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Tired of the Big 2 and thier crap? Another Rant...
Jessie Garrett
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
You know I was posting about in another topic and before I knew it started ranting again. A response was posted saying how "he" is gonna try to pick up more Indy and Dark horse titles (mentioning Usuagi Yogimbo and Star Wars) but how his comic shop doesn't stock alot of them.
-I decided to cut and paste my response post below-
>>>Yeah, I try to stock a bunch of Indy stuff, but the thing is most doesn't sell. Funny you mention Star Wars. Dave Ross penciler in Star Wars: Dark Times actually is the guest artist for the first issue of CONTRACT. Him and his wife are just wonderful people.
It's some good stuff out there but so many people are just "comfortable" with the big 2 that they don't want to take a risk with something new. And thats kinda the problem. We keep reading this ... swill and then saying "Thanks can I have some more?" Now I'm not saying all Indy stuff is good, nor am I saying all mainstream is bad. But hey its just hard to get attention sometimes even when you are putting out a high quality book when you are in essence competing with stuff that is hyped everywhere like OMD, WW Hulk, Countdown etc.
I mean Marvel and DC don't need the hype like an Indy does but to get people talking about an Indy is like pulling teeth. Readers want you to prove that you have a quality book and one that will last BUT the only way you are gonna have a quality long lasting book is if you get those sales or are willing or able to sink MAJOR money into a project with no real hope of a return.
I HATE this OMD fiasco. I hope that people will take that 4 bucks they were gonna put down on Spidey (AND DAMN IT I'M A HUGE SPIDEY FAN!!!!) and instead pick up an Indy and give it a try.<<<
You know as much as we complain and moan, the Big 2 really don't care. They do what they want and to hell with you fan boy! Their attitude seems to be getting more and more along the lines of "If you don't buy our book so what."
I've noticed a disturbing trend and this translates to movies and TV as well. The statement of "What do you expect Yellow Spandex" in the first X-men movie is a big "Piss off Fanboy! Comics are for idiots and we are trying to make a serious movie" Yet what was the plot? Magneto uses a "ray gun" that uses his power of MAGNETISM to turn all the world leaders to Mutants"
A recent episode of Smallville concerns the making of a "Warrior Angel movie" (a superhero comic in the Smallville series). In this comic the girlfriend of WA gets killed, the script changes it to WA saving her. Well the Fans are outraged, one so much so that he tries to sabotages the movie and have the actress actually killed in the scene.
The entire episode reaked of "Ha ha Comic fans are freaks! And take this crap way to serious"
Sorry getting off topic...
A Indy needs every sale they can get and when you write a fan letter to them believe you me they appreciate the Hell out of it!!! They STUDY every praise and complaint. If you really want have a "say" in what is happening in a comic pick up something Indy that strikes your fancy and stick with them, write them, you can bet your boots they will pay attention!"
-I decided to cut and paste my response post below-
>>>Yeah, I try to stock a bunch of Indy stuff, but the thing is most doesn't sell. Funny you mention Star Wars. Dave Ross penciler in Star Wars: Dark Times actually is the guest artist for the first issue of CONTRACT. Him and his wife are just wonderful people.
It's some good stuff out there but so many people are just "comfortable" with the big 2 that they don't want to take a risk with something new. And thats kinda the problem. We keep reading this ... swill and then saying "Thanks can I have some more?" Now I'm not saying all Indy stuff is good, nor am I saying all mainstream is bad. But hey its just hard to get attention sometimes even when you are putting out a high quality book when you are in essence competing with stuff that is hyped everywhere like OMD, WW Hulk, Countdown etc.
I mean Marvel and DC don't need the hype like an Indy does but to get people talking about an Indy is like pulling teeth. Readers want you to prove that you have a quality book and one that will last BUT the only way you are gonna have a quality long lasting book is if you get those sales or are willing or able to sink MAJOR money into a project with no real hope of a return.
I HATE this OMD fiasco. I hope that people will take that 4 bucks they were gonna put down on Spidey (AND DAMN IT I'M A HUGE SPIDEY FAN!!!!) and instead pick up an Indy and give it a try.<<<
You know as much as we complain and moan, the Big 2 really don't care. They do what they want and to hell with you fan boy! Their attitude seems to be getting more and more along the lines of "If you don't buy our book so what."
