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Begging, reasons and consequences
Rhan9
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Begging is a phenomenon common in most major cities around the globe. As of late, the number of beggars in countries like Finland have been increasing. Nordic countries have a fairly hostile environment, which has limited the flow of beggars into them for some time. As the conditions in places like the Roma communities in Romania are at nearly third-world standard, with little literacy, few jobs, and bad living conditions, emigrating to another country to beg becomes more and more attractive as an option. These people live for around 3 EUR a day, and can make more than 20 EUR a day by begging. The numbers given by beggars are 20-25 EUR, while those given by store owners where the beggars exchange the coins to notes give amounts between 50-80 EUR. The point is, that they can make far more money by begging abroad, than by working(if they get a job at all) in their own country.
There is an article dealing with this issue on the website of the largest newspaper in Finland: Here
Now, the culture in countries like Finland has virtually no experience with begging. The recent influx of beggars has caught the people off-guard, and when beggars ask people for money, they seem to give it. People aren't accustomed to begging, and the beggars make a lot of money. There are no laws against begging, and as long as the beggars don't abuse the Finnish social security system, or commit crimes, they can't be deported. As the word spreads, the influx of beggars can be expected to increase. People that give rather freely, and little official interference are attractive features in a country for a beggar. The same happened to Norway earlier, and from all the other cities in Europe it can be expected that increased crime will follow the beggars. As people become more accustomed to begging, the amount of money the beggars get decreases. This has led to beggars harassing especially older people for alms, as they tend to be more sympathetic with beggars. Beggars in front of shops has the effect of reducing business for the shop-owners, as people do not wish to confront the begging. Shop owners have been complaining of some beggars doing this.
The greatest issue I have with begging is the tendency of some beggars to attempt to garner the sympathy of passersby with small children. Frequently these children have to stay outside for extended periods, inadequately fed and clothed. Now, the weather in Finland has a tendency to be wet, windy and cold for most of the year. For most of the year, the temperatures don't go above 10 degrees centigrade(50 degrees Fahrenheit). During the winter, the temperatures usually range between -20 and 0 degrees centigrade (-4 and 32 degrees Fahrenheit), in addition to raining sleet and snow.
In places like Thailand, the beggars are usually working under different gangs and organized crime. Giving money to these beggars directly aids the crime in the area. As the number of beggars increases, evidence of organization usually emerges. The beggars are assigned different posts around the city, and at the end of the day the gains are pooled(whether this money is then distributed, or if it goes to the pocket of someone is not certain).
These people come from shitty living conditions, but do not tend to have intentions of settling down and getting a job. Some do come to stay: They come, beg for a while, get a job, form ties with groups relating to them(such as various Roma organizations), get an place to live, start to learn the language and start being a productive member of the society. Some people don't. These people keep begging, semi-enforcing old people to give them money, and keep pissing me off by getting in my way, trying to get what little money I have, and subject their children to horrid conditions. The best way to discourage begging is by not giving, but apparently a lot of people don't realize that. It also annoys me that they seem to target older people who already live on limited pensions. Many beggars are perfectly capable of working, but feign disabilities in order to be pitied.
I understand that they come from bad conditions, but I'm a little low on sympathy when they come to ruin my day by harassing me when I'm walking in the city.
The officials are at a loss how to deal with them, as it is a new phenomenon. Have these issues been solved elsewhere, and more importantly: How successfully?
I've made this thread in hopes of initiating discussion, and hearing the opinions of others regarding the begging phenomenon in other countries as well. What do you think about beggars, and what should be done with them?
tl;dr Beggars. What do you think about them?
There is an article dealing with this issue on the website of the largest newspaper in Finland: Here
Now, the culture in countries like Finland has virtually no experience with begging. The recent influx of beggars has caught the people off-guard, and when beggars ask people for money, they seem to give it. People aren't accustomed to begging, and the beggars make a lot of money. There are no laws against begging, and as long as the beggars don't abuse the Finnish social security system, or commit crimes, they can't be deported. As the word spreads, the influx of beggars can be expected to increase. People that give rather freely, and little official interference are attractive features in a country for a beggar. The same happened to Norway earlier, and from all the other cities in Europe it can be expected that increased crime will follow the beggars. As people become more accustomed to begging, the amount of money the beggars get decreases. This has led to beggars harassing especially older people for alms, as they tend to be more sympathetic with beggars. Beggars in front of shops has the effect of reducing business for the shop-owners, as people do not wish to confront the begging. Shop owners have been complaining of some beggars doing this.
