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Political Correctness and the Demonology of Modern Prejudice

ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
edited December 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Does political correctness sometimes get in the way of finding, stating, and accepting facts?

Why are we, as a society, so obsessed with political correctness?

We see this in social sciences a lot; studies and experiments will not get funding because they aim to challenge topics that certain social or political groups are sensitive to, and on the rare occasion that they do get funding, if they end up finding results that go against notions related to political correctness - for example, in topics such as racial, ethnic, and gender studies - instead of confirming modern society's bull-headed and blind bias towards "equality", they are simply ridiculed and rejected by scientific authorities and by society at large.

Considering the history of gender inequality, this is understandable. People have a strong tendency to use scientific study results as a justification for the way they act. A naturalistic fallacy, so to speak - using descriptions as prescriptions. For idiots, the explanation of why things are the way they are is not a big leap away from claiming how things should be.

But this is not valid grounds for strong reactions against politically incorrect findings. Let me elaborate.

The scientific community has been running into this problem lately in their studies of biological and psychological differences in men and women. They're finding that men on average are better at spatial tasks and women better at verbal ones. They are finding that male babies are obsessed with mantling, assembling, destroying, possessing and coveting things, whereas female babies are fascinated by people and treat their toys as surrogate people. They are finding that when shown a picture crowded with people and objects, male babies' vision focuses on objects and female babies' vision on people. They are realizing that while social conditioning reinforces these differences - we give boys car/sword/lego toys, we give girls pink doll toys - it does not create them.

The question is, in modern society, are we really doing a bad thing by reinforcing these differences, or playing into them in things such as marketing? I value gender equality and equality in opportunities as much as anyone else. I don't think we should discriminate based on gender. But when it comes to strong - and usually feminist - reactions towards gender conditioning, I am not so convinced. I don't think it would make me a sexist pig if I bought pink dolls for my baby daughter and car/truck toys for my baby son; those are the kinds of toys they are genetically disposed to like.

The thing is, specialization does pay off. That is how human society has survived and flourished to this age. This is not a justification for discrimination; I don't think anyone should be forced into anything they don't want. I think a healthy balance can be - no, should be - struck between trying to play into the different strengths of males and females while leaving individuals of both genders free to pursue what they want and giving them equal opportunities to do so.

And that is where the problem is in my eyes: as a society we were (and in some places, still are) on one extreme end of the spectrum where we were forcing boys and girls into their respective roles, and today we're trying to go to the opposite extreme where we are trying to establish a bull-headed gender equality and forcing both genders into the same mold; you can see a particular example of this in today's school system (in Western societies), where boys and girls are put into the same curriculum and type of education regardless of the fact that they excel in different areas and respond to different treatments. Seems unfair to both genders. Yet if a school administrator were even to suggest that, hey, let's customize the curriculum because that is what freakin' makes sense, they'd immediately be branded "sexist". Feminists and the large parts of "progressive" society they have intimidated into submission would be on his ass immediately.

Also, it does really bother me that people see engineering disciplines dominated by guys and social disciplines dominated by girls, and scream discrimination and repression. Okay sure, I think both play a certain role, maybe a rather large role. But recent research is strongly suggesting that one of the underlying reasons for the unequal distribution of genders among those disciplines is that both genders are genetically disposed to liking those disciplines. It doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest - although it certainly is offensive to politically correct individuals - that male babies like assembling, dismantling, destroying things and are better at spatial tasks, so they are more disposed to becoming engineers than sociologists when they grow up.

The latter part is of course regarded as nonsense by the politically correct. And this is ironic because in our fear of offending people, we are missing large parts of the picture and thus having trouble solving the actual problem.

Thoughts?

P.S. No personal attacks please. :)

ege02 on
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    ChurchChurch Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    It's not nice to hurt someone's feelings.

    Church on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    How is gender equality forcing people into holes?
    Pretty pink princesses and softball coaches should be equal to effeminate tailors or lumberjacks.
    Saying children are genetically disposed to playing with Tonka trucks actually made me snort.
    Are you aware of how genes work?

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Does political correctness sometimes get in the way of finding, stating, and accepting facts?

    Why are we, as a society, so obsessed with political correctness?

    They'll sue ya.


