Unless you're able to execute them right there on the spot, I'm not seeing how the threat of capital punishment actually changes that mentality. Yes they do it because they think they can do it, and get away with it. They're not doing it because they're assuming they'll get the 'lighter' sentence of prison sodomy.
Maybe they're the people that commit a large proportion of the prison sodomy.
They are prepared for it.
As for death not working for a deterrent, it doesn't matter. If they deserve to die, they should die. Someone incapable of having enough respect for fellow human beings to not rape them deserves to die.
Violent attack rape should be punishable by the death penalty.
Why?
Because they deserve it? Because such an action shows a basic disregard and contempt for basic values of humanity?
How can they be said to deserve it? It's not like they chose to have a fucked up life or a chemical imbalance in their brains.
If someone shows contempt for basic values of humanity, get them off the streets to protect people, make sure they don't do it again and make sure others don't as well, but anything above and beyond that is just cruelty because it feels good.
Violent attack rape should be punishable by the death penalty.
Why?
Because they deserve it? Because such an action shows a basic disregard and contempt for basic values of humanity?
How can they be said to deserve it? It's not like they chose to have a fucked up life or a chemical imbalance in their brains.
If someone shows contempt for basic values of humanity, get them off the streets to protect people, make sure they don't do it again and make sure others don't as well, but anything above and beyond that is just cruelty because it feels good.
If it really is objectively verifiable that the thunderstorms in their brains made them chase down a woman, pull her clothes and undergarments off, ignore her somewhat apparent distress and violate her for the time it takes to finish their business, then yes, treatment is in order.
I think most people have normal brains though. That includes most rapists. You're using your brain when you work to physically restrain someone.
I think most people have normal brains though. That includes most rapists. You're using your brain when you work to physically restrain someone.
I'm not sure how it can be argued that anyone who rapes someone can be said to have a "normal brain", unless you're making a cynical reference to the number of rapes that occur.
Obviously something has gone wrong with them, caused them to behave aberrantly, be it internally or, again, externally with respect to their environment.
Violent attack rape should be punishable by the death penalty.
Why?
Because they deserve it? Because such an action shows a basic disregard and contempt for basic values of humanity?
We should create a list of things that show basic disregard and contempt for values of humanity. A of Americans would probably put homosexuality on that list. It would quickly show that it would be a ridiculous benchmark for execution. Since that makes no sense, it basically boils down to you thinking they deserve it, which doesn't really fall into the category of viable reasons.
Violent attack rape should be punishable by the death penalty.
Why?
Because they deserve it? Because such an action shows a basic disregard and contempt for basic values of humanity?
We should create a list of things that show basic disregard and contempt for values of humanity. A of Americans would probably put homosexuality on that list. It would quickly show that it would be a ridiculous benchmark for execution. Since that makes no sense, it basically boils down to you thinking they deserve it, which doesn't really fall into the category of viable reasons.
Just because some people have loopy ideas about what basic values of humanity are doesn't mean that some basic values of humanity don't exist.
I think most people have normal brains though. That includes most rapists. You're using your brain when you work to physically restrain someone.
I'm not sure how it can be argued that anyone who rapes someone can be said to have a "normal brain", unless you're making a cynical reference to the number of rapes that occur.
Obviously something has gone wrong with them, caused them to behave aberrantly, be it internally or, again, externally with respect to their environment.
Actually, no. Particularly in cases of gang rape, pretty much all the participants bar the ringleader tend to be psychologically normal. Peer group pressure in a misogynist culture can be a real bitch Date rapists are also usually pretty 'normal', they've just absorbed a cultural message that lets them think they 'deserve' sex in exchange for buying dinner. Its stuff like this that led me to the earlier statement that rehabilitation is very difficult in our current culture. There are just too many powerful memes out there that sabotage the process.
Also, and I know you don't want to think this Loren, but criminals aren't necessarily the victims of poor circumstance or broken brains. Some people are just plain fucking bad. I still don't support the death penalty, but I can see why people do.
Actually, no. Particularly in cases of gang rape, pretty much all the participants bar the ringleader tend to be psychologically normal. Peer group pressure in a misogynist culture can be a real bitch Date rapists are also usually pretty 'normal', they've just absorbed a cultural message that lets them think they 'deserve' sex in exchange for buying dinner.
Violent attack rape should be punishable by the death penalty.
Why?
Because they deserve it? Because such an action shows a basic disregard and contempt for basic values of humanity?
We should create a list of things that show basic disregard and contempt for values of humanity. A of Americans would probably put homosexuality on that list. It would quickly show that it would be a ridiculous benchmark for execution. Since that makes no sense, it basically boils down to you thinking they deserve it, which doesn't really fall into the category of viable reasons.
