Anyways, I live in America, in an area with a very large Middle Eastern population that's doing very well for itself (and that seems to be the case in many other areas in this country), so I'm more than skeptical of the claim that Europe is having problems because their immigrants are impossible to integrate.
Also, why does France choose to give non French people citizenship? You can't be a citizen of China unless you have a chinese father. There are exceptions but it pretty much boils down to having a Chinese face and being from a family that isn't far removed from local culture.
I mean if they'd done that they wouldn't have opened this can of worms would they?
Unlike China, Western Europe *needs* immigrants to work here. You know, with the whole high education and high standard of living, we just don't want to work on a construction line day in day out anymore.
And I don't think we should look to China's immigration laws as a shining example, but I can't find any proof of xenophobia this easily.
Well China gives out work permits, but countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia do so to a mich larger extent- and I don't think their guest worker population would be eligible for citizenship.
Yeah. The development boom in Dubai, for an example, is riding on the backs of poor workers, mostly from the Phillippines, who have no rights and no stake in the country they're helping build. I sometimes wonder if the French government isn't a little jealous of situations like that
I think the difference is that these Philippines only want to work in Dubai, make a lot of cash for their families and couldn't care less about the country they're in. The North African immigrants want to live here, not just work.
I think the difference is that these Philippines only want to work in Dubai, make a lot of cash for their families and couldn't care less about the country they're in. The North African immigrants want to live here, not just work.
I'm sure a lot of guest workers would love to move to their host countries but send all their money home because they know it's not going to happen.
I think the difference is that these Philippines only want to work in Dubai, make a lot of cash for their families and couldn't care less about the country they're in. The North African immigrants want to live here, not just work.
I'm sure a lot of guest workers would love to move to their host countries but send all their money home because they know it's not going to happen.
mmmhmm. Look, qualified tradespeople from Aus are being shipped over there along with their families and given all kinds of truly ridiculous perks to keep them there, but the less-skilled don't get any of that. Instead, they get to spend years a million miles away from their families, living in places a bare step up from shanty towns, and the only perk is that at least it pays more than wading around in a rice padi, slowly ruining your spine, and is less likely to wind up with you in effective debt-slavery, as a lot of the closer-to-home textile factory jobs will. Its really just taking advantage of people in shit situations.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I think the difference is that these Philippines only want to work in Dubai, make a lot of cash for their families and couldn't care less about the country they're in. The North African immigrants want to live here, not just work.
I'm sure a lot of guest workers would love to move to their host countries but send all their money home because they know it's not going to happen.
I would guess it would depend on country. From what I've read and discussions with Saudis being a guest worker there is a few steps away from pure hell.
Yeah, I don't really see how any country should owe unskilled foreign labors citizenship. Even if they were able to take some in, it wouldn't be fair to the others stuck there. It's not right to exploit them but it's not like most countries are obligated to take people in the way the US did in the early 20th century.
Yeah, I don't really see how any country should owe unskilled foreign labors citizenship. Even if they were able to take some in, it wouldn't be fair to the others stuck there. It's not right to exploit them but it's not like most countries are obligated to take people in the way the US did in the early 20th century.
Why not? These people migrated to France and requested to become French, because they want to escape from poverty, maybe give their children a chance to make something out of their lives. It's not like they're giving passports away like candy anyway.
I dont know much about France, but I did hang out with French exchange kids last semester. One of the most popular guys in their clique was Algerian, and there were Chinese, Catalonian and Arab kids too. Some of them got along better than others, but it didn't seem like race was any more of a deal than it would be to any multiethnic group of college kids. However I'd bet that if you met the parents of those 20 year old Algerian and Chinese people, they wouldn't be as assimilated.
Also, I don't think culture clash was a problem for those kids because all they did was get trashe on hard liquor every night and go clubbing.
Yeah, I don't really see how any country should owe unskilled foreign labors citizenship. Even if they were able to take some in, it wouldn't be fair to the others stuck there. It's not right to exploit them but it's not like most countries are obligated to take people in the way the US did in the early 20th century.