    Fag.

    TL DR on
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    ChurchChurch Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Something is amiss here...

    I know!

    Fuzzy and ege--trade titles.

    Church on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    Pending a formal reply, I just want to say the variance between members of a sex outpaces the difference between the sexes to begin with. Also, remember the difference between 'gender' and 'sex' and use the terms appropriately. Also, I'm still too busy /boggling to make that formal reply and I don't think I ever will.

    Oboro on
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2007
    Alright, that's enough jokes. We can't get any better than Church's anyway.

    Elki on
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    The scientific community has been running into this problem lately in their studies of biological and psychological differences in men and women. They're finding that men on average are better at spatial tasks and women better at verbal ones. They are finding that male babies are obsessed with mantling, assembling, destroying, possessing and coveting things, whereas female babies are fascinated by people and treat their toys as surrogate people. They are finding that when shown a picture crowded with people and objects, male babies' vision focuses on objects and female babies' vision on people. They are realizing that while social conditioning reinforces these differences - we give boys car/sword/lego toys, we give girls pink doll toys - it does not create them.

    They're also finding that these numbers change dramatically after a few hours of video games. In short-- incorrect.

    Adrien on
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    JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Jinnigan on
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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Adrien wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    The scientific community has been running into this problem lately in their studies of biological and psychological differences in men and women. They're finding that men on average are better at spatial tasks and women better at verbal ones. They are finding that male babies are obsessed with mantling, assembling, destroying, possessing and coveting things, whereas female babies are fascinated by people and treat their toys as surrogate people. They are finding that when shown a picture crowded with people and objects, male babies' vision focuses on objects and female babies' vision on people. They are realizing that while social conditioning reinforces these differences - we give boys car/sword/lego toys, we give girls pink doll toys - it does not create them.

    They're also finding that these numbers change dramatically after a few hours of video games. In short-- incorrect.

    I don't think any decent studies have ever shown a greater difference between the sexes than between individual members of each.

    I mean, I treated my toys as surrogate people, because I was fascinated with people and I loved Calvin and Hobbes (named my teddy bear and took him on adventures shut up it was awesome). My sister and I used to build towers out of blocks together and wang superballs at them to knock them over. I also loved giant LEGO creations. We played barbie together. Not that anecdotal evidence really counts, but "studies show" also doesn't really inspire confidence. And I find that the next step is "well billy/susie really loved trucks/dolls it's got to be genetic!".

    Also, as should be said in every single one of these threads: Psychology is an incredibly young, incredibly rich science. Deciding that something is a given at this point in time is very naive.

    Edit: Also, the videogames thing is awesome. It's such a wonderfully out of left field finding.

    durandal4532 on
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2007
    Adrien wrote: »
    ege02 wrote: »
    The scientific community has been running into this problem lately in their studies of biological and psychological differences in men and women. They're finding that men on average are better at spatial tasks and women better at verbal ones. They are finding that male babies are obsessed with mantling, assembling, destroying, possessing and coveting things, whereas female babies are fascinated by people and treat their toys as surrogate people. They are finding that when shown a picture crowded with people and objects, male babies' vision focuses on objects and female babies' vision on people. They are realizing that while social conditioning reinforces these differences - we give boys car/sword/lego toys, we give girls pink doll toys - it does not create them.

    They're also finding that these numbers change dramatically after a few hours of video games. In short-- incorrect.

    I don't think any decent studies have ever shown a greater difference between the sexes than between individual members of each.

    A point repeated in every single gender thread, yet fails to ever stick. It's less about political incorrectness and more about plain ol' incorrectness. That second one is boring, though.

    Elki on
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    WashWash Sweet Christmas Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I've met people who were naturally talented writers, mathematicians, singers, and socializers. If there was a way to identify these talents at or before birth, it would probably have benefited the many talented people whose talents were abandoned because they didn't find them useful or lacked the resources to enter careers that made use of these talents. Maybe if such a system existed we'd get popular singers who could actually sing, and there wouldn't be any "Good Will Hunting" kids out there.

    Of course, this is on an individual basis here. Doing this with entire races and genders if fucking ludicrous.

    Wash on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    One reason for all these studies being unfunded is that we already know that genetic variation between humans is smaller than the variation of pretty much every other species.