The greatest issue I have with begging is the tendency of some beggars to attempt to garner the sympathy of passersby with small children. Frequently these children have to stay outside for extended periods, inadequately fed and clothed. Now, the weather in Finland has a tendency to be wet, windy and cold for most of the year. For most of the year, the temperatures don't go above 10 degrees centigrade(50 degrees Fahrenheit). During the winter, the temperatures usually range between -20 and 0 degrees centigrade (-4 and 32 degrees Fahrenheit), in addition to raining sleet and snow.
In places like Thailand, the beggars are usually working under different gangs and organized crime. Giving money to these beggars directly aids the crime in the area. As the number of beggars increases, evidence of organization usually emerges. The beggars are assigned different posts around the city, and at the end of the day the gains are pooled(whether this money is then distributed, or if it goes to the pocket of someone is not certain).
These people come from shitty living conditions, but do not tend to have intentions of settling down and getting a job. Some do come to stay: They come, beg for a while, get a job, form ties with groups relating to them(such as various Roma organizations), get an place to live, start to learn the language and start being a productive member of the society. Some people don't. These people keep begging, semi-enforcing old people to give them money, and keep pissing me off by getting in my way, trying to get what little money I have, and subject their children to horrid conditions. The best way to discourage begging is by not giving, but apparently a lot of people don't realize that. It also annoys me that they seem to target older people who already live on limited pensions. Many beggars are perfectly capable of working, but feign disabilities in order to be pitied.
I understand that they come from bad conditions, but I'm a little low on sympathy when they come to ruin my day by harassing me when I'm walking in the city.
The officials are at a loss how to deal with them, as it is a new phenomenon. Have these issues been solved elsewhere, and more importantly: How successfully?
I've made this thread in hopes of initiating discussion, and hearing the opinions of others regarding the begging phenomenon in other countries as well. What do you think about beggars, and what should be done with them?
tl;dr Beggars. What do you think about them?
Rhan9 on
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This doesn't get rid of beggars, but it does make it less of an issue. I remember being surprised when I ran into a massive amount of beggars on some southern European streets.
There's several types of beggars, some are really getting through hardship, others are simply scammers. People who are working honestly to pay their bills shouldn't be put in a dilemna as wether they should give or not give. While giving some change to someone in need is very noble, giving it to someone who just pretend is just a waste, so don't do it solely for your own peace of mind! Giving your money to criminals is a disservice to society. If you really want to help, give to some non-profit organizations who should know who they're dealing with.
Also, if everyone is concerned, then why should we intervene individualy in this matter? That's why we have governments, don't we?
Ever since then I find it so hard to trust beggars
He shuts his wallet and makes to walk past the beggar. The beggar stops my boyfriend and says 'I want more.' Well, that was obviously a bit of a shock, and my boyfriend said 'What? I'm not giving you any more.' The beggar replied 'I want all your money.'
In the space of a couple of minutes, you've gone from an innocent beggar asking for a bit of spare change, to a daylight mugging. My boyfriend says no, and makes to walk away again. At which point, the beggar pulls out what looked like a rusty bread knife, and drags by boyfriend down a path into a more secluded area. Thankfully, my boyfriend managed to fight off the guy and knock the knife out of his hand. He ran back onto the main path going through the park, and noticed a girl about to walk down the path he had just come from. Although probably scary for the girl, my boyfriend grabbed her, shouted that there was a guy with a knife down that path, and they fled the park together.
I found this out after coming out of the shower to be faced with two police officers in our lounge (our bathroom was just off the kitchen back then... aaah, student housing!).
Now, this is probably a rare case, and it didn't take place in a city centre. Was probably a bit silly of him to stop and give money to the guy in the first place, especially in that park (known as Stabby Rapey Park... past sunset it turns into a rather horrible place, and I myself was once mugged by a gang of youths just passing by it one night, not even going through it).
