting himself into a situation he really doesn't belong in.

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    HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    eternalbl wrote: »

    Frankly, I think thats exaggerated. Either that or his brother's ex has very poor taste. Either way, I don't care if they were having sex in front of an open window, its not his job to tell her and its just putting himself into a situation he really doesn't belong in.

    Of course, and that's why the boyfriend or someone else should be the one to reveal what has happened. Failing that, though, I'd say that committing a faux pas is ultimately preferable to letting a woman be deceived by someone who, frankly, respects her half as much for her as he seems to. She's the one being hurt, and therefore her interests, not the interests of the OP or anyone else, should be at the forefront.

    And yeah, if you ask a friend why they didn't tell you your boyfriend was cheating and all he has to say is that it wasn't his business, that isn't acceptable.

    I can't believe someone who just said that we don't all have to have the same sense of morality is, at the same time, pushing his own ideas of minding your own business (even in matters involving friends and relatives). Blatant infidelity is acceptable and not even worth divulging, but apparently letting someone know the person they're dating and loving isn't all he seems to be is out of bounds.

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    eternalbleternalbl Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I can't believe someone who just said that we don't all have to have the same sense of morality is, at the same time, pushing his own ideas of minding your own business (even in matters involving friends and relatives). Blatant infidelity is acceptable and not even worth divulging, but apparently letting someone know the person they're dating and loving isn't all he seems to be is out of bounds.

    Well thats actually why I trimmed my first post to basically 'why do you think its your responsibility to tell her and why do you want her to know so bad'. Like I said, telling him that I think its none of his concern is of no help to him at all.

    Then you asked me how something could be wrong and not worth doing something about. So I explained my rationale. I'm not forcing anyone, just responding.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Why would an arbitrary connection like blood "obviously" take precedence over friends?

    The fact that you share some genes should mean fuck-all. If you're interested in maintaining a relationship with him, that's important of course, but this whole "We popped out of the same cooch, so you have obligations, man!" thing is crap.

    I don't know man..... I mean it's obviously a matter of opinion, so it's not like one side can be right or wrong here, but I would do anything to protect my sisters, or family...more so than I would to protect john doe walking down the street... I'd like to think that it works the other way to in the sense that I would have their back regardless (with VERY few exceptions) more so than john doe.

    Once again, that's all opinion, and you're right, it shouldn't be a deciding factor in the advice, so I'll take back what I said about him not talking because it's his brother. I keep what I said about how his brother should get a few open palm slaps across the face because he's screwing a girl over though, and hopefully that will make him realize he needs to be honest with her.

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    DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Why would an arbitrary connection like blood "obviously" take precedence over friends?

    And friendship is not an arbitrary connection?

    OP already lost control of the info by telling the friend (who knows what friends motive might be in sharing info with the GF). Since the cat's out of the bag it's damage control. Tell your brother you know what's up, and that you told his friend (who's probably gonna tell his GF), and that you're gonna tell his GF and he has fair warning. Suffer the consequences with your family as you may, if you wanted to avoid that you shouldn't have told the friend (that seriously muddled the whole issue).

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Djeet wrote: »
    Why would an arbitrary connection like blood "obviously" take precedence over friends?

    And friendship is not an arbitrary connection?

    OP already lost control of the info by telling the friend (who knows what friends motive might be in sharing info with the GF). Since the cat's out of the bag it's damage control. Tell your brother you know what's up, and that you told his friend (who's probably gonna tell his GF), and that you're gonna tell his GF and he has fair warning. Suffer the consequences with your family as you may, if you wanted to avoid that you shouldn't have told the friend (that seriously muddled the whole issue).

    that I will definately agree with.

    amateurhour on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Djeet wrote: »
    Why would an arbitrary connection like blood "obviously" take precedence over friends?

    And friendship is not an arbitrary connection?

    Not really. I'm sure there are people you meet and then opt not to really hang out with. You only make friends with some people, presumably only people that you want to be friends with. And there's further that I could go but it starts getting messy out there and I've already gone far enough to demonstrate "no, not necessarily and hopefully not an arbitrary connection, because if it is I'd say you might have some problems, what with all the making friends with people you don't want to make friends with and shit".

    ViolentChemistry on
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    DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    just because you're an arbiter as opposed to being the subject of an arbitrary set of circumstances, does not make the result any less arbitrary. unless you're God. even then, the atheists might need a little convincing.

    Djeet on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Djeet wrote: »
    just because you're an arbiter as opposed to being the subject of an arbitrary set of circumstances, does not make the result any less arbitrary. unless you're God. even then, the atheists might need a little convincing.

    That's adorable, but "everything is arbitrary anyway" logically leads to "you shouldn't draw any distinctions between people at all, family, friend, stranger, assailant or otherwise" which is great if you're a monk, but most people aren't.

    ViolentChemistry on
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