Why not? These people migrated to France and requested to become French, because they want to escape from poverty, maybe give their children a chance to make something out of their lives. It's not like they're giving passports away like candy anyway.
If French society wants to open itself to a symbiotic relationship with people from other cultures, it should be prepared to see some change in its cultural landscape. Apparently that isn't the case with a lot of people, and I can't help but question why they couldn't have made that choice initially.
Because no one is going to completely change their identity just because they moved to a different country.
*In 2005, unemployment in the banlieues was 20%, while the national average was 10% [2]; in some neighborhoods, it exceeded 40%. One explanation for this is that the general level of education in these areas is well below the national average, which, in a context where it is difficult to find jobs requiring little or no qualifications, is bound to generate high unemployment.
High unemployment, lower education, less access to jobs, and a perception of racial profiling on behalf of the police as well as the government. I'm not seeing how these specific immigrants are 'unwilling to assimilate'. To me it seems they're wanting to assimilate or at least prosper within France but are running into institutional and cultural hurdles which haven't yet been addressed by the government.
Having unemployment be double, or quadruple, that of the national average in poverty areas is (off the top of my head) not uncommon in pretty much any first world country.
I would like to know what the root causes of the low education are. Shoddy facilities, cultural (as much as I hate to throw it out there it can be a significant factor), general poverty (though if there are no jobs I'm not sure the last holds as it does elsewhere), and so on. Basically, it could either be outright governmental causes, or a more or less naturally arising phenomena and I don't think we can safely lay blame until we know more.
Education really isn't poor in France, in fact, it's quite good. The government pays for schooling from literally the age of 3 until 18, when French students take the BAC, after which they can choose to go to a university that is also essentially free.(which is actually why french students are currently rioting, Sarkozy is trying to privatize the universities, which would raise the fees) However, school is only mandatory until 18, and even then, there's no way to ensure that you go.
There are, however, extreme racial tensions in France, but it is not just the fault of the French government. The immigrants that come here, especially those from North Africa, have the tendency to only integrate into communities that already have a heavy Arab population. There is little desire to integrate into French culture on their part. At the same time, they literally are second class citizens, the French do not have the same laws regarding citizenship by birthright that we do. Even if you are born on French soil, if your parents are not French citizens you are not automatically granted citizenship. You must wait either 10 years, or even until you are 18 before you can apply, I don't remember exactly.
The biggest problem with all this, however, is how extremely violent the french youth are. There is a reason the police don't actively patrol the banlieues, any incident with the police, even if it was not at all instigated by them, will inevitably and usually immediately degenerate into rioting. I live in Grenoble, a largely student town, and I've seen cars torched. Again, these two youths crashed into a police car on a bike they had stolen...the police did nothing wrong in this situation, but the youth don't care. It's not about that. They just look for any excuse to justify any action against what they see as the arm of the institutions that are holding them down, but in reality, it's nowhere near that simple.
It's impossible to lay all the blame for France's current problems solely on the government.
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"There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts."
Yeah, I don't really see how any country should owe unskilled foreign labors citizenship. Even if they were able to take some in, it wouldn't be fair to the others stuck there. It's not right to exploit them but it's not like most countries are obligated to take people in the way the US did in the early 20th century.
Why not? These people migrated to France and requested to become French, because they want to escape from poverty, maybe give their children a chance to make something out of their lives. It's not like they're giving passports away like candy anyway.
If French society wants to open itself to a symbiotic relationship with people from other cultures, it should be prepared to see some change in its cultural landscape. Apparently that isn't the case with a lot of people, and I can't help but question why they couldn't have made that choice initially.
Because no one is going to completely change their identity just because they moved to a different country.
But French society has always been like this. France has always had a very heavy immigrant population, much like the US. But it's a give and take process, and France has also always expected that it's immigrants make an effort towards assimilation into French culture. Let's not forget that France's current president was born of Hungarian parents. The majority of France's current problems with racial and immigrant tensions stem from the fact that a very large segment of the immigrant population is violently refusing to integrate at all.
IloroKamou on
"There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts."
