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Soul Calibur 2 - is Xianghua balanced?

LoneIgadzraLoneIgadzra Registered User regular
edited November 2007 in Games and Technology
When I first started playing the game, I immediately latched onto Xianghua as the character I had the easiest time controlling. So I learned her, and got pretty damn good with her, at least in my circle of friends.

However, lately the people I play with regularly have been trying to claim that she is "cheap" and "overpowered", thus robbing me of the satisfaction I feel in victory and making me feel guilty about playing her in tournaments. I personally rarely encounter anyone else who plays her, including my friends (who have their own sets of favorites which don't include Xianghua).

Now I know PA has a good community ethos about debunking bullshit, so I turn to you with this question: Are my friends right?

LoneIgadzra on
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Posts

  • jwm2jwm2 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Who cares what anyone else thinks. If they think shes that much better then they should use her as well.

    jwm2 on
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  • j0hnz3rj0hnz3r Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Yes, she is very, very much unbalanced in SC2. Lots and lots of moves that are easy to do, incredibly effective and easy to whore.

    j0hnz3r on
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  • Vert1Vert1 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    However, lately the people I play with regularly have been trying to claim that she is "cheap" and "overpowered", thus robbing me of the satisfaction I feel in victory and making me feel guilty about playing her in tournaments.

    I think every fighting game I've played with friends goes like this.

    Vert1 on
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    Sleep wrote: »
    Vert1 wrote: »
    I'd like to ask everyone here one question. What is a game?

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  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    When I first started playing the game, I immediately latched onto Xianghua as the character I had the easiest time controlling. So I learned her, and got pretty damn good with her, at least in my circle of friends.

    However, lately the people I play with regularly have been trying to claim that she is "cheap" and "overpowered", thus robbing me of the satisfaction I feel in victory and making me feel guilty about playing her in tournaments. I personally rarely encounter anyone else who plays her.

    Now I know PA has a good community ethos about debunking bullshit, so I turn to you with this question: Are my friends right?

    She isn't completely bullshit, but she is very top tier. She has her 2_8B which can instantly catch people who make mistakes. There are also players out there who use three of her best moves in a very controlled situation to destroy their opponents.

    I've seen tournaments where a player will switch to his main and play as X. After a round of getting destroyed, the other player will abandon his main for X as well.

    She's a very good character, but your friends shouldn't bitch. If they think they can do a better job, they should play as her and try to take you down. However, I do encourage you to play as other characters because it can be pretty annoying when someone chooses the same top tier character over and over again. Show the other characters on the roster some love, because you need to be very creative in order to win with some of them.

    SkyGheNe on
  • DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2007
    when I played SC2, I played Talim exclusively. My friends said she was overpowered. But I think that was more of me learning/getting good at one character, while they all jumped around to different ones.

    Unknown User on
  • ArikadoArikado Southern CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    She's like the Sub-Zero of SC2.

    Can she be cheap? Yes. But so can a few other characters.

    I had the same issue with Talim just because I would ring them out all the time with her spin moves.

    Arikado on
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  • LoneIgadzraLoneIgadzra Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    NB: Playing other characters isn't the issue here. I get all over the roster while still playing her more than enough, and have a few other favorites with move lists that I know well. I just wanted to know what PA (which presumably has many players who are far better than me) thought about her.

    LoneIgadzra on
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Arikado wrote: »
    She's like the Sub-Zero of SC2.

    Can she be cheap? Yes. But so can a few other characters.

    I had the same issue with Talim just because I would ring them out all the time with her spin moves.

    Yes, but X is on a whole different level from the other characters. Many of her moves are stupidly safe and if a player knows what they are doing, shit like 3B, 2_8B, AA, 2K and a few others can be whored to such a level of efficiency that puts other characters in a very disadvantageous spot. No one else is "globally" safer. By global, I mean in regards to the categorical moves (horizontal, verticle, low, mid, high).

    Very easy to use and great damage.

    *edit*

    Here are two very good players from the Crooked Jesters team from NJ. X and Talim - as you can see - the talim player really needs to have their mind game and technical skills down where as the X player is technically simple, but effective.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ljCvTQnGRs

    SkyGheNe on
  • MechMantisMechMantis Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Play someone with long reach: I clean the floor with her whilst playing Nightmare. Just don't let her get in close, and MAKE SURE YOU BLOCK WHEN YOU AREN'T ATTACKING. If she can't get in close, she can't throw you. If she's trying to come around behind you, use a good clean horizontal slice to push her back, so she can't get close AND behind you. If you're sure you've got a combo going, then start using verticals.


