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Can beatings be productive?
stavesacre
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I have a 14/15 yr old brother-in-law, who is turning into something of a problem child. Let me give some background here, so you'll get a feel for this:
His father just died recently (little over a year ago) in a car accident. He was an alcoholic and was driving drunk.
He has been as long as I've known him (6+ years) been a typical gamer kid, loved video games and anime. Got a bit older and started with the greasy hair and dark cloths.
Now within the past few months he has gotten a girl friend, run away with her across state lines hitching the whole way, and apparently is a "cutter" and they both cut on each other.
Now, my first instinct here, is to beat some sense into this kid. He doesn't have a father figure around to do it, and I know that when I was a little shit growing up I wish I had someone to beat my ass till I knew what I was doing.
But, on the other hand, I've never cut on myself, and I have no idea what that might be about. And I dont mean to just go home and rough him up for no reason, I want to sit down and have a man to man. Which, depending on the way he takes it, could very well go to blows.
I guess what I am curious about is: Is this a terrible idea? I don't want to scar him for life or anything, I am just worried about the guy and what he is doing to his family.
His father just died recently (little over a year ago) in a car accident. He was an alcoholic and was driving drunk.
He has been as long as I've known him (6+ years) been a typical gamer kid, loved video games and anime. Got a bit older and started with the greasy hair and dark cloths.
Now within the past few months he has gotten a girl friend, run away with her across state lines hitching the whole way, and apparently is a "cutter" and they both cut on each other.
Now, my first instinct here, is to beat some sense into this kid. He doesn't have a father figure around to do it, and I know that when I was a little shit growing up I wish I had someone to beat my ass till I knew what I was doing.
But, on the other hand, I've never cut on myself, and I have no idea what that might be about. And I dont mean to just go home and rough him up for no reason, I want to sit down and have a man to man. Which, depending on the way he takes it, could very well go to blows.
I guess what I am curious about is: Is this a terrible idea? I don't want to scar him for life or anything, I am just worried about the guy and what he is doing to his family.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I do know though, that in my case, my dad punched me once and it actually made an impact. I mouthed off to my stepmother or something and got a nice punch in the mouth. I was like 19 at the time, so maybe I was just smart enough to figure out that I deserved it.
That being said, I am a fan of that kind of punishment for kids, as long it doesn't go anywhere near abuse and just stays a form of punishment.
Really, I don't think hitting him is going to do anything other than make him hate you. It sounds like the kid has had a bit of a rough time of it lately; I mean, puberty is rough enough on someone, without having to deal with your alcoholic dad killing himself in a drunk-driving accident. Is the kid seeing a psych (either psychiatrist or psychologist)? If not, he should be. If his family can't afford one, they can probably get one through his school; they should be talking to the people there, trying to work something out.
Aside from getting a psych, try just talking to him, maybe invite him along to do stuff (I don't know how close you live to him). He may very well try and provoke you into hitting him or something, but you shouldn't. Usually, a kid who's gone through something like that, especially one reacting like he is, is going to have some issues with connecting with father-figures, and trying to drive them away.
Seriously, you might want to try to take the kid working out. You get an endorphin rush from that, so he might find he enjoys it.
Like Thinatos, I suggest some professional counseling and generating support. Depending on the girlfriend's attitude, she also might be good leverage to keep him in line (as inviting them to do healthy activities together and treating her as part of the family rather than a troublemaker). It sounds like part of their problem is boredom (it's during boring time that stupid ideas begin).
if you're going to talk to him, it needs to be out of concern, not out of anger. Yeah, it's easy to judge being on the outside and seeing all the foolish crap he's doing... but you have no clue what's going on inside... and it sounds like a lot. He really sounds like he needs a shrink and some meds... and not necessarily in that order.
More of, "What are you thinking? Stop being stupid, your hurting your family." And by blows I mean, a punch in the arm.
Sorry, "beating some sense" took on a morbid tone here that shouldn't have been there. I was more trying to find out what this whole cutting business was about, and that was answered in three posts.
What he does need to hear is "I know you're going through a hard time right now and I want you to know that I'm absolutely here for you. What can we do as a family to help you get through this?"
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I totally disagree with this. If my father had ever hit me, especially at age 14 when the teenage rebellion starts I would have never talked to him again. I've been brought up to learn violence is not the answer so all it would have ever done for me is make me hate him. Maybe if you're brought up in a house where violence is used to solve problems it wouldn't have this effect on you.
I'm gonna completely disagree with this guy above me and agree with Urian. I was a fucked up kid until I got the shit beaten out of me one day. Some kids have an invincibility complex and think no one could fucking touch em. Once I realized I wasn't shit, I shaped up and tried to make myself better and worthy of not being hit. No one wants to be a person that deserves to get hit once they realize it.
And it worked. I'm a good man today.
No it won't. Have you ever been bullied? A bully doesn't always have to beat the shit out of you, hell most of the time that's not even the worst of what they do.
If a guy who has no history of aggression or bullying suddenly comes out and wrecks you when you are doing some stupid shit it will have an impact. It's the first time he's done such a thing, and you can't help but think about why he would be driven to do that, unless you are really really dumb or something.
If however he always beats the shit out of you, like Pavlov's dogs you will just learn to expect it all the time and it won't have much of an impact. That is when you can't use beating as punishment.