Also not just a problem in France but in most European countries; other countries just don't have quite the level of rioting...yet. The problem is with European countries having a more convoluted and better established history than the countries that have previously seen high levels of immigration combined with an extremely low birthrate for the native population (even the birthrate of UK citizens is below 2.2, but the population is still predicted to double by 2082 due to immigration/birthrate amongst non-UK citizens).
Yeah, I don't really see how any country should owe unskilled foreign labors citizenship. Even if they were able to take some in, it wouldn't be fair to the others stuck there. It's not right to exploit them but it's not like most countries are obligated to take people in the way the US did in the early 20th century.
Why not? These people migrated to France and requested to become French, because they want to escape from poverty, maybe give their children a chance to make something out of their lives. It's not like they're giving passports away like candy anyway.
If French society wants to open itself to a symbiotic relationship with people from other cultures, it should be prepared to see some change in its cultural landscape. Apparently that isn't the case with a lot of people, and I can't help but question why they couldn't have made that choice initially.
Because no one is going to completely change their identity just because they moved to a different country.
But the French don't want other cultures and they doesn't want to incorporate any other culture into their culture. One will not be able to change this about French culture at least for any time soon. They should really put this in big letters on the top of the immigration form:
"WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR RELIGION/CULTURE NOR WILL WE ACCOMMODATE THEM FOR YOU.
WELCOME TO FRANCE!"
You cant have a group of people come into a country and then demand that Islam should be introduced as the rule of law whilst refusing to integrate, and ignore that they are a problem when millions of other immigrants can come into the country and do very nicely for themselves and are very much benefited from and benefit said country.
Where is that group?
In France? Some basic research shows Exrtemeism was dealt with very forcefully in the 1990's
The French Government clamped down on radical Islam in a way that no other country has. No mosque or Islamic prayer hall is off limits to police. Imams preaching hate are regularly deported. France stopped giving asylum to Islamic extremists wanted in their home country, and was disgusted when many of them were given refuge in Britain. As a result of France’s draconian anti- terror laws, the country is thought to be comparatively free of terrorist networks.
(mad respect to the French government for this, even though they pussied out of Iraq)
However, even still the Atlanta Journal Constitution reports
Venissieux, on the edge of the southeastern city of Lyon, epitomizes France's troubled big city suburbs, teeming with high-rises, cursed with soaring unemployment and peopled mostly by Muslim immigrants from France's former North African colonies. Generation after generation, they are unable to break out. ... A more radical brand of Islam took hold about five years ago, said deputy mayor Bayrem Braiki.
Muslim activists ``have been stuffing the brains of our youth ... explaining that the only way out is religion,'' said Braiki, 28, a practicing Muslim who grew up in Les Minguettes, this town's toughest neighborhood.
For instance, it was asked of me the other day "why is there a national black police force (http://www.nationalbpa.com/) and not a white one aswell?" Now the answer is obvious, however these questions are being asked.
Why should we accommodate people who are complete retards? That's not a "national black police force"; it's an association for black officers within the police.
You cant have a group of people come into a country and then demand that Islam should be introduced as the rule of law whilst refusing to integrate, and ignore that they are a problem when millions of other immigrants can come into the country and do very nicely for themselves and are very much benefited from and benefit said country.
Where is that group?
In France? Some basic research shows Exrtemeism was dealt with very forcefully in the 1990's.
I assumed the group you're referring to is immigrant population. And my statement about America still stands, along with the sack of salt I'm taking all this with.
Wow, I have to say about France. I feel they are dealing with the issue of immigrants and culture clash from what the US has been dealing from past.
From personal experience early 90s there was a heavy backlash towards Latinos and racial tensions which we remember as LA Riots and policies of Governor I forget his name, and the anti Latino campaign.
But now there is not much of excluding immigrants its more finding a system for them to assimilate that is effective and fair. Even during the Immigrant marches during 2006(not sure on exact dates) the Los Angeles protesters where not carrying their countries flags but American wanting easy way to become a citizen. I just see US having open view on immigrants, not saying they are fair, but I see more the policy shifting from kicking everyone out to, "ok we have immigrants here we need to create a system for those who work and pay taxes to become citizens"
This is my personal experience living in Los Angeles through early 90s and currently with Immigrants marches (not riots to note that) I feel theres more ability for the marginalize to voice their issues without resulting to violence.