I've noticed a disturbing trend and this translates to movies and TV as well. The statement of "What do you expect Yellow Spandex" in the first X-men movie is a big "Piss off Fanboy! Comics are for idiots and we are trying to make a serious movie" Yet what was the plot? Magneto uses a "ray gun" that uses his power of MAGNETISM to turn all the world leaders to Mutants"
A recent episode of Smallville concerns the making of a "Warrior Angel movie" (a superhero comic in the Smallville series). In this comic the girlfriend of WA gets killed, the script changes it to WA saving her. Well the Fans are outraged, one so much so that he tries to sabotages the movie and have the actress actually killed in the scene.
The entire episode reaked of "Ha ha Comic fans are freaks! And take this crap way to serious"
Sorry getting off topic...
A Indy needs every sale they can get and when you write a fan letter to them believe you me they appreciate the Hell out of it!!! They STUDY every praise and complaint. If you really want have a "say" in what is happening in a comic pick up something Indy that strikes your fancy and stick with them, write them, you can bet your boots they will pay attention!"
Jessie Garrett on
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No, it was a homage to the comic costumes.
Your entire post reeks of "I take this crap way too seriously."
Yes.
Let's face it, the X-Men outfits were a lot better than they could've turned out if they'd gone all "classic comics".
Anyways, I'm sure a lot of us here have no problems reading indie books.
Next, what is indy? Are Vertigo comics indy? You don't lump in Image with Marvel and DC, so you must be claiming they are indy, I take it? Dark Horse must be considered indy then, but they have a book in the top 10 every month in Buffy, so it doesn't sound so indy to me. If a book is written by Brian K Vaughan or Joss Whedon or Mark Millar, is it still indy? You would do well to distinguish what is indy and what isn't before making a giant rant or topic on the subject because you just called Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Sandman and numerous other books "crap" in my eyes.
Also, I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. You talk about Star Wars comics at one point and then go off on a tangent about Smallville, a fairly popular teen drama that is only marginally related to comics from everything I've seen of it. Smallville is a DC / Warner Bros property and about as mainstream as you can get. Same with X-Men movies. Why didn't you discuss V for Vendetta, which still isn't all that obscure and 'indy' if you ask me, but a far better example if you are talking about indy comics.
Finally, how are DC and Marvel in any way affecting indy comics? They don't muscle them out or demand comic shops not stock those books if they want to keep getting theirs. Many indy books are highly successful and many are utter failures. Just because they are mainstream (as far as a comic can be mainstream I guess) and sell well doesn't mean Marvel and DC are in any way limiting or hurting an indy book.
If anything, Marvel and DC serve to introduce people to comics and get them more interested in indy books. I have rarely heard of people going into a comic shop for the first time looking for an Atomic Robo or Suburban Glamour or even Vertigo books like Y or something like Fables. They go in looking for Spider-Man and Batman and so on. They usually expand to other Marvel or DC titles looking for other books of interest. Eventually they get into back issues or classic storylines like DKR. Eventually they reach out and start trying non-superhero or, at least, non-Marvel and DC stuff, like Invincible or Spawn or wahtever.
It is a very methodical approach and I've seen many comic fans go down that route where they start with Spider-man and end up reading Vertigo and other creator owned books, which may or may not be indy. If anything is hurting the indy market, it is marketing.
There's a new craze these days, it's called the internet. You can advertise for free by simply making a blog and doing some random commenting on other comic blogs and forums. Not spam of course, but simple signatures with links to the comics' page. With al ittle effort, they could make a much bigger impact than just sending a solicit to Previews and hoping for the best. Free pages online or even entire issues readily available. Indy titles need to get on the internet, approach online reviewers and sites like Newsarama and try to get reviews and free issues (not pages) out there for people to try their books.
I know I'm not going through a Previews and picking Random Indy Book #143228 and getting my shop to order it in for $3.50 or whatever it costs when I have no idea what it is, there's no websites or images of the thing and I've never heard of the author.
Blaming Marvel and DC for expanding the indy market and bringing the new people in that eventually make their way to indy books is a retarded thing to do. You can dislike their books, their stories, their policies, etc, but don't insult other readers that enjoy their books, grew up with their characters and are more than happy to put out money for that entertainment.
Excellent point my friend, which is why I said the "Indy title" needs the support. If nobody picks it up how can it be expected to do well? But I'm not saying every Indy book is AWESOME and all mainstream suck.
No a HOMAGE is a praise bestowed onto something that came before, that was said with a sneer and disdain in the voice thereby making it an insult.
Since I'm a graduate of the Joe Kubert School, opened my own comic shop and am putting out my own comic. Yeah I do take comics seriously.