Just because some people have loopy ideas about what basic values of humanity are doesn't mean that some basic values of humanity don't exist.
I never said they don't exist, I said that 'showing a basic disregard and contempt for basic values of humanity' is an extremely vague and varying standard and by no means should we base our harshest form of punishment on it.
Edit: I also thought the OP was referring to child rape, not date or gang rape.
Actually, no. Particularly in cases of gang rape, pretty much all the participants bar the ringleader tend to be psychologically normal. Peer group pressure in a misogynist culture can be a real bitch Date rapists are also usually pretty 'normal', they've just absorbed a cultural message that lets them think they 'deserve' sex in exchange for buying dinner.
How are either of those not poor circumstances?
Well they kind of cease to be poor when they're the norm...
poor circumstances means growing up in a cupboard and having shoes thrown at you, not existing in a culture that has enough memes floating around to immunise one from those sorts of attitudes, and yet still opting for the bad ones.
Well they kind of cease to be poor when they're the norm...
poor circumstances means growing up in a cupboard and having shoes thrown at you, not existing in a culture that has enough memes floating around to immunise one from those sorts of attitudes, and yet still opting for the bad ones.
Sorry, had a communications breakdown. I interpreted "poor" to mean anything that results in an adverse outcome. These circumstances can be anything from shitty parents and unhealthy peer groups, to having had a dog that peed on your bed all the time.
Because misogynist cultures don't overpower the human brain's capacity for independent thought?
Sure they do. So do cultures of all kinds. Its an uncomfortable thought, I know, but... tough.
Exactly. And my issue with inflicting a punishment on someone because that person "deserves it" is akin to holding a person responsible for who his or her parents were.
ah, k. Yeah, I tend to restrict 'poor circumstances' to actual cases of abuse/poverty/dumbass relatives/etc
I think "abuse" and the like may simply be an arbitrary level we put on shitty circumstances, after which they become intolerable and we feel compelled to act to stop them.
Plenty of bad shit goes down that slips under our radar, either because it's unseen or because it's too mild for us to be bothered to care.
Because misogynist cultures don't overpower the human brain's capacity for independent thought?
Sure they do. So do cultures of all kinds. Its an uncomfortable thought, I know, but... tough.
Exactly. And my issue with inflicting a punishment on someone because that person "deserves it" is akin to holding a person responsible for who his or her parents were.
Well then why punish anyone if all we are is the sum of our circumstances? Sorry, but our choices and actions define who we are, not the other way around. A disadvantaged background should be a mitigating factor towards sentencing, not a defence.
But, that said, the death penalty is totally unconscionable on moral grounds, and highly dubious on legal grounds, so fuck it.
Also - countdown till Ketherial appears and starts bring'n the Old Testament mentality to this thread: 10... 9...
Well then why punish anyone if all we are is the sum of our circumstances? Sorry, but our choices and actions define who we are, not the other way around. A disadvantaged background should be a mitigating factor towards sentencing, not a defence.
As I said earlier in the thread, to prevent future aberrant behavior from the individual and to prevent others from committing similar acts.
Our choices and actions are the result of our brains and our environments, and to hold us responsible for those would be like holding a robot responsible for its own malfunctions.
Our choices and actions are the result of our brains and our environments, and to hold us responsible for those would be like holding a robot responsible for its own malfunctions.
Our choices and actions are the result of our brains and our environments, and to hold us responsible for those would be like holding a robot responsible for its own malfunctions.
Yeah, like that printer out of office space.
Actually that's a perfect analogy. Our punishment of individuals because they "deserve" it is akin to the cathartic destruction of that printer. It's all about us, not about the offending individual.
Except that individual is a human being with the full range of human experience, so you should mentally replace the printer getting fucked up with the baseball bat with some kid who had an abusive father or a manipulative peer group.
At least once a week I hear or read about someone being released from prison after xx years after new evidence (typically DNA) has been uncovered and proves their innocence. Every system, no matter how good, has flaws. Capital punishment is an absolute solution in that there's no taking it back. Considering the number of people who are falsely convicted, which is simply due to human nature, there's no way I can support capital punishment. Additionally, maybe it's just me, but... the idea of spending my entire life locked in a box, facing the risk of rape/murder/whatever else at the hands of other prisoners, sounds like a much worse punishment than an execution.