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“You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go...”
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You'll Go!
You cant have a group of people come into a country and then demand that Islam should be introduced as the rule of law whilst refusing to integrate, and ignore that they are a problem when millions of other immigrants can come into the country and do very nicely for themselves and are very much benefited from and benefit said country.
Where is that group?
In France? Some basic research shows Exrtemeism was dealt with very forcefully in the 1990's.
I assumed the group you're referring to is immigrant population. And my statement about America still stands, along with the sack of salt I'm taking all this with.
Thats because your assuming all Immigrants are the same. Whilst there are thousands of Immigrants, in the USA and Europe, including Muslim immigrants and African immigrants from old colonies, who have perfectly integrated and are fine, there are a small group that refuse. As I have said before, Europe isn't the problem.
Thats because your assuming all Immigrants are the same. Whilst there are thousands of Immigrants, in the USA and Europe, including Muslim immigrants and African immigrants from old colonies, who have perfectly integrated and are fine, there are a small group that refuse. As I have said before, Europe isn't the problem.
Since when did this move from France to "Europe"? This is a French problem we're discussing, and as much as the French might like to escape scrutiny and have the problem seem like an endemic continental one, I think they'd bristle more at being blindly lumped in with the rest of those countries that they are emphatically so much different and better than.
so I'm more than skeptical of the claim that Europe is having problems because their immigrants are impossible to integrate
Do you have a problem understanding that that Europe is having problems because a small handfull of their immigrants are impossible to integrate?
It's a small enough number to cause major violence, property destruction, and harm to police officers. When the LA riots occurred, it's not as if the number of people actively rioting in LA represented anything besides a terribly minor segment of the American population, but sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the problems that created the situation is daft. Any time a society is in a position where rioting occurs, something is out of balance, and it's the duty of the government and its people to attempt to redress it. Draconian policies of further policing and refusal to explore progressive solutions traditionally hasn't worked well unless you fall over into a complete police state that just blindly eliminates its opponents.
Yes -- the Muslim immigrants could probably do more in many cases to avoid tension with the white, native French majority, but the French majority could also do its share to help integrate this new population of immigrants who are necessary for France's continued economic growth.
the French majority could also do its share to help integrate this new population of immigrants who are necessary for France's continued economic growth.
I would argue that the ones that are not integrating are not necessary for Frances economic growth and that France could make do with the many others that are integrating perfectly fine, so why should the French majority change there country to make do for other people?
I appreciate im often alone in this opinion on this Forum.
so I'm more than skeptical of the claim that Europe is having problems because their immigrants are impossible to integrate
Do you have a problem understanding that that Europe is having problems because a small handfull of their immigrants are impossible to integrate?
Do you have a problem understanding that I see more less the same immigrants in this country, but not the problem they have in Europe?
Thats because America is open to change in its culture. Unlike France where if it changes the culture, even in the smallest of ways, its automatically a bad thing.
the French majority could also do its share to help integrate this new population of immigrants who are necessary for France's continued economic growth.
I would argue that the ones that are not integrating are not necessary for Frances economic growth and that France could make do with the many others that are integrating perfectly fine, so why should the French majority change there country to make do for other people?
I appreciate im often alone in this opinion on this Forum.
You would think that maybe, just maybe, you might wonder why nobody's agreeing with you.
It has to do with the fact that you're pretty much wrong.
The French idea of "integration" is "abandond who you were and become French". This is neither healthy nor practical.
the French majority could also do its share to help integrate this new population of immigrants who are necessary for France's continued economic growth.
I would argue that the ones that are not integrating are not necessary for Frances economic growth and that France could make do with the many others that are integrating perfectly fine, so why should the French majority change there country to make do for other people?
I appreciate im often alone in this opinion on this Forum.
I don't think it's really possible to pick and choose the good apples from the bad apples, as it were, when dealing with immigrant populations (not to say that's stopped the French from trying, and we can see where that's gotten them). When the community enters the country, it inevitably comes with sons, daughters, brothers, mothers, etc. Some of those people make do, find a job, and are comfortable. Some of those people don't fit in, and don't feel welcome. What results is this situation France has now.