    Scalfin on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    We're so sorry, ege, that you can't get away with saying nasty things about people without being called on it. Deal with it.

    Edit: And if you're wondering why the fuck there are so few females in technical disciplines, instead of dropping verbal diarrhea on us, try googling "Jade Raymond". That should answer it.

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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    The moment you can conclusively describe differences between populations, you have already passed the point where you can conclusively compare two subjects independent of populations. If there exists the point at which science can irrefutably state, "Males are better spatial reasoners than females, on average," we have already passed the point where a male and female applying to a job where spatial reasoning is pertinent may be compared. It is a composite lemma-- you absolutely cannot shirk this reality.

    For any quality we can test the aptitude of, we may test it between individuals; for any position for which this quality is relevant, the quality can be tested for in the applicant population.

    In an equal society, the onus falls to the employer or otherwise to determine aptitude among the relevant population, not amongst generalized populations-- science has only create the methods by which these aptitudes can be infallibly compared.

    The moment you can create a customized curriculum for females, you can create a curriculum which is even more efficient and specific to an actual population instead of a generalization thereof.

    Also, every actual feminist I have encountered has admitted that it's not about blatant 'equality' for everyone but equality of choice and opportunity. It's one thing to offer a custom curriculum, it's another thing entirely to force someone into it because of a congenital quality. The latter is oppressive-- the former is pushing the standard of education up by enhancing specialization and allowing people to slot themselves into more comfortable roles.

    It's just outright wrong to assume, however, that those roles/identities fall along such a simple axis as race or sex. The roles in question are self-defined, and not defined by any other characteristic. To claim otherwise is outright foolishness and detracts from the very efficiency and equality both you and those you lambaste are working towards.

    Oboro on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    One last thing: political correctness is an improved version of the rejection of swear words (the improvement being that we are rejecting meanings that are damaging rather than rejecting what are today meaningless syllables). In the same way, enforcement can sometimes be overzealous, but do we really want to expose our children to that type of trash?

    Scalfin on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    We're so sorry, ege, that you can't get away with saying nasty things about people without being called on it. Deal with it.

    Edit: And if you're wondering why the fuck there are so few females in technical disciplines, instead of dropping verbal diarrhea on us, try googling "Jade Raymond". That should answer it.
    Also, Larry Summers.

    Fencingsax on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    The problem with this stuff is similar to most evo-pych stuff. These studies, while interesting, almost always ignore other cultures. When you start approaching a subject like gender roles from a relativist point of view your conclusions are inherently skewed.

    nexuscrawler on
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    slowrollslowroll __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    I think a healthy balance can be - no, should be - struck between trying to play into the different strengths of males and females while leaving individuals of both genders free to pursue what they want and giving them equal opportunities to do so.

    this is the one part where you explain what you want to do, but nowhere do you explain how you would accomplish this.

    i don't get it. have you been to university? not every man is an engineer and not every woman is a sociologist. there is more variation of talents in the sexes than between them. if i want to be a sociologist, i don't want to be at a skill deficit due to specialized curriculums.

    slowroll on
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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    slowroll wrote: »
    I think a healthy balance can be - no, should be - struck between trying to play into the different strengths of males and females while leaving individuals of both genders free to pursue what they want and giving them equal opportunities to do so.

    this is the one part where you explain what you want to do, but nowhere do you explain how you would accomplish this.

    i don't get it. have you been to university? not every man is an engineer and not every woman is a sociologist. there is more variation of talents in the sexes than between them. if i want to be a sociologist, i don't want to be at a skill deficit due to specialized curriculums.

    Hell, Psych itself is 90% ladies in my school. I don't want to be at a disadvantage disproving really silly things people say because I was groomed for a friggin footballgineering degree.

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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    slowroll wrote: »
    I think a healthy balance can be - no, should be - struck between trying to play into the different strengths of males and females while leaving individuals of both genders free to pursue what they want and giving them equal opportunities to do so.
    this is the one part where you explain what you want to do, but nowhere do you explain how you would accomplish this.

    i don't get it. have you been to university? not every man is an engineer and not every woman is a sociologist. there is more variation of talents in the sexes than between them. if i want to be a sociologist, i don't want to be at a skill deficit due to specialized curriculums.
    I think the better question is what benefit do we get from specialized curriculums based on gender?