Violence isn't the answer, man. It's the question. The answer is yes.
Seriously, though, you're judging situations you may never have been in - and you're only denying your connection to violence by living with such an ethos in a society with mores enforced by state power. That's a D&D thread, though.
To the OP: There's a reason you don't walk up to an adult Doberman and slap it. You got to get them beatings in when its a small defenseless puppy.
Your sibling doesn't need beatings. He needs talked to. And not, "Roger, are you aware of what you're doing? How does that make you feel" talked too, by some douche counselor, or "STOP BEING SUCH A LITTLE TURD" talked too.
He needs really talked to, like an adult, to see what's going on in his head. You also need to fall on the grenade and be there to lead by example and do shit with him. He sounds like he's kind of fatherless, leaderless - there's a lot of kids like that , kids that could go either way but there's no one in their lives that can just show them how to act. Is there anyone to teach him how to drive on ice, or change an oil filter, or make a fist or shoot a gun or gut a fish or re-wire his LAN? Anyone to teach him that a flush beats a straight and you don't put your hand on the ground in your opponent's guard? Anyone to teach him when it is bad to swear vs when it is awesome to swear, or how much vermouth goes in a martini? Anyone to teach him how to tie a tie and when to wear one?
Or is he going to have to figure out what being a man is, practically and morally, at the exact same time society expects him to be busy turning into one?
And if the latter, if that's the case, and he senses that, why in the hell would he not be pissed off about it?
My grand ideas of manhood (wouldn't you all like to be my kid?) aside, you also need to look at his conduct and prioritize: Clothing and hair are not big deals. Ducking state lines is a big, big deal. Pick your battles and encourage him to find real, individual tastes - we're all douchenozzles of high order between 14 and 18 and he'll grow out of much of it.
I host a podcast about movies.
Nodody here is going to argue that violence is not a fact of life in the greater world but for me it has no place in a family situation.
If someone punches me, the first thing I'm thinking is whether I have the opportunity to punch back. The last thing I'm thinking is, "Hey, this guy seems reasonable, lets hear what he has to say."
I think you can get away with sitting him down and begin speaking to him as an adult and tell him that you think he's making a mistake and he should change his ways. Depending on how he takes it you can use physical force to emphasize your points. And on another level you might need to show him who is in control here.
Now with this method, you need the confidence of his immediate family that you are the person who can get him to shape up. Anyone involved with this who seems to be on his side could ruin and undermine anything you're trying to teach him. And the simple fact if anyone in the family thinks this is inappropriate, then you should just drop it.
Whichever way this talk goes, the next part is the hardest: you need to try and be with around this kid as much as possible. You say he's missing a father figure? Well, give him one. Do shit with him, take him out, give him a role model.
One 'talk,' no matter how violent or how wise, won't fix anything. You need to commit to help this guy.
I'd definately disagree about changing his direction. Beating some sense into him just isn't the right approach for this.
To the OP, and everyone saying the kid needs a beating: we're not talking about a spoiled suburbanite with a chip on his shoulder stealing beer from the supermarket and complaining about "the man" keeping him down. We're talking about a kid that had an alcoholic (possibly abusive, very likely emotionally distant) father that managed to kill his stupid ass when the kid was 13. This kid is fucked up, in a world of pain, and needs guidance and friendship.
I didn't say beating is a tool to direct a child. I am saying direction is a tool for helping a child. And this young man might not even be a child in that sense.
I wasn't really replying to that part of your post, so much as the part saying he's beyond giving direction.
I would suggest turning him onto some Johnny Cash. Some good deep music, art, just show him some of the more textured things in life. Show him that pain can lead to much more relevant creativity. Sort of give all the things he's been through meaning. And that the future can be manipulated with hope and participation. Help him to be patient with himself through his changes and development. And I wont post any more to this thread.
but that kind of plays on what I way saying - kind of play "if you like ____ then you'll really like ____" with him.
Try to get the kid to find some identity - give him ways to do that and he'll become less malleable and more adult on his own.
I host a podcast about movies.
It might help shine a bit more light on the situation. He might just feel a little isolated at home and is just trying to run away from it all.
He sounds like he needs a lot more positive reinforcement than negative. If you want to influence him, you'll need to invest in him emotionally. Be his friend first, and don't try to preach and push an agenda right away. After you have understanding and trust, then he will take your advice a lot more seriously.
stavesacre, you want to go talk some sense into your 15-year-old brother-in-law. I sympathize with that. But guess what? You're not the only one. In fact, he's surrounded by people who want to talk sense into him. How do I know this? Because he's 15 years old. When you're a teenager, all anybody ever does is talk at you, tell you what to do and how to do it.
Now, if you want to be one of the million voices pushing him in a direction that he doesn't want to go in; if that makes you feel better about yourself, then go for it. But don't expect any results. If you want to actually get through to him, ask him how he's doing. Let him know that you're worried about him and you're there for him if he wants to talk. Let him know that you won't judge him and then ask him if he's doing okay.
Chances are, he won't open up to you the first time, or the second time, or even the third or fourth times. But ask him how he's doing every chance you get and gently, occasionally remind him (without badgering him) that you're concerned about him and you're there for him to talk to and eventually he'll start to drop his defenses.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.