Like Elkamil is saying, there has been a lot of emigration from Northern Africa and large communities have developed in many different regions of the first world. France, as it stands, is the one that seems to be having the most problems integrating them. This probably has something to do with their colonial past and the the fluidity of transition between certain sectors, but some of it definitely has to do with France's arrogance and insistence on their cultural primacy.
I mean this is the country that has an official language institute that comes up with a French word for any popular English word that finds common currency. They have a fucking stick up their ass, and that attitude doesn't work when living in a multicultural society, which -- hey, hope you enjoyed those colonies while you exploited them -- because you're fucking multicultural now, France.
so I'm more than skeptical of the claim that Europe is having problems because their immigrants are impossible to integrate
Do you have a problem understanding that that Europe is having problems because a small handfull of their immigrants are impossible to integrate?
Do you have a problem understanding that I see more less the same immigrants in this country, but not the problem they have in Europe?
I don't think many Americans understand how very, very lucky we've been. And, since I'm a patriot, I'll say: our system works best! We're a deeply pluralistic society and I think that Muslim immigrants have done very well. So, yay for us.
That said, there are a whole host of reasons why American hasn't had the same problems as Europe re: Muslim integration that, sad to say, are not directly due to our own awesomeness, or due to Europe's supposed racism. We have an economy that is very good at absorbing newcomers. We're *constantly* expanding and there's still plenty of room for everyone. Christ, half of the American economy is due to new homes being built. Which is to say, I think it's easier to find a job in the states, and we're a very regionalized nation. Immigrants figure out which areas are hospitable and cheap and they move there.
I don't think racism has much to do with it. I can assure you that Europe doesn't have a higher percentage of racists than America does, or vice versa. The issue is really about how well equipped different countries are for taking on new people. Most of my least favorite things about America (the fact that it's very clearly sink-or-swim, and fuck you if you sink) also make it much easier for hard working immigrants to make a place for themselves.
/edit -- and Willeh Dee, I totally agree with you. I've got lots of family all over the continent, and the way you describe things rings pretty true to me. It's definitely not a France-only issue -- they've just managed to exacerbate the tensions worse.
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Anyways, I live in America, in an area with a very large Middle Eastern population that's doing very well for itself (and that seems to be the case in many other areas in this country), so I'm more than skeptical of the claim that Europe is having problems because their immigrants are impossible to integrate.
I agree with your conclusion, but your reasoning is flawed because it assumes that all Middle Eastern populations are uniform. One would expect that the different relationships between America and the ME and Europe and the ME would have given rise to different types of immigrant populations.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Anyways, I live in America, in an area with a very large Middle Eastern population that's doing very well for itself (and that seems to be the case in many other areas in this country), so I'm more than skeptical of the claim that Europe is having problems because their immigrants are impossible to integrate.
I agree with your conclusion, but your reasoning is flawed because it assumes that all Middle Eastern populations are uniform. One would expect that the different relationships between America and the ME and Europe and the ME would have given rise to different types of immigrant populations.
It's not simply just immigrant populations from the ME. Most of France's Muslim immigrants are from Northern Africa.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Anyways, I live in America, in an area with a very large Middle Eastern population that's doing very well for itself (and that seems to be the case in many other areas in this country), so I'm more than skeptical of the claim that Europe is having problems because their immigrants are impossible to integrate.
I agree with your conclusion, but your reasoning is flawed because it assumes that all Middle Eastern populations are uniform. One would expect that the different relationships between America and the ME and Europe and the ME would have given rise to different types of immigrant populations.
It's not simply just immigrant populations from the ME. Most of France's Muslim immigrants are from Northern Africa.
Bringing with them issues of post-colonization and the like.
Anyways, I live in America, in an area with a very large Middle Eastern population that's doing very well for itself (and that seems to be the case in many other areas in this country), so I'm more than skeptical of the claim that Europe is having problems because their immigrants are impossible to integrate.
I agree with your conclusion, but your reasoning is flawed because it assumes that all Middle Eastern populations are uniform. One would expect that the different relationships between America and the ME and Europe and the ME would have given rise to different types of immigrant populations.