We can always get a newer, better <human/printer> and this one is obvious acting up and damaged our other <human/electronic device>. Since these things are easily replaceable, and we dont want a malfunctioning <human/printer/blender> fucking up our other <human/printer/death star> lets just get rid of it. I mean sure we could put it in the closet for awhile in case our new <human/printer/Jello pudding tomahawk> breaks and we need a replacement in a hurry. Sure taking it out, dusting it off, and reintegrating it back into the network might work out will, but then again the <human/printer/lead paint taster> might spaz out and destroy an actually working valuable <human/printer/Tk421 why are you not at your post>
We are really just better off pulling the plug quickly and replacing it with something equally as replaceable except with a better record for not fucking up and ruining other more valuable <human/printer/Vera our very favoritist gun>
The threat of death isn't going to deter anyone that isn't deterred by spending decades in prison and being branded as a rapist. People commit rape because they either can't control themselves, they don't care about themselves, or they think they can get away with it.
Agreed. The idea of a deterrent is a bit silly.
Gentlemen, I suggest you learn something about risk assessment. I mean really, imagine some college kid has a girl passed out on his couch -- you really don't believe the fear that he will be put to death for taking advantage of her would enter into his calculus?
On the other side, if you make rape a capital offense, whats to stop that rapist from just killing his victim afterward? It's not like they can put him to death twice, and hey, he just eliminated the only witness. The death penalty for rape endangers rape victims further.
The threat of death isn't going to deter anyone that isn't deterred by spending decades in prison and being branded as a rapist. People commit rape because they either can't control themselves, they don't care about themselves, or they think they can get away with it.
Agreed. The idea of a deterrent is a bit silly.
Gentlemen, I suggest you learn something about risk assessment. I mean really, imagine some college kid has a girl passed out on his couch -- you really don't believe the fear that he will be put to death for taking advantage of her would enter into his calculus?
Not really, no. Especially with the conviction rate so low, but the thing is that criminals don't tend to think about consequences enough. That's why they're criminals.
If we could go back to earlier savepoints and redo shit, pretty much everything would be acceptable. It would be like punishing someone for going dark instead of light in KOTOR. I mean shit, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE USED FORCE LIGHTNING THAT MUCH
I saw an episode of house where they wiped someones memory. Why dont we do that? Then have them spend the rest of their life doing menial labor. Long as they maintain the 0.0% recidivism rate im happy.
I saw an episode of house where they wiped someones memory. Why dont we do that? Then have them spend the rest of their life doing menial labor. Long as they maintain the 0.0% recidivism rate im happy.
Yeah, in clinical trials that technology actually ended up frying people's brains.
You know by the same logic we should also wipe the memories of everyone involved in the matter. The rapist is indoctrinated to be a productive member of society, the victim doesn't recall it and no witnesses or confidants do either. Everyone's happy!
The threat of death isn't going to deter anyone that isn't deterred by spending decades in prison and being branded as a rapist. People commit rape because they either can't control themselves, they don't care about themselves, or they think they can get away with it.
Agreed. The idea of a deterrent is a bit silly.
Gentlemen, I suggest you learn something about risk assessment. I mean really, imagine some college kid has a girl passed out on his couch -- you really don't believe the fear that he will be put to death for taking advantage of her would enter into his calculus?
Not really, no. Especially with the conviction rate so low, but the thing is that criminals don't tend to think about consequences enough. That's why they're criminals.
Mmm, I think if we did start executing people for taking advantage of coeds, we'd start to see more than one significant behavioral change.
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The threat of death isn't going to deter anyone that isn't deterred by spending decades in prison and being branded as a rapist. People commit rape because they either can't control themselves, they don't care about themselves, or they think they can get away with it.
Agreed. The idea of a deterrent is a bit silly.
Gentlemen, I suggest you learn something about risk assessment. I mean really, imagine some college kid has a girl passed out on his couch -- you really don't believe the fear that he will be put to death for taking advantage of her would enter into his calculus?
Not really, no. Especially with the conviction rate so low, but the thing is that criminals don't tend to think about consequences enough. That's why they're criminals.
Mmm, I think if we did start executing people for taking advantage of coeds, we'd start to see more than one significant behavioral change.
Yeah, but nobody really wants more Natal(ee/ie?) Holloways clogging up our airwaves.
Who says we want to? Why feed and cloth violent offenders at great cost and great personal risk to the guards when we could simply shoot them. People are not an endangered species.
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Maybe they're the people that commit a large proportion of the prison sodomy.
They are prepared for it.
As for death not working for a deterrent, it doesn't matter. If they deserve to die, they should die. Someone incapable of having enough respect for fellow human beings to not rape them deserves to die.
How can they be said to deserve it? It's not like they chose to have a fucked up life or a chemical imbalance in their brains.