    If playing on the Gamecube version, Link also does well against her. Mirror Shield is best for the job, but a plain ol' beatdown with the Master Sword will do the trick as well. Talim also works kinda well: the ungodly number of hits she can lay down will LEVEL Xianghua if the player doesn't block soon enough.


    So, basically, no, your friends aren't right. Some characters have a hard time dealing with Xianghua. Others have a hard time losing against her. Player skill will change the equation, but longer reach characters have an easier time with her.

    MechMantis on
  • LoneIgadzraLoneIgadzra Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    shit like 3B, 2_8B, AA, 2K

    Got a quick reference chart on the nomenclature? (I'm guessing those are clock directions?)

    LoneIgadzra on
  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Xianghua isn't cheap at all.
    Just kidding.

    Reynolds on
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  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    shit like 3B, 2_8B, AA, 2K

    Got a quick reference chart on the nomenclature? (I'm guessing those are clock directions?)

    Here's a run down...

    Think about the number pad on your keyboard...

    789
    456
    123

    Then look at your ps2 controller. Think of the numbers replacing various directions on the pad. So in this case, 3 is a simple way of saying diagonal down forward. To perform Ken's hadouken, it would be 236B.

    The letters represent the type of moves.

    A = square (Horizontal)
    B = Triangle (vertical)
    K = Circle (kick)

    Tournament players use this language to just simplify the moves.

    Then you have 2_8. What that represents are moves where you are sidestepping. So as you are side stepping up, press B and you get X's reversal launcher. You can also use the down sidestep. Sometimes you see 22_88B which means double tap and results in different moves.

    If you see 3 it means to hit and hold the B for a delay or extended property.

    Also - for a really neat video - this is one of the semi finalists in the crooked jester tournament. Their maxi player is really amazing, but the reason why some of these fringe characters do so well is because not many people play as them and therefore others are not as prepared for the various mind games that might be exploited.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVu3sbks1bo

    SkyGheNe on
  • B:LB:L I've done worse. Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Soul Calibur 2 is balanced. You can win effectively with any character, even in tournaments.

    Xianghua IS NOT broken. She is, however, very "cheap" and considered top tier.

    But then again, the SC2 tiers are basically...

    Top: Xianghua
    Under that: Everyone else.


    She's fast and for the most part safe. The thing that makes her "cheap" though is that she's so incredibly easy to abuse, because her strongest moves are her basic moves.

    But she's balanced out by her lack of push. Many of those moves give her "disadvantage", meaning the defender has the initiative after blocking her attacks.

    With Mitsurugi, I can block her 3B lifting launcher and hit a guaranteed A,A into more mixups. If I block her low 3A sword sweep, I can do FC 1B,B and can basically combo her for a third of her lifebar.


    Strategies may vary per character, but Xianghua has trouble locking people down. She HAS to rely on her A,A to interrupt (which is strong because on counterhit it combo's as A,A,B), but if you can predict accordingly, you can punish her exactly for that.


    You can pretty much see what I'm talking about in this vid:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTf-iAol16E

    Best SC2 Xianghua in the world (Kayane) vs. One of the best USA players

    B:L on
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  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    B:L wrote: »
    Soul Calibur 2 is balanced. You can win effectively with any character, even in tournaments.

    Xianghua IS NOT broken. She is, however, very "cheap" and considered top tier.

    But then again, the SC2 tiers are basically...

    Top: Xianghua
    Under that: Everyone else.


    She's fast and for the most part safe. The thing that makes her "cheap" though is that she's so incredibly easy to abuse, because her strongest moves are her basic moves.

    But she's balanced out by her lack of push. Many of those moves give her "disadvantage", meaning the defender has the initiative after blocking her attacks.

    With Mitsurugi, I can block her 3B lifting launcher and hit a guaranteed A,A into more mixups. If I block her low 3A sword sweep, I can do FC 1B,B and can basically combo her for a third of her lifebar.


    Strategies may vary per character, but Xianghua has trouble locking people down. She HAS to rely on her A,A to interrupt (which is strong because on counterhit it combo's as A,A,B), but if you can predict accordingly, you can punish her exactly for that.


    You can pretty much see what I'm talking about in this vid:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTf-iAol16E

    Best SC2 Xianghua in the world (Kayane) vs. One of the best USA players

    I thought that if you kept proper distance with the 3B that his AA wouldn't make contact?

    SkyGheNe on
  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I'd been told by my roomies that she's top tier in SC2. But damned if anyone bothered to learn to play her better than whatever characters they had chosen.