It's not simply just immigrant populations from the ME. Most of France's Muslim immigrants are from Northern Africa.
I'm pretty sure the Elkamil was including N. Africa when he said ME.
Did European countries ever had in their history major influx of immigrants, like in us during the Industrial Revolution and so on? Maybe its because many European countries just don't know how to deal with groups of different backgrounds and Europe's old blood mentality? I never knew Europe are having these issues.
Horus on
“You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go...”
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You'll Go!
Did European countries ever had in their history major influx of immigrants, like in us during the Industrial Revolution and so on? Maybe its because many European countries just don't know how to deal with groups of different backgrounds and Europe's old blood mentality? I never knew Europe are having these issues.
Yes. France, for instance, had a major influx of Italian immigrants in the early part of the century.
The point might stand though that European nations are less welcoming of immigrants.
Did European countries ever had in their history major influx of immigrants, like in us during the Industrial Revolution and so on? Maybe its because many European countries just don't know how to deal with groups of different backgrounds and Europe's old blood mentality? I never knew Europe are having these issues.
Yes. France, for instance, had a major influx of Italian immigrants in the early part of the century.
The point might stand though that European nations are less welcoming of immigrants.
But I thought Europe was more open to immigrants, or are they open withing Europe immigrants than say Africa & Middle East? I getting this off from personal talks with people from Europe.
Horus on
“You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go...”
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You'll Go!
Not for many centuries, and, as I said on the previous page, you have to couple that with a very low birthrate for citizens in all European countries. That plus sensationalist reporting that's pushing a 'us vs them' mentality. Oh, and many European countries have socialised healthcare and welfare that reporters also capatilise on.
Did European countries ever had in their history major influx of immigrants, like in us during the Industrial Revolution and so on? Maybe its because many European countries just don't know how to deal with groups of different backgrounds and Europe's old blood mentality? I never knew Europe are having these issues.
Yes. France, for instance, had a major influx of Italian immigrants in the early part of the century.
The point might stand though that European nations are less welcoming of immigrants.
But I thought Europe was more open to immigrants, or are they open withing Europe immigrants than say Africa & Middle East? I getting this off from personal talks with people from Europe.
Yeah, European immigrants don't attract nearly so much attention, especially with the EU. Plus pretty much any European has a few ancestors from neighbouring countries.
Did European countries ever had in their history major influx of immigrants, like in us during the Industrial Revolution and so on? Maybe its because many European countries just don't know how to deal with groups of different backgrounds and Europe's old blood mentality? I never knew Europe are having these issues.
Yes. France, for instance, had a major influx of Italian immigrants in the early part of the century.
The point might stand though that European nations are less welcoming of immigrants.
But I thought Europe was more open to immigrants, or are they open withing Europe immigrants than say Africa & Middle East? I getting this off from personal talks with people from Europe.
Yeah, European immigrants don't attract nearly so much attention, especially with the EU. Plus pretty much any European has a few ancestors from neighbouring countries.
Well, European immigrants don't attract as much attention now - although the British seem to get bent out of shape about the Polish.
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He'd do it if you gave him the turkey's lungs :P
Well China gives out work permits, but countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia do so to a mich larger extent- and I don't think their guest worker population would be eligible for citizenship.
I'm sure a lot of guest workers would love to move to their host countries but send all their money home because they know it's not going to happen.
mmmhmm. Look, qualified tradespeople from Aus are being shipped over there along with their families and given all kinds of truly ridiculous perks to keep them there, but the less-skilled don't get any of that. Instead, they get to spend years a million miles away from their families, living in places a bare step up from shanty towns, and the only perk is that at least it pays more than wading around in a rice padi, slowly ruining your spine, and is less likely to wind up with you in effective debt-slavery, as a lot of the closer-to-home textile factory jobs will. Its really just taking advantage of people in shit situations.
I would guess it would depend on country. From what I've read and discussions with Saudis being a guest worker there is a few steps away from pure hell.
Also, I don't think culture clash was a problem for those kids because all they did was get trashe on hard liquor every night and go clubbing.
