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bewilderness hey

dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
edited November 2007 in Artist's Corner
no! http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/105656
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/87248

My last one appeared defective by design so fuck it.

Here's something I started today. Listen to this through headphones preferably, unless you have a mac or a bitchin sound card.

- alyosha

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    NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The add-ins to the main beat start kind of late for my taste, and a lot of the sound-effects seem incredibly out of place and really harsh against the "smoother", low beats you have in the background.

    NightDragon on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think I'll either tone down the frequency on the bass or remove it all together.

    On the redundancy, it's intentional. It's supposed to start to bore you and make the change that happens more exciting then it actually is. Thanks for the opinion.

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    NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    On the redundancy, it's intentional. It's supposed to start to bore you and make the change that happens more exciting then it actually is. Thanks for the opinion.

    Well, I would personally argue that although I can understand the redundancy for this genre, I don't really think you should intentionally try to bore your listeners to make a change "more exciting". I would imagine it would work better if you brought in the change a few beats earlier. That way, their interest is still held, up to the point of introducing the additional beats.

    NightDragon on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I'm starting to agree with you on that. I'll set the controllers to modulate to after two bars.

    I've noticed the view\post ratio on my music threads are unbalanced. I get the impression people dont like to critisize unproffesional music. Especially music that's abstract and instrumental. This is an art that you have to sit down and listen to, you can't glance at it and start ripping on the artist. That's what I think.

    In any case I wouldn't mind discussing compositional theory in this thread, or music theory in general, although I know close to nothing about either.

    dangerdoomdanger on
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    GrifterGrifter BermudaModerator mod
    edited November 2007
    I find pretty much all of your music pretty dull because there's no melody to follow. You just pick random noises and hope for the best. There's no plan of attack or thought process behind this judging by listening to it. I'm more of a fan of stuff by people like digweed and Sasha. Check out Airdrawndagger by Sasha sometime. Now, that is a masterpiece of electronic music.

    Grifter on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Ah, yes. I've had that complaint before. I dont know how to compose a melody :[

    What do you mean by pretty much all of my music?

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    GrifterGrifter BermudaModerator mod
    edited November 2007
    What I meant was that every once in a while you come up with a nice bit in a track. However, this is usually ruined very shortly by some random noise that makes no sense.

    Grifter on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Hahaha. I see. Well nothing lasts forever. Although you can help me out and tell me what you like, and what you think should last a bit longer.

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    GrifterGrifter BermudaModerator mod
    edited November 2007
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't have any traditional musical training.

    Grifter on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Not extensivly no but what I do know about music theory has improved my work so much.

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Well actually, yes, but only for about two years.

    So i listened to this sasha guy and he sounds a bit like Cim. You might like Cim. Some laid back electronic grooves.

    As for melodies make electronic music exciting : http://www.myspace.com/mouseonmars

    I dont think so. Frankly, I dont think your opinion is valid, Grifter, sir. You judge me and all my music before listening to it.

    dangerdoomdanger on
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    NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Well...his opinion is valid, and also, I agree with him. I was going to mention that in my original reply, too. Your noises are really random and seem superfluous. Whatever groove your listener may have fallen into is completely thrown out the window each time you throw in one of those random noises.

    NightDragon on
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    GrifterGrifter BermudaModerator mod
    edited November 2007
    Ok, let's compare my 10+ years of formal musical training combine with my five years of self trained turntable DJing with your two years of whatever kind of learning experience that you have. Who do you think has a more valid opinion given these two scenarios?

    Grifter on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Your opinion is valid because of what you say, not what you've done. That said, when you say pretty much all my music is dull because they dont have melodies that implies you've listened to pretty much all my music. I think your opinion is valid with what you've actually heard of my music. Which is... what songs?

    By the end of Bewilderness it's just like fuck all. So I agree, the opinion is valid. With Bewilderness. Because it's incomplete and i'm a lazy bastard.

    I assume Grifter's opinion applies to the last two links i sent (besides the myspace). Is that right?

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Okay as far as I can tell this doesn't have a melody: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVZaAmi-D1Y

    And the art suffers because of it :[

    dangerdoomdanger on
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    NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I'm so confused and also not interested.

    NotASenator on
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    GrifterGrifter BermudaModerator mod
    edited November 2007
    Fair enough. my opinion applies to the music that you've posted in this thread saying that you've created it. You lack structure or the ability to form complete ideas in your music. Some sort of understanding on how to properly compose a piece would help you greatly as it's fairly clear that you have little knowledge in this area and need to continue studying not just some drum&bass/jungle musicians but music/musicians in general. I'm not going to discuss the other music that you've posted because it doesn't really have any context to what your own music accomplishes, which isn't much. In any case, you seem hung up on arguing with me rather than listening to me so I really don't have anything else to say to you.