What I think is a good idea in terms of beggars, is rather than have to have licsenses and all that, there are schemes going on in Britain which give beggars a way of earning money for themselves through the sale of a magazine called The Big Issue. Also, in Manchester anyway, there are donation pots here and there around the shopping areas, asking that instead of giving money directly to beggars, you put the money in the pot, and it will go directly to things like soup kitchens and hostels where the beggars can get food and shelter. I think some of the money goes to charities who help get beggars back into regular jobs and such. Basically, these means are much more preferable to giving directly, as you know your money isn't going to be going on things like drugs. We still have beggars, but we have many more Big Issue sellers now, which I see as a good thing.
*Thanks Thanatos!
As far as making it illegal I don't really care, I've got no problem just ignoring panhandlers, except for the ones that read your mail, then knock on your door at nine at night and use your first name like they know you, or someone living with you, and ask for money. I've physically threatened those people with firearms before. They don't come back now.
To me it's not a sign that the economy is crashing or anything, it's just some people don't want to work a normal job, or can't, because all of their earned money goes into booze or drugs.
When visiting Santa Monica though it was kind of shocking to be surrounded by such clean and affluent stores and still have someone every block begging.
I live in a fairly small city, which has a small amount of beggars on the major streets. Mostly regulars, if you walk by the same place everyday you grow to recognize most of them. A lot of these people are pretty fucked up in one way or another, addicts of some sort, disabled in some way, some sort of mental issue is extremely common.
Now, I take issue with calling begging a scam, unless the person outright lies to you (which does happen). But these people are sitting outside for long periods of time, often in very poor weather, asking for whatever spare change people have and getting a lot of disdain on the way. This seems like a rather poor scam for the most part, they have a shittier day than I would at work and make less money. Its not like they're taking the easy way out by not having a job, quite the opposite.
I used to give to beggers a fair amount, but I dont really anymore, for two reasons.
1) I discovered that you could live with pretty well zero money. Between soup kitchens, food banks, dumpster diving and shelters (or crashing on a couch) you can sustain yourself quite well without working or begging, or at least you can in Canada. This makes me less inclined to give, because I know that for example, these people are not starving.
2) As mentioned, a lot of them are alcoholics and/or drug addicts. How well will they spend this money? The addicts will just use it to buy their drug of choice. I once saw a guy walk by a car that had its window open, and ask for some change for a coffee. The people in the car said no, and the guy (who asked this without even slowing down his stride) walked right into the liquour store that the car was parked outside of. No more money for him.
I also think though that making it illegal is foolish. It doesn't solve anything, at least around here. The people who are beggers are not suddenly going to turn into regular working people if begging is made illegal. If you don't want to give someone money, then don't, its as simple as that.
We have the newspaper thing too, which I like. Another thing to do, if you really want to help without giving money they might spend on booze or drugs, is to give them some food. Like, I have often handed someone the banana or half sandwich out of my lunch on my way past, and bought someone a cup of soup - they've always been really appreciative, and they're usually pretty nice people to talk to, who have just gone through shitty times. But maybe we just get really high quality beggars in Dane County?
Hi5!
The situation is a little different with immigrant beggars, at least in Finland. Due to some quirks in the legal system, they can't be deported if they don't abuse the Finnish social security, or commit crimes. If they started relying on the systems in place, they'd be encouraged to find a job, and if they kept leeching off the system without trying to improve the situation, they could be deported for lacking citizenship and hence only draining society's resources. However, some of these people apparently have no intention of doing anything else than begging, hence the problems of dealing with them.
You need to work on shittier weather.
It only works for so long. It kept begging at a minimum in the Nordic countries until relatively recently. Doesn't seem to do its job anymore.
They need to experience different types of bad weather, send all of the beggars to the southeast US so they can beg during some tornados and then they won't beg anymore. We'll send all of ours to very cold locations so they can freeze their asses off
I can't really comment on that, being that I've never visited US. I suppose there's a shitload of them? Thailand(Bangkok to be precise) at least has them every 3 meters. Warm environments seem to have more beggars than the ones where they're at risk of hypothermia. (Big surprise)
The best in Milwaukee was the day a guy in a shitty car stopped and asked for money for gas, I think I gave him a dollar, those guys down there had some gumption.
I realized at one point that when I didn't get them any money I'd always say "No, I'm sorry". I started to think, why am I sorry, why should I be sorry I'm not going to give them money. I started saying just "No" and would continue on my way. They seemed to pester me less after the initial approach then before.