    I mean given the fact that some girls I know have a much better thought process for organic chemistry then me, yet others do English or health sciences - where in the hell is this common ground across a gender that is being implied to exist?

    electricitylikesme on
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    JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    And then I think, "Well, unless we were created by God, there'd have to be differences at least between sexes, right?"

    Evolutionarily speaking, we're still the same species, right, so differences in race would be non-existent, or at least inconsequential.

    But differences in sex, right?

    But I look around, and the only differences seem to be highly debated, or socially constructed. But, then I get into a nature-nurture chicken-egg kind of debate with regards to gender roles.

    *brainhurt*

    JamesKeenan on
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    slowrollslowroll __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    slowroll wrote: »
    I think a healthy balance can be - no, should be - struck between trying to play into the different strengths of males and females while leaving individuals of both genders free to pursue what they want and giving them equal opportunities to do so.
    this is the one part where you explain what you want to do, but nowhere do you explain how you would accomplish this.

    i don't get it. have you been to university? not every man is an engineer and not every woman is a sociologist. there is more variation of talents in the sexes than between them. if i want to be a sociologist, i don't want to be at a skill deficit due to specialized curriculums.
    I think the better question is what benefit do we get from specialized curriculums based on gender?

    I mean given the fact that some girls I know have a much better thought process for organic chemistry then me, yet others do English or health sciences - where in the hell is this common ground across a gender that is being implied to exist?

    that's what i was trying to point out

    there is more potential gains for specialization within genders than between them

    slowroll on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    goddamnit guys stop skipping my posts let it be done with let it be over with let the beast die

    Oboro on
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    slowrollslowroll __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    black people have, on average, longer achilles tendons! sorry buddy, your curriculum is now running, basketball and football because society is better off due to specialization. we'll leave finance to another race.

    slowroll on
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    NaromNarom Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Might I take the opportunity to ask for help with something? What you guys are saying about variation within gender versus between...are there some articles and such that discuss that, because that'll be important for me to know about should I find myself arguing about gender with other people (My mother in particular always talks about differences between men and women, and it grates on me :x ).

    Edit: I am a moron. Ignore me.

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    HF-kunHF-kun __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    How is gender equality forcing people into holes?
    Pretty pink princesses and softball coaches should be equal to effeminate tailors or lumberjacks.
    Saying children are genetically disposed to playing with Tonka trucks actually made me snort.
    Are you aware of how genes work?

    He may not, but I do (Just finishing a semester of genetics and molecular biology, not to mention already completing classes in cell biology, evolutionary biology, biophysics, cell and membrane physiology, etc, etc). I can say with confidence that the sexes do have some dispositions. No before I get beaten shitless, that doesn't mean women should be confined to the kitchen while big manly men go cut down trees, it just means you have to understand the reality of the situation.

    HF-kun on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    the reality of the situation is that I still see little boys with their parents in Toys 'R Us who want to get something from the aisle with the Barbies but they drag them over to the ninja turtles instead and fuck you do not get to that and it is more important to educate against 'the reality of the situation' as you know it HF-Kun when it is already the prevailing opinion, but to an unhealthy extent

    Oboro on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    I hate the people who think their 2 year old son is gay or something if he likes teddy bears and dolls

    nexuscrawler on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    HF-kun wrote: »
    How is gender equality forcing people into holes?
    Pretty pink princesses and softball coaches should be equal to effeminate tailors or lumberjacks.
    Saying children are genetically disposed to playing with Tonka trucks actually made me snort.
    Are you aware of how genes work?