    Grifter on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The other musicians I've posted (aphex twin, mouse on mars) was in reference to melody in music. You say my music suffers because I have no melody. Their pieces dont have melodies and I think that works for them.

    Also I dont get how my music sucks because they dont incorporate melodies. My music might suck, and it might not incorporate melodies, but I dont think one is because of the other.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Chronic Yellow Drip has a few melodies.

    What musicians are you suggesting I uh study?

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Eh... Well I thought over your post carefully Grifter and it has some truth in it, but I dont see how you could possibly know. On my plan of attack, I usually improvise as I go. It's how I work, I experiment. This is not the case with Scrotum Totem or Bewilderness. I thought about Bewilderness a bit and made it repeat in fourths, as I'm sure you're aware. G\C\G\C Uuuh. Scrotum Totem is very simple, the bass goes between E and G.

    Yellow is pretty much improvised. As for the relavence of the aphex twin sound. I'm using mock synthesizers, where I can modulate the frequency of drums through filters, if I wish. So I'm not sure melody is important outside of the 12 tone system. I post aphex twin because I am using exactly the tools he used. I'm in a way trying to achieve what he has.

    As for Bewilderness, that seems retarded inherently by design, so let's put that aside for a bit until I figure out a melody for it.

    Mmm.
    Yeah.

    The random noises bit. That's interesting. I beseech you guys to talk more specifically. Are we talking my whole library of hundreds of songs or Scrotum Totem or what? I'll make sure to incorporate random noises more more harmoniously with what's going on next time.

    Grifter, are you suggesting I try mimicking other artists? Also your training is quite impressive. Would you mind showing me some of your work, as an example of how not to fuck things up?

    Here's a bit : http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/74875

    dangerdoomdanger on
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    Chop LogicChop Logic Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think maybe what Grifter is getting at is that people that are good at making electronic music aren't just good at making electronic music, they're also just good at making music in general. They probobly know lots of theory and have composed non-electronic pieces as well.

    If you're looking to learn the "rules" of composition (so you can break them), look into learning some counter-point, the rules of voice leading, and the functions of different chord progressions (some cadences also). These are the basis of all music. Though they may seem like they have no relvence to you, you need to know the basics before you can branch out and do crazy stuff.

    It's just like msot of the other threads in the AC. If you want to be able to draw crazy stylized figures, you need to learn basic anatomy. Picasso could paint great realistic portraits; the guys from Dillenger Escape Plan all studied at Berklee.

    Good luck. Check out some M83.

    Chop Logic on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    M83?

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Well. I dont think Aphex Twin has been formally educated in music. He's an expert with his instruments, that is modern electronics, but his music doesn't smell like it has music cultured with music theory. In relativity to other electronic artists his choice of notes are very... uh... nosebleed. Yeah. No.

    You bring to my mind Dali. I went to his museum the other day, that is 5 years ago, and everything in it gave me a headache. Except for a couple sketches of some docks. The man drew mad nice sketches. Of course if he posted them here, you guys (and gals) would tear it apart... what I'm trying to say is he was capable of doing the simple literary art.

    Nnnh. Humanoid. That's cool. I'll take your advice.

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    GrifterGrifter BermudaModerator mod
    edited November 2007
    I don't think Aphex twin was formally trained per se but he has been learning about music since a very young age. Learned how to play the piano before he learned how to produce electronic music.

    Also, Dali was a bloody fantastic artist. And he was traditionally trained.

    I think you're trying to justify your rather uninspired miscreations with people who either have a great deal more knowledge than you do because they have spent a great deal more time studying their craft and taking the advice of their peers and their betters.

    Grifter on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    You're being assumptious again. By the way, I dont only listen to jungle. I would let you know my influences, and then my music might make a little more sense to you, but I dont think you give a shit about what I listen to and I think you haven't really listened to my music carefully, if at all. Eh... My music seems uninspired probably because you have no idea what I listen to.

    Compositionally I think Chronic Yellow Drip is A-Ok!

    dangerdoomdanger on
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    NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    You're being assumptious again. By the way, I dont only listen to jungle. I would let you know my influences, and then my music might make a little more sense to you, but I dont think you give a shit about what I listen to and I think you haven't really listened to my music carefully, if at all. Eh... My music seems uninspired probably because you have no idea what I listen to.

    Compositionally I think Chronic Yellow Drip is A-Ok!

    You're making a lot of excuses. Why don't you try taking some of the critiques you already have and make something new based off of your feedback?

    NightDragon on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Well I disagree with some of the critiques. I dont think I need a melody to make good art.