If French society wants to open itself to a symbiotic relationship with people from other cultures, it should be prepared to see some change in its cultural landscape. Apparently that isn't the case with a lot of people, and I can't help but question why they couldn't have made that choice initially.
Because no one is going to completely change their identity just because they moved to a different country.
Education really isn't poor in France, in fact, it's quite good. The government pays for schooling from literally the age of 3 until 18, when French students take the BAC, after which they can choose to go to a university that is also essentially free.(which is actually why french students are currently rioting, Sarkozy is trying to privatize the universities, which would raise the fees) However, school is only mandatory until 18, and even then, there's no way to ensure that you go.
There are, however, extreme racial tensions in France, but it is not just the fault of the French government. The immigrants that come here, especially those from North Africa, have the tendency to only integrate into communities that already have a heavy Arab population. There is little desire to integrate into French culture on their part. At the same time, they literally are second class citizens, the French do not have the same laws regarding citizenship by birthright that we do. Even if you are born on French soil, if your parents are not French citizens you are not automatically granted citizenship. You must wait either 10 years, or even until you are 18 before you can apply, I don't remember exactly.
The biggest problem with all this, however, is how extremely violent the french youth are. There is a reason the police don't actively patrol the banlieues, any incident with the police, even if it was not at all instigated by them, will inevitably and usually immediately degenerate into rioting. I live in Grenoble, a largely student town, and I've seen cars torched. Again, these two youths crashed into a police car on a bike they had stolen...the police did nothing wrong in this situation, but the youth don't care. It's not about that. They just look for any excuse to justify any action against what they see as the arm of the institutions that are holding them down, but in reality, it's nowhere near that simple.
It's impossible to lay all the blame for France's current problems solely on the government.
But French society has always been like this. France has always had a very heavy immigrant population, much like the US. But it's a give and take process, and France has also always expected that it's immigrants make an effort towards assimilation into French culture. Let's not forget that France's current president was born of Hungarian parents. The majority of France's current problems with racial and immigrant tensions stem from the fact that a very large segment of the immigrant population is violently refusing to integrate at all.
But the French don't want other cultures and they doesn't want to incorporate any other culture into their culture. One will not be able to change this about French culture at least for any time soon. They should really put this in big letters on the top of the immigration form:
WELCOME TO FRANCE!"
The fact that north africans face serious discrimination at the hands of the public and private sectors seems more relevant.
France is a bit worse then most, but still.
In France? Some basic research shows Exrtemeism was dealt with very forcefully in the 1990's
(mad respect to the French government for this, even though they pussied out of Iraq)
However, even still the Atlanta Journal Constitution reports
Why should we accommodate people who are complete retards? That's not a "national black police force"; it's an association for black officers within the police.
I assumed the group you're referring to is immigrant population. And my statement about America still stands, along with the sack of salt I'm taking all this with.
From personal experience early 90s there was a heavy backlash towards Latinos and racial tensions which we remember as LA Riots and policies of Governor I forget his name, and the anti Latino campaign.
But now there is not much of excluding immigrants its more finding a system for them to assimilate that is effective and fair. Even during the Immigrant marches during 2006(not sure on exact dates) the Los Angeles protesters where not carrying their countries flags but American wanting easy way to become a citizen. I just see US having open view on immigrants, not saying they are fair, but I see more the policy shifting from kicking everyone out to, "ok we have immigrants here we need to create a system for those who work and pay taxes to become citizens"
This is my personal experience living in Los Angeles through early 90s and currently with Immigrants marches (not riots to note that) I feel theres more ability for the marginalize to voice their issues without resulting to violence.
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You'll Go!
Thats because your assuming all Immigrants are the same. Whilst there are thousands of Immigrants, in the USA and Europe, including Muslim immigrants and African immigrants from old colonies, who have perfectly integrated and are fine, there are a small group that refuse. As I have said before, Europe isn't the problem.
Do you have a problem understanding that that Europe is having problems because a small handfull of their immigrants are impossible to integrate?