    Henroid on
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Wow, I'm surprised Mick is rated as one of the best characters in the U.S. I didn't really hear about him much after SC3 came out, but I guess that scene was sort of dead before it started. Also, wasn't his main cassy?

    SkyGheNe on
  • B:LB:L I've done worse. Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SkyGheNe wrote: »
    I thought that if you kept proper distance with the 3B that his AA wouldn't make contact?
    Good luck doing that with me. My Mitsu is always in their face. :P

    But that's what advance guard is for. 8-)


    Edit: As for Mick, I'm referring to the SC2 scene. He and RTD went neck and neck in the finals of EVO2004.
    His main was Cassie, but I think he pioneered a lot of Sophie play.

    B:L on
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  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    lol from that same tournament, in the finals mick switches to X vs. Aris.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBBRamYxilw

    SkyGheNe on
  • Vert1Vert1 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Wow. That video rekindled my hatred of Voldo.

    Vert1 on
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    Sleep wrote: »
    Vert1 wrote: »
    I'd like to ask everyone here one question. What is a game?

    A lower form of sex.
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I haven't seen the vid, but I imagine it would rekindle my Love of Voldo.

    My best friend and current roommate played an ungodly amount of SC2 on the Gamecube. I played against him a lot too. Usually an hour or so after supper almost every day my senior year. We just did random teams of 4, with vetos only allowed on Raphael and Maxi, cause neither of us enjoyed playing as them, much less against them. Xianghua was one of the more annoying ones, along with Yunsung, but I've seen so much devastation wrought upon me by all the characters, that I don't feel any one of them is overwhelmingly cheap.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    ah, the age old cheap argument in fighting games.

    you know, the designers are pretty good about making sure there's ways to counter just about everyone in a fighting game (except Necrid)

    methinks if your friends are getting their asses whomped by Xianghua, they need to figure out the best strategy to defeat her. This, in turn, will encourage you to use other characters. And is how fighting games have worked since the dawn of man.

    Kuribo's Shoe on
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  • ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get along Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Everyone bitches that x character is cheap when they lose. I got really good using Raphael and people always complained constantly.

    Shogun on
  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    And is how fighting games are supposed to have worked since the dawn of man.
    Not every game works out that way. However, I don't think the OP would be asking us this if he were playing at a sufficiently high level to abuse Xianghua anyway.

    She really is overpowered as far as sheer speed and safe recoveries are concerned. On the other hand, she's not so overpowered that I consistently lose to people who use her.

    tl;dr: Xianghua really is overpowered, but not by enough to make a difference to the OP's friends.

    templewulf on
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  • FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    SC2 is pretty balanced from what I played of it.

    It was like when people would complain that I kept using Link's arm-twist throw to ring them out. I told them to stop turtling next to places where I could set them up for it.

    Amongst the people I know, our favorite way to play SC2 is that you choose a character, if you lose to have to change, if you win you get to keep it. switch out people and keeps it fresh and interesting.

    FyreWulff on
  • B:LB:L I've done worse. Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    And is how fighting games have worked since the dawn of man.
    It seems when it comes to fighting games, most casual players just forget all they learned from their years of gaming experience about pattern recognization and strategy, and just prefer to go "abloo bloo bloo".

    B:L on
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  • Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak is it because you were insulted when I insulted your hair?Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    B:L wrote: »
    Soul Calibur 2 is balanced. You can win effectively with any character, even in tournaments.

    Xianghua IS NOT broken. She is, however, very "cheap" and considered top tier.

    But then again, the SC2 tiers are basically...

    Top: Xianghua
    Under that: Everyone else.

    Isn't that the very definition of being broken?

    Alfred J. Kwak on
  • LoneIgadzraLoneIgadzra Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    templewulf wrote: »
    And is how fighting games are supposed to have worked since the dawn of man.
    Not every game works out that way. However, I don't think the OP would be asking us this if he were playing at a sufficiently high level to abuse Xianghua anyway.

    She really is overpowered as far as sheer speed and safe recoveries are concerned. On the other hand, she's not so overpowered that I consistently lose to people who use her.

    tl;dr: Xianghua really is overpowered, but not by enough to make a difference to the OP's friends.

    To be fair, even if my actual reflexes and understanding of the finer nuances of the game are not at tournament level, I am still intimately familiar with 75% of the Xianghua combo strategies I'm seeing in the videos people are linking. Though lately I've played so much of the game that I fall into a rut of slow reactions and predictability and un-creativity with all the characters now, "X" included, and in fact lose all the time when I play as her.