    Maybe you're right. First I'm going to look up what Chopped Logic was refering to. For now I'm going to let uh what I have linked to sit. I'm interested in your thoughts on my completed pieces. Hopefully you then can give me a more digested opinion.

    dangerdoomdanger on
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    NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    danger, the problem here is that you tend to come off very defensively to people making the critiques, and it sounds like from the start you're saying that nothing could possibly be wrong with your music, because of this that and the other thing.


    People here are making critiques because they don't like the music. I'm a fan of the style, but personally, I find your tracks unfocused and lacking flow. I have trouble bobbing my head to most of it, I can't imagine trying to dance to it.

    I took a look a your submissions on newgrounds, and the most recent one, 'drunk drum and bass' has a consistency that the other tracks I heard seem to lack.

    For example, although the beginning of 'chronic yellow drip' is somewhat solid, it just goes all to hell after the abrupt change in the middle. If you are going to do something like that, you have to build to some sort of breaking point, a crescendo or a build up of some kind, and then take us to someplace new, but congruent. Remember, the point is not to confuse the listener. If we're dancing to one of your beats and we have to stop to figure out what the new beat is, you've lost us.

    'Ska flight' really has the right idea and although it gets muddled towards the end, it's the start of a strong beat. I think you should work on that more.


    Have you considered remixing existing songs and adding your own beats? It might help to give you a sense of song structure that is somewhat lacking here.

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Thanks. I just thought some of the critiques were a bit uh judgemental and generalized. I also consider the fact that I might be an idiot.

    Ska flight's a real pain. It took me forever to get the first four bars at that level of okay and I really dont know where to go with it, as you can tell. Ska flight is was in response to this topic actually.

    I dont have technology to remix music. But I'll keep the thought and mimick some grooves. I've done it before and it didn't turn out so hot (I got this http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/105872 ). But if you think it'll help.

    I think i'll try mimicking this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFBu5Z-UovQ

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/105864

    Nnnh. I dont think that tune needs a melody.

    Also thank you Chopped L. Your references are helping me out.

    dangerdoomdanger on
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    Chop LogicChop Logic Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    No problem. I'll listen to the stuff when I get back. I'm about to leave again, but I just want to reiterate that knowing some basic chord progressions and the functions of different notes withing chords will help you immensley. I'll write more when I get back.

    Chop Logic on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I dont know if this has anything to do with voice leading But it's a whole book that I started reading. Either way I think i'll benefit from it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint

    That's all I got. That's what I'm going try to digest for now. Eh... M83?

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    You're being assumptious again. By the way, I dont only listen to jungle. I would let you know my influences, and then my music might make a little more sense to you, but I dont think you give a shit about what I listen to and I think you haven't really listened to my music carefully, if at all. Eh... My music seems uninspired probably because you have no idea what I listen to.

    Compositionally I think Chronic Yellow Drip is A-Ok!

    You're making a lot of excuses. Why don't you try taking some of the critiques you already have and make something new based off of your feedback?

    Well I've made something but you're not gonna like it :mrgreen:

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    dangerdoomdanger on
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    Chop LogicChop Logic Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Listening now:

    In square affair, it sounds like you have this one note in the melody that doesn't belong in the key, I would try putting that not into the key (for example, if your in C, and its an F#, make it an F or a G.) It might be that it doesnt belong with the chord or something, but its pretty dissonant. It's not terrible but it might sounds better if you change it. Up to you. This ones pretty good in terms of structure I guess. Keep in mind I dont listen to a ton of electronic music.

    Energy Blast - Not really feeling this one, kind feels random again. Sorry.

    Holy Rain - It's good but feels like its missing something.


    I think you should listen to a lot of electronic music and try and figure out what takes good electronic songs from 'good beat + randomness' to 'well constructed song'. The only electronic stuff I really listen to is The Postal Service, Daft Punk, M83 and some others. M83 seems the closest to what you're trying to do, I would check them out.

    Chop Logic on
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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I'm back you godless sodomites.

    Here's me with the bass.
    http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/106790
    Here's me with some modern electronics.
    http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/106797

    That's some hardy advice, chop. I tend to combine C minor penatonic with the major C somtimes because it sounds like shit no matter how you go about it (eeeh the blues scales, that is). I guess I should be experimenting strictly in scale for abit. I'll try to figure out what throws square affair off, mind you my ear is crap.
    It's probably the only one worth saving.

    Oh yeah and I'll check out M83. I would recomend you to check out Wagon Christ, maybe.

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    dangerdoomdangerdangerdoomdanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/107035
    I think I know why my beats are so awkward. For the past couple years I havent been using my own dexterity in my musical ideas. That is I've been using no medium at all just strait from my head to the sequencer. I also have no real conception of 16th notes in real time. I'll start using my bass to mediate more often and see if that does anything. It should help my sense of timing. Ayuh. But I figure uh... that's only one contribution to the problem.

    edit: changed the link

    dangerdoomdanger on
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