    He may not, but I do (Just finishing a semester of genetics and molecular biology, not to mention already completing classes in cell biology, evolutionary biology, biophysics, cell and membrane physiology, etc, etc). I can say with confidence that the sexes do have some dispositions. No before I get beaten shitless, that doesn't mean women should be confined to the kitchen while big manly men go cut down trees, it just means you have to understand the reality of the situation.
    Did you skip the part where you learned that some genes aren't even activated unless there's a specific environment to trigger?
    Yeah, I guess you did.
    Yes we know men have XY chromosome and women have XX, hurr durr.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    HF-kunHF-kun __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    Oboro wrote: »
    the reality of the situation is that I still see little boys with their parents in Toys 'R Us who want to get something from the aisle with the Barbies but they drag them over to the ninja turtles instead and fuck you do not get to that and it is more important to educate against 'the reality of the situation' as you know it HF-Kun when it is already the prevailing opinion, but to an unhealthy extent

    Shit man, I'm not trying to justify that behavior. I'm simply dispelling the notion that the only difference between men and women is boobs, a dick, and body hair.

    EDIT: You mean epigenomics? Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with that. What of it?

    HF-kun on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    HF-kun wrote: »
    How is gender equality forcing people into holes?
    Pretty pink princesses and softball coaches should be equal to effeminate tailors or lumberjacks.
    Saying children are genetically disposed to playing with Tonka trucks actually made me snort.
    Are you aware of how genes work?

    He may not, but I do (Just finishing a semester of genetics and molecular biology, not to mention already completing classes in cell biology, evolutionary biology, biophysics, cell and membrane physiology, etc, etc). I can say with confidence that the sexes do have some dispositions. No before I get beaten shitless, that doesn't mean women should be confined to the kitchen while big manly men go cut down trees, it just means you have to understand the reality of the situation.
    Did you skip the part where you learned that some genes aren't even activated unless there's a specific environment to trigger?
    Yeah, I guess you did.
    Yes we know biological males have XY chromosome and biological females have XX, hurr durr excepting when there is a chromosomal abnormality.
    edited for The Oboro Clause, also known as "sex, gender, and chromosomal identity are all separate axes"

    Oboro on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Hf-kun: Other than physical and hormonal dispositions, not really.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    HF-kunHF-kun __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    Oboro wrote: »
    HF-kun wrote: »
    How is gender equality forcing people into holes?
    Pretty pink princesses and softball coaches should be equal to effeminate tailors or lumberjacks.
    Saying children are genetically disposed to playing with Tonka trucks actually made me snort.
    Are you aware of how genes work?

    He may not, but I do (Just finishing a semester of genetics and molecular biology, not to mention already completing classes in cell biology, evolutionary biology, biophysics, cell and membrane physiology, etc, etc). I can say with confidence that the sexes do have some dispositions. No before I get beaten shitless, that doesn't mean women should be confined to the kitchen while big manly men go cut down trees, it just means you have to understand the reality of the situation.
    Did you skip the part where you learned that some genes aren't even activated unless there's a specific environment to trigger?
    Yeah, I guess you did.
    Yes we know biological males have XY chromosome and biological females have XX, hurr durr excepting when there is a chromosomal abnormality.
    edited for The Oboro Clause, also known as "sex, gender, and chromosomal identity are all separate axes"

    Only if you ask an English major with a Woman's Studies minor. They're much more closely linked than some would believe (This is referring to just XX and XY humans, individual's with more than two sex chromosomes gets into really murky territory).

    HF-kun on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    HF-kun wrote: »
    Oboro wrote: »
    HF-kun wrote: »
    How is gender equality forcing people into holes?
    Pretty pink princesses and softball coaches should be equal to effeminate tailors or lumberjacks.
    Saying children are genetically disposed to playing with Tonka trucks actually made me snort.
    Are you aware of how genes work?

    He may not, but I do (Just finishing a semester of genetics and molecular biology, not to mention already completing classes in cell biology, evolutionary biology, biophysics, cell and membrane physiology, etc, etc). I can say with confidence that the sexes do have some dispositions. No before I get beaten shitless, that doesn't mean women should be confined to the kitchen while big manly men go cut down trees, it just means you have to understand the reality of the situation.
    Did you skip the part where you learned that some genes aren't even activated unless there's a specific environment to trigger?
    Yeah, I guess you did.
    Yes we know biological males have XY chromosome and biological females have XX, hurr durr excepting when there is a chromosomal abnormality.
    edited for The Oboro Clause, also known as "sex, gender, and chromosomal identity are all separate axes"

    Only if you ask an English major with a Woman's Studies minor. They're much more closely linked than some would believe (This is referring to just XX and XY humans, individual's with more than two sex chromosomes gets into really murky territory).
    You're not going to say that people with Klinefelters or Turners are more likely to be murderers or whatever mistakenly held belief geneticists had about karyotypes in the 90's, are you?