PREVIEW HERE: http://firstsalvo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160
Yes I am
PREVIEW HERE: http://firstsalvo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160
Not enough to avoid severe overgeneralization though I see.
Have you worked for Marvel or DC? Are you in their meetings and talk to everyone there? Then you can't say they don't care. Tell me, if you care so much about indies, why don't you stock them and try to push them more? Oh, that's right, because you're running a business, just like every other company is.
I'm sorry, but your whole post and attitude comes out more like "Hey! I have an indy book coming out! Drop those other books and get mine"
Okay, even if it was an insult (which it wasn't), so what? The costumes were/are ridiculous and would look terrible in live-action. Look at any cosplayer.
So this rant is a roundabout way of convincing me to buy your product?
Marvel and DC have the advantage of stability, history, and a shared universe that provide familiarity and greater reason to invest time and money in their comics. I'm sorry, but as an indie creator, if you want to get readers, you have to be significantly better to break into the market. Doing writing and art that's at the same level as the average DC or Marvel comic isn't going to cut it, not if you want to survive. You can't blame your potential readers for liking what they like, or question their tastes, you just need to produce a better product. Good things will always rise to the top and everything else will sink. Instead of asking us why we patronize the Big 2, ask yourself what you can learn about the success of the big 2. Look at what DC and Marvel do right and try to do those things, and look at what they do wrong and avoid the same.
On a semi-related note, I think I spend about $10 to $15 a month on non Marvel and DC comics. In fact, as soon as Contract gets solicited, I plan to add it to my pull list. All of these titles I added because I got a preview and the preview had a good hook that got me interested. Focus on getting your story together, get some pages for preview, and make sure that it's the best hook you can put out there. I'm looking to buy good comics and I could care less who publishes them.
NO, Thats not what I said at all. What was ment was "Are you tired by the Big 2 and there seeming lack of interest toward what we the readers say" but that title seems a bit long...
I was making a comment toward the Big 2 but what do you consider Indy? Anything that has poor sales or no big names attached? And I didn't say all mainstream books are crap just as I didn't say all Indies are good. What i did say is that it seems the Big 2 don't listen to the fans where a small press publisher is MUCH more likely to.
My tangent regarding Smallville was this "attitude" that all comic fans are these crazed geeks and its like they don't seem to appreciate that WE got them to where they are. Just show us some respect.
Yes that is true. BUT at the same when you start explaining something like OMD or Countdown to a customer usually they just shake their head and move on.
I love how it sounds so easy. But what many fail to realize is that most of that is just shouting into empty space. And having entire issues ready online? If you have a issue online that you make no return on, your out of pocket for the artist, the colorist, letterer etc. So you are already in the hole, then advertising. It all adds up. And you haven't seen any return yet. How much do people think a publisher makes on each issue of a sale?
You have good points in there too:
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=130647&highlight=dangers+dozen
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=130794&highlight=dangers+dozen
http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=006944
http://www.indiecomicsnetwork.com/podcast/p2_articleid/38
http://comicnews.info/?p=1199
http://afirstsalvo.blogspot.com/2007/12/dangers-dozen-1-in-stores-december-5th.html
http://www.jazmaonline.com/interviews/interviews2008.asp?intID=1
http://www.jazmaonline.com/interviews/interviews2008.asp?intID=2
http://www.brokenfrontier.com/reviews/details.php?id=1646
http://www.brokenfrontier.com/reviews/details.php?id=1697
http://www.firstsalvo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=138
A few places Dangers Dozen is mentioned online.
Why not?
If you see a solicit in previews and the art looks cool and/or the blurbpeaks your interest somewhat Give it a try.
PREVIEW HERE: http://firstsalvo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160
I get your point. And I am NOT saying that Marvel/DC should be dropped and don't buy them, far from it. But more and more we seem to get characters not acting how they are supposed to, conflicting stories, lack of continuity etc. I buy a ton of Marvel and DC!
I'm not asking why we patronize the big 2. I know why, as your point above state. As I said so many people are just "comfortable" with them that they don't want to take a risk with something new. And thats kinda the problem. Readers want you to prove that you have a quality book and one that will last BUT the only way you are gonna have a quality long lasting book is if you get those sales or are willing or able to sink MAJOR MAJOR money into a project with no real hope of a return.
Thats awesome!
And THANK YOU for that!!!
Great attitude and hopefully there are allot of others out there who feel the same.
PREVIEW HERE: http://firstsalvo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160
I have a lot of trades that I probably wouldn't have read if I had to read them issue by issue.