If someone shows contempt for basic values of humanity, get them off the streets to protect people, make sure they don't do it again and make sure others don't as well, but anything above and beyond that is just cruelty because it feels good.
If it really is objectively verifiable that the thunderstorms in their brains made them chase down a woman, pull her clothes and undergarments off, ignore her somewhat apparent distress and violate her for the time it takes to finish their business, then yes, treatment is in order.
I think most people have normal brains though. That includes most rapists. You're using your brain when you work to physically restrain someone.
I'm not sure how it can be argued that anyone who rapes someone can be said to have a "normal brain", unless you're making a cynical reference to the number of rapes that occur.
Obviously something has gone wrong with them, caused them to behave aberrantly, be it internally or, again, externally with respect to their environment.
We should create a list of things that show basic disregard and contempt for values of humanity. A of Americans would probably put homosexuality on that list. It would quickly show that it would be a ridiculous benchmark for execution. Since that makes no sense, it basically boils down to you thinking they deserve it, which doesn't really fall into the category of viable reasons.
Just because some people have loopy ideas about what basic values of humanity are doesn't mean that some basic values of humanity don't exist.
Actually, no. Particularly in cases of gang rape, pretty much all the participants bar the ringleader tend to be psychologically normal. Peer group pressure in a misogynist culture can be a real bitch
Also, and I know you don't want to think this Loren, but criminals aren't necessarily the victims of poor circumstance or broken brains. Some people are just plain fucking bad. I still don't support the death penalty, but I can see why people do.
How are either of those not poor circumstances?
I never said they don't exist, I said that 'showing a basic disregard and contempt for basic values of humanity' is an extremely vague and varying standard and by no means should we base our harshest form of punishment on it.
Edit: I also thought the OP was referring to child rape, not date or gang rape.
Independent from what?
Well they kind of cease to be poor when they're the norm...
poor circumstances means growing up in a cupboard and having shoes thrown at you, not existing in a culture that has enough memes floating around to immunise one from those sorts of attitudes, and yet still opting for the bad ones.
Sorry, had a communications breakdown. I interpreted "poor" to mean anything that results in an adverse outcome. These circumstances can be anything from shitty parents and unhealthy peer groups, to having had a dog that peed on your bed all the time.
I think "abuse" and the like may simply be an arbitrary level we put on shitty circumstances, after which they become intolerable and we feel compelled to act to stop them.
Plenty of bad shit goes down that slips under our radar, either because it's unseen or because it's too mild for us to be bothered to care.
Well then why punish anyone if all we are is the sum of our circumstances? Sorry, but our choices and actions define who we are, not the other way around. A disadvantaged background should be a mitigating factor towards sentencing, not a defence.
But, that said, the death penalty is totally unconscionable on moral grounds, and highly dubious on legal grounds, so fuck it.
Also - countdown till Ketherial appears and starts bring'n the Old Testament mentality to this thread: 10... 9...
Damn right it did. And modern secular values have condemned that time honored practice as being barbaric. WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED!
As I said earlier in the thread, to prevent future aberrant behavior from the individual and to prevent others from committing similar acts.
Our choices and actions are the result of our brains and our environments, and to hold us responsible for those would be like holding a robot responsible for its own malfunctions.
Yeah, like that printer out of office space.
Actually that's a perfect analogy. Our punishment of individuals because they "deserve" it is akin to the cathartic destruction of that printer. It's all about us, not about the offending individual.
Except that individual is a human being with the full range of human experience, so you should mentally replace the printer getting fucked up with the baseball bat with some kid who had an abusive father or a manipulative peer group.
We are really just better off pulling the plug quickly and replacing it with something equally as replaceable except with a better record for not fucking up and ruining other more valuable <human/printer/Vera our very favoritist gun>
Gentlemen, I suggest you learn something about risk assessment. I mean really, imagine some college kid has a girl passed out on his couch -- you really don't believe the fear that he will be put to death for taking advantage of her would enter into his calculus?
On the other side, if you make rape a capital offense, whats to stop that rapist from just killing his victim afterward? It's not like they can put him to death twice, and hey, he just eliminated the only witness. The death penalty for rape endangers rape victims further.
If we could go back to earlier savepoints and redo shit, pretty much everything would be acceptable. It would be like punishing someone for going dark instead of light in KOTOR. I mean shit, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE USED FORCE LIGHTNING THAT MUCH
D:D:D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
D:D:D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3D:<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
I hereby throw my support behind this medical miracle, all hail the anti rape bot 2000.
Mmm, I think if we did start executing people for taking advantage of coeds, we'd start to see more than one significant behavioral change.