Ugh, tell me about it. I don't know which is worse, San Francisco or L.A.
They have these fancy papers with a little sob story on them, usually some family member needing money for surgery or along those lines. They walk down the train car handing out the notes, and then back again picking them up and collecting money, and then go to the next train car during stops.
Now imagine this on an industrialized scale across the entire subway.
Once I had some girl ask me for money for a toilet, so I gave her 5 SEK (80 cents or something). Then she walked to the next guy and kept asking. Yeah, didn't fall for that one again.
That's your own fault because you crazy foreigners charge money to use a toilet.....
edit:
Edit: Food is a good idea too.
Santa Monica is a haven for the homeless mostly because they are more lenient law wise than LA.
Ludicrous!
That being said, whenever I visit a major city I usually set aside $5-$10-$20 to give to someone whom I'm fairly certain is a real bum/beggar. If they aren't, then they've "swindled" me out of money I've set aside for real people in need anyways.
At the very least I get a warm fuzzy feeling of doing something nice.
My panhandler story:
While back, guy comes into the gym I'm in, and starts asking the instructors directly for money (the beggar had some real balls). With me standing right next to him he tells his story about 17 years USMC semper fi and how he just got out 3 days ago and just needs a little cash ($50) until his VA disability money starts coming in. He must've gotten money because he started hanging out in the parking lot asking anyone who approached the doors.
One day I'm pulling out of that parking lot, and the fucker had started running up behind my car nearly getting himself killed. He starts asking why I wasn't feeling generous when I first saw him, and I give him my standard answer. He responds with, "oh, it's because you don't like black people, do you?" Wrong answer. I tell him to fuck off and I get out of there. Since that point I've heard a number of people say he's been harassing them with the same story (just got out 3 days ago!) for big bills, even inside of grocery stores, and he's even seen me probably a half dozen times around town and tried to come up to beg from me again (maybe we all look alike to him). I just quickly move into the nearest populated building/area and ignore him.
racist.....
: )
I used to live in the Philippines and the poverty there is much worse. In comparison, the homeless here are positively wealthy. Everyone wears decent, sturdy clothing, looks well fed and healthy, and rely on the generosity of well meaning college liberals. Between food shelters, homeless shelters, charity events and the weather the homeless are not in any real danger of survival. I remember looking at one beggar on a highway ramp and noticing his boots were better than mine, his clothes were washed and clean, and he had a nice looking watch.
When I was home in Dallas over breaks I would bus over to friends houses and other places because I didn't have a car. I'd get a lot of people asking me for a dollar to ride the DART bus or light rail. Usually I would just get a day pass for my travels, so I'd just hand it to them and go on. If they really did need to get somewhere, then they could do so for free the rest of the day.
I have friends that in the spring will dress really dirty, stop showering for a week, and then head down to state street and make $10 to $20 an hour just begging. They'll do this instead of a job because they get to sit in the fresh air, watch the college girls, and just do what they want. Most of the beggars down there are looking for drug money or just extra money to spend since theres a a soup kitchen and shelter just right around the corner they could go to.
Just asked my wife, who spent a summer on state street after high school, and her exact words are "Once I saw one of them get taco bell, but thats cause he had the munchies like a mo fo and it was after the church stopped serving food." Oh, and apparently cigarettes and condoms were purchased, but the condoms weren't so important.
Edit: And yes, our beggars are usually very nice people, but only because the police force them to be this way. As long as they aren't offensive or get in people's way, the police will look the other way. If the beggar starts to block state street traffic or become a nuisance the police will load the beggar into their car, drive somewhere and drop the beggar off. Sometimes S Park St, other times down by hilldale. Close enough for the beggar to get back, but far enough to make it a hassle. They can't take them to jail as, for some of the beggars, that would be their perfect home. 3 meals a day and a warm place to sleep.
They go to the main office for "The Big Issue", get the papers and sell them in and around London.
I like this approach a little bit better than just begging, but still it's not that much better.
I personally haven't run into many problems with beggars on State Street or anything like that, but I'm also probably only down there once a month or so (and more often in the fall or spring than summer).
As a rule, I don't give any money to beggars. I don't know how they're going to spend it and my money would be better used funding a charity to help the homeless than giving it to them when they may spend it on booze or drugs.
Feel free to add me on whatever network, it's always more fun to play with people than alone