It's a small enough number to cause major violence, property destruction, and harm to police officers. When the LA riots occurred, it's not as if the number of people actively rioting in LA represented anything besides a terribly minor segment of the American population, but sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the problems that created the situation is daft. Any time a society is in a position where rioting occurs, something is out of balance, and it's the duty of the government and its people to attempt to redress it. Draconian policies of further policing and refusal to explore progressive solutions traditionally hasn't worked well unless you fall over into a complete police state that just blindly eliminates its opponents.
Yes -- the Muslim immigrants could probably do more in many cases to avoid tension with the white, native French majority, but the French majority could also do its share to help integrate this new population of immigrants who are necessary for France's continued economic growth.
I would argue that the ones that are not integrating are not necessary for Frances economic growth and that France could make do with the many others that are integrating perfectly fine, so why should the French majority change there country to make do for other people?
I appreciate im often alone in this opinion on this Forum.
Do you have a problem understanding that I see more less the same immigrants in this country, but not the problem they have in Europe?
Thats because America is open to change in its culture. Unlike France where if it changes the culture, even in the smallest of ways, its automatically a bad thing.
You would think that maybe, just maybe, you might wonder why nobody's agreeing with you.
It has to do with the fact that you're pretty much wrong.
The French idea of "integration" is "abandond who you were and become French". This is neither healthy nor practical.
Like Elkamil is saying, there has been a lot of emigration from Northern Africa and large communities have developed in many different regions of the first world. France, as it stands, is the one that seems to be having the most problems integrating them. This probably has something to do with their colonial past and the the fluidity of transition between certain sectors, but some of it definitely has to do with France's arrogance and insistence on their cultural primacy.
I mean this is the country that has an official language institute that comes up with a French word for any popular English word that finds common currency. They have a fucking stick up their ass, and that attitude doesn't work when living in a multicultural society, which -- hey, hope you enjoyed those colonies while you exploited them -- because you're fucking multicultural now, France.
I don't think many Americans understand how very, very lucky we've been. And, since I'm a patriot, I'll say: our system works best! We're a deeply pluralistic society and I think that Muslim immigrants have done very well. So, yay for us.
That said, there are a whole host of reasons why American hasn't had the same problems as Europe re: Muslim integration that, sad to say, are not directly due to our own awesomeness, or due to Europe's supposed racism. We have an economy that is very good at absorbing newcomers. We're *constantly* expanding and there's still plenty of room for everyone. Christ, half of the American economy is due to new homes being built. Which is to say, I think it's easier to find a job in the states, and we're a very regionalized nation. Immigrants figure out which areas are hospitable and cheap and they move there.
I don't think racism has much to do with it. I can assure you that Europe doesn't have a higher percentage of racists than America does, or vice versa. The issue is really about how well equipped different countries are for taking on new people. Most of my least favorite things about America (the fact that it's very clearly sink-or-swim, and fuck you if you sink) also make it much easier for hard working immigrants to make a place for themselves.
/edit -- and Willeh Dee, I totally agree with you. I've got lots of family all over the continent, and the way you describe things rings pretty true to me. It's definitely not a France-only issue -- they've just managed to exacerbate the tensions worse.
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I agree with your conclusion, but your reasoning is flawed because it assumes that all Middle Eastern populations are uniform. One would expect that the different relationships between America and the ME and Europe and the ME would have given rise to different types of immigrant populations.
It's not simply just immigrant populations from the ME. Most of France's Muslim immigrants are from Northern Africa.
I'm pretty sure the Elkamil was including N. Africa when he said ME.
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You'll Go!
Yes. France, for instance, had a major influx of Italian immigrants in the early part of the century.
The point might stand though that European nations are less welcoming of immigrants.
But I thought Europe was more open to immigrants, or are they open withing Europe immigrants than say Africa & Middle East? I getting this off from personal talks with people from Europe.
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You'll Go!
For a good example of how a vast number of Europeans think, just read the top rated comments on this topic on the BBC forums.
Yeah, European immigrants don't attract nearly so much attention, especially with the EU. Plus pretty much any European has a few ancestors from neighbouring countries.
Well, European immigrants don't attract as much attention now - although the British seem to get bent out of shape about the Polish.