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    My question is really whats the point of it all? We've kinda agreed that even if there are dispositions they're far from absolute. We also seem to agree that it'd be silly to tailor education to different sexes supposed strengths or discriminate based on them.

    So what does finding this stuff really teach us that's of use? If they are in fact biological factors they'll surface regardless of our social tailoring and if they are socially based then they'll change as social attitudes change.

    nexuscrawler on
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    Marty81Marty81 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    slowroll wrote: »
    there is more variation of talents in the sexes than between them.

    Can you say precisely what you mean by that, mathematically? I'm envisioning two clouds of points here, and I'm trying to figure out what it would mean for there to be more variation in each of the clouds than between the clouds.

    Marty81 on
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    HF-kunHF-kun __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    Certainly not. I'm saying people with an unusual number of chromosomes often blur the line of gender. Although this isn't always the case (Most XYY men aren't even aware they have an extra chromosome in the first place).

    HF-kun on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »

    Yeah, see, you're strawmanning here. I never said women have never accomplished anything in the sciences.

    Maybe you should actually read the OP, and if you did, work on your reading comprehension.
    this is the one part where you explain what you want to do, but nowhere do you explain how you would accomplish this.

    I don't know how. That's partly why I presented the question here.
    i don't get it. have you been to university? not every man is an engineer and not every woman is a sociologist.

    Yeah, but majority of engineers are males and majority of sociologists are females. Some of this is due to social conditioning, and we know that social conditioning generally reinforces genetic disposition.
    there is more variation of talents in the sexes than between them.

    Yes, but on average women are better at certain things than men, and vice versa. I'm not talking about individuals here.

    I mean hell, there are some women who are taller than men, but the fact stands that women in general are shorter than men. Why must we deny the possibility that a similar difference may exist between the way the male mind and the female mind works, or that these differences may be rather significant, at least much more so than our political correctness bias would let us find out and accept?
    And if you're wondering why the fuck there are so few females in technical disciplines, instead of dropping verbal diarrhea on us, try googling "Jade Raymond". That should answer it.

    So you're saying that the case of one person explains the case of everyone? That prejudice and social pressure is the only reason why there are so few women in technical fields?

    I see.
    he problem with this stuff is similar to most evo-pych stuff. These studies, while interesting, almost always ignore other cultures.

    Actually, there is quite a bit of research done across many different cultures. The whole "olol it ignores culture" may be true for the majority of bullshit evo-psych stuff, but not all of it.

    For instance, a study was done by David Buss of the University of Michigan, who asked a large sample of American students to rank the qualities they most preferred in a mate. Men said kindness, intelligence, beauty, and youth. Women said kindness, intelligence, wealth, and status.

    He was told that this may be the case in America, but it probably is not a universal facet of human nature.

    So he repeated the study in thirty-seven different samples from thirty-three countries, asking over a thousand people, and found the exact same result. Men pay more attention to youth and beauty, women to wealth and status.

    To which came this answer: of course women pay more attention to wealth because men control it. If women controlled wealth, they would not seek it in their spouses.

    So Buss looked again and found that women who make more money than the average woman pay more attention than average to the wealth of potential spouses, not less. High-earning women value the earning capacity of their husbands more, not less, than low-earning women. Even a survey of fifteen powerful leaders of the feminist movement revealed that they wanted still more powerful men(Buss, 1992, The Adapted Mind).

    Now what? I mean, the study showed, rather conclusively, that a significant difference in mate preference exists between men and women regardless of culture. Historical findings dating back to the the pre-agriculture era reinforce this fact, and so do studies of our primate cousins, gorillas and chimps, and of mammals and birds too.

    How much god damn evidence do we need before the urge to be scientifically correct overcomes the urge to be politically correct?

    ege02 on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    "we know that social conditioning generally reinforces genetic disposition."

    That's an awful big claim ege. Care to back it up with something?

    nexuscrawler on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Yeah, I don't think anyone has the urge to be scientifically wrong.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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