    Hell, I developed abusing her into a fine enough art to get through weapon master, which I seem to recall being mostly a Raphael 6BB situation for a lot of people.

    LoneIgadzra on
  • Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak is it because you were insulted when I insulted your hair?Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Vert1 wrote: »
    Wow. That video rekindled my hatred of Voldo.

    You shut your dirty mouth. Everyone knows Voldo is the best fighter in the game. All the cool kids are playing Voldo.

    Alfred J. Kwak on
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    You shut your dirty mouth. Everyone knows Voldo is the best pedophile in the game. All the cool Nambla members are playing Voldo.

    Fixed.
    Shogun wrote: »
    Everyone bitches that x character is cheap when they lose. I got really good using Raphael and people always complained constantly.

    Raphael can be hard to read, but to be honest, it's mostly because no one really uses him. I loved using him... his different stances really mixed things up good, and confused the hell out of opponents.

    Shadowfire on
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  • Bendery It Like BeckhamBendery It Like Beckham Hopeless Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    How about some Taki love?

    My friend picked up X for a little while... he ended up getting bored with her because the only moves that worked well were the same 2 or 3 over and over and that made him predictable. So he started playing Ivy, and Taki vs Ivy = epic

    Bendery It Like Beckham on
  • B:LB:L I've done worse. Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    B:L wrote: »
    Soul Calibur 2 is balanced. You can win effectively with any character, even in tournaments.

    Xianghua IS NOT broken. She is, however, very "cheap" and considered top tier.

    But then again, the SC2 tiers are basically...

    Top: Xianghua
    Under that: Everyone else.

    Isn't that the very definition of being broken?
    Nope.

    It's because the tiers are so close they basically disappear. She's only a small step ahead.


    Broken is playing boss Jinpachi in Tekken 5 or boss Gill in SFII:3rd Strike.

    B:L on
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  • B:LB:L I've done worse. Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    You shut your dirty mouth. Everyone knows Voldo is the best pedophile in the game. All the cool Nambla members are playing Voldo.

    Fixed.
    You shut your filthy mouth.

    Raphael wins best pedophile hands down. He's got AMY.

    B:L on
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  • Bendery It Like BeckhamBendery It Like Beckham Hopeless Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Also, Nina is tekken 5 was pretty broken.

    Bendery It Like Beckham on
  • Drunk_caterpillarDrunk_caterpillar Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Raphael for the win.

    Drunk_caterpillar on
  • ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get along Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Seriously get the triple tap to the face and finish it with a roundhouse kick.


    Controllers flyin erry'where.

    Shogun on
  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    templewulf wrote: »
    And is how fighting games are supposed to have worked since the dawn of man.
    Not every game works out that way. However, I don't think the OP would be asking us this if he were playing at a sufficiently high level to abuse Xianghua anyway.

    She really is overpowered as far as sheer speed and safe recoveries are concerned. On the other hand, she's not so overpowered that I consistently lose to people who use her.

    tl;dr: Xianghua really is overpowered, but not by enough to make a difference to the OP's friends.

    To be fair,
    Oh, don't get me wrong; I'm not saying you're bad. I don't think I'm tournament level either. I'm just saying that if you're not memorizing frame data, then you're not abusing Xianghua enough to be complained about.

    templewulf on
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  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    God damn do I suck at this game. Actually, let me revise that: God damn do I suck at every fighting game ever made. Seriously, how do people get past the "everyone is raping me because terms like 'pattern recognition' and specific combo series mean nothing to me and I can't do more than pound 'block' or use basic combos" stage without throwing a controller into the wall because anyone else in the world is violating your ass while you try to learn (including the fucking CPU)?

    JihadJesus on
  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Shizzamn, Sophitia is scary in that video. She anticipates like every move, blocks and counters mercilessly.

    Chen on
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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    B:L wrote: »
    Soul Calibur 2 is balanced. You can win effectively with any character, even in tournaments.

    Xianghua IS NOT broken. She is, however, very "cheap" and considered top tier.

    But then again, the SC2 tiers are basically...

    Top: Xianghua
    Under that: Everyone else.

    Isn't that the very definition of being broken?

    Not if you check dictionary.com.

    Drez on
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  • KimFidlerKimFidler Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    There is always tiers in every fighting game. Take a look at Marvel vs Capcom 2. Out of the 56 (or whatever) characters there is, maybe 10 of them are worth using.

    PS: X is top tier.

    KimFidler on
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