No my rant is just that MY feelings on the state of things as I see it from my experiences as a long time reader, a retailer, writer and artist. Cause I don't like Countdown and OMD and 52, and lack of continuity all the epic stuff that seems to end up going nowhere cause they just hit the reset button later after promises not too. And that fact that comic fans are viewed as a someone to laugh at and I say "Hey pick up an Indy book, they appreciate your feedback "I'm a Shill and a Plant?"
And besides that what the hell is wrong with promoting your book? If your spending literally thousands of dollars on artists, colorists, printing and are trying to put the BEST possible product you can in the hope others will enjoy it, what is wrong with that? People can say "Hey did you read the newest Thunderbolts, ..." or any mainstream title out there.
And I know SOME Indy books are discussed but its usually few and far between. But if you have your own stuff and say anything about it a immediate "STOP SHILLING YOUR CRAPPY BOOK!!!" hits the forum.
Now I understand that the forum should not be deluged with that kinda thing. But come on...
Every time someone talks up Spidey or Superman thats just free advertising on Marvel/DC's part. All I'd like to see is a little more love for some of the little guys out there. Guys who are like YOU! Slaving along at a day job and then coming home to pound away at a drawing table and computer to put out a book.
Anyway I'm sure I'll get a "Whiny bitch" or somesuch follow up but all I really wanted was to see if anyone out there agreed. If not, well I guess I'm alone out here in the ocean.
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Yeah its just easier to lump them into one descriptor
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Because I read Invincible, Astounding Wolf-Man and Madame Mirage.
But I wouldn't call Kirkman and Dini "indie."
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
I feel you there. Now the thing with Trades though is you will get alot less orders for a trade. If you think people don't want to plunk down $3 for a book what about $15 or $20. And then you also loose the little bit of revenue you may gain for selling those say 6 issues as issues.
I mean Invincible I don't think broke 1000 issue sold mark until like its 8th issue. Thats ALOT of money to be basically throwing into a large hole.
Look at Atomic Robo. Thats some GOOD STUFF but its around 3500 copies sold? Thats not great.. sales wise.
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Point well taken. But where do you establish that line?
I mean there not Mainstream, and not really Indy either... There sorta a .. Mindi.... or a Instream?
Substream maybe?
PREVIEW HERE: http://firstsalvo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160
While it definitely sucks that someone has to make such an investment to share their creativity, it's certainly nothing new and it's certainly not restricted to just comics. Take the music industry. A lot of bands, before getting signed to any sort of major label, tour by themselves and often lose money in the venture. Bands also put up entire CDs for free, and fuck their wallets.
Sure, it's fun to write and flaunt and show off your artistic side. But the real talent is the ability to make money off of it.
And so few people can do that.
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
Who says I don't? I said, "I try to stock a bunch of Indy stuff, but the thing is most doesn't sell." That doesn't mean I don't stock it and I don't try and push it.
Well I wasn't meaning it to come off that way. And I'll admit I did generalize a bit... but you know for me this stuff seems to have just been building for so long. And I'll have to admit OMD just the ANVIL that broke the camels back. For so long I've been strung along but Spidey and 52 and Countdown, HOM, CW, WWH and continuity issues, Wolverine being unable to be killed, the list goes on. I guess it just made me feel like what the hell, who cares about US anymore?
And I was reading the new issue of ROBOTIKA yesterday and in their is a character who's word balloons read vertically. Now I remember reading in the first mini that the Writer wanted that sorta hard to read dialog for the character, almost that she was having a hard time speaking English and the other characters had a hard time understanding her. And it WORKED. I mean the dialog WAS difficult to read and every one of her word balloons slowed to a crawl. BUT there were fan letters saying "Why does she talk like that, its so hard to read, please change it" and in this first issue, within the first 2 panels that you see her she fiddles with her neck and adjust her digital voice box and then asks the other main characters why didn't they tell her that it was on the wrong setting.
The writer worked it into the story to please the fans and give them a more enjoyable book. It was just ... REFRESHING!
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Okay, can we stop with that already? I'm sorry you felt personally insulted by what all means was probably a throw away line in X-Men, but that doesn't mean they were insulting comic fans. You're other example sucks too because it's a tv show. Of course they're going to go with the easy stereotype. Do you really think that the creators of "indie" comics hold us in a higher regard than the bigger companies?
That is very true and THAT is a good, no a GREAT point!
You know sometime I wonder if people realize just how much work, time and money goes into these labors of love.
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Maybe I'm naive and you are correct and I'm way off base but seriously mate?
I HONESTLY do. .
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