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Are RPG games dying?
Vash108
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I look back now and see a lot of clones over the years, some of the same old same old over and over. Farmer boy goes out on an errand that turns bad and saves the world from dark presence. Basically in a mix that makes up a lot of RPG’s, not that it is a bad thing it is a good formula and it works well. The fantasy genre is really expansive and there is always one around the corner be it good or bad, you will more than likely see an orc or elf and possible a runty dwarf (who also hates being called runty). Don’t get me wrong I enjoy a good fantasy game but sometimes it feels like that is the dominating factor in an RPG. So if you choose to read this please do not take offense and with a grain of salt, because I know there are good games out there but I mainly wish to state my view about the repetitiveness as of late and lack of new style.
Just go down the check list:
2. Sexy women in barely anything (not that it is a bad thing): Check
3. Ancient evil looking for world domination/destruction: Check
4. Farmer boy or new recruit: Check
I guess I would like to see something different for a change, not that I want the fantasy world to completely go away. But where did all the steam/cyber punk games go, some of those were the best games I have played, and just the fact that it was not the norm made it that much better.
Anyone remember the Fallout games? The Fallout series was excellent, and at the time there was nothing much like it and the depth of the game was beyond its time. I know that Bethesda is making the new Fallout and the move to first person does not sit too well with me… still I will reserve final judgment until I can get my hands on a demo or see more.
Which brings me to the JRPG scene man those games can be some real stinkers. Out of the hundreds the push out they are so linear and so copy/paste. I do feel the JRPG genre is being held back by tradition and what you can call a failure to really expand and try new things. I have seen a few new titles try new things and it seems hit or miss, like the new Persona and so far a lot of people seemed to enjoy it. But how many times when you pick up a JRPG more times than not after running a few steps you know you will engage in a random encounter and rinse/repeat. There are some new things coming out in this genre and I hope to see some improvement.
Lately amongst the slew of RPG and MMORPG that have been released over the past years there have been some real diamonds amongst the rough of bad games and knockoffs. There are a few games out and coming out that really look different and like the Freedom Force games or even the new Penny-Arcade game. The new Penny-Arcade game may turn off some people and even I am a little skeptical but just seeing it is different appeals to me.
I really don’t want to rattle off a long list of games but to name a few that I have enjoyed playing: The Witcher, NWN2, and Titan Quest. I know there are more games out but these are the most recent I have played and thoroughly enjoyed. Also I have not played Mass Effect yet, someone jacked my 360.
I know NWN2 still follows the D&D system but it was fun to play and see the story unravel, also completed the Mask of the Betrayer campaign. Although MoTB was not what I expected at first but after looking back it was a nice complement and hope to see it continue at least one more expansion (Psionics plz).
The Witcher was just an excellent game, the story was different and it really made the world seem imperfect like our own. Combat was different yet fun and complemented with the expansive potion brewing (although the inventory system could use work).
Titan Quest even though a hack n’ slash this game was a lot of fun to play with a lot of different combinations to turn out in character classes and abilities. What made it even better was the fact I could play it from start to finish with my friends.
I am not saying the tried and true formula is not the way to continue and I know people enjoy those games wholeheartedly. I would just like to see some improvement in this genre, and as gamers and paying customers we deserve it. I don’t think that RPG’s are dying but they do need a little life breathed into them.
What do you guys think is there anything that you would want to see or would you like to see more for the same but with something added that you feel is needed?
Just go down the check list:
Basic RPG formula
1. Elves: Check2. Sexy women in barely anything (not that it is a bad thing): Check
3. Ancient evil looking for world domination/destruction: Check
4. Farmer boy or new recruit: Check
I guess I would like to see something different for a change, not that I want the fantasy world to completely go away. But where did all the steam/cyber punk games go, some of those were the best games I have played, and just the fact that it was not the norm made it that much better.
Anyone remember the Fallout games? The Fallout series was excellent, and at the time there was nothing much like it and the depth of the game was beyond its time. I know that Bethesda is making the new Fallout and the move to first person does not sit too well with me… still I will reserve final judgment until I can get my hands on a demo or see more.
Which brings me to the JRPG scene man those games can be some real stinkers. Out of the hundreds the push out they are so linear and so copy/paste. I do feel the JRPG genre is being held back by tradition and what you can call a failure to really expand and try new things. I have seen a few new titles try new things and it seems hit or miss, like the new Persona and so far a lot of people seemed to enjoy it. But how many times when you pick up a JRPG more times than not after running a few steps you know you will engage in a random encounter and rinse/repeat. There are some new things coming out in this genre and I hope to see some improvement.
Lately amongst the slew of RPG and MMORPG that have been released over the past years there have been some real diamonds amongst the rough of bad games and knockoffs. There are a few games out and coming out that really look different and like the Freedom Force games or even the new Penny-Arcade game. The new Penny-Arcade game may turn off some people and even I am a little skeptical but just seeing it is different appeals to me.
I really don’t want to rattle off a long list of games but to name a few that I have enjoyed playing: The Witcher, NWN2, and Titan Quest. I know there are more games out but these are the most recent I have played and thoroughly enjoyed. Also I have not played Mass Effect yet, someone jacked my 360.
I know NWN2 still follows the D&D system but it was fun to play and see the story unravel, also completed the Mask of the Betrayer campaign. Although MoTB was not what I expected at first but after looking back it was a nice complement and hope to see it continue at least one more expansion (Psionics plz).
The Witcher was just an excellent game, the story was different and it really made the world seem imperfect like our own. Combat was different yet fun and complemented with the expansive potion brewing (although the inventory system could use work).
Titan Quest even though a hack n’ slash this game was a lot of fun to play with a lot of different combinations to turn out in character classes and abilities. What made it even better was the fact I could play it from start to finish with my friends.
I am not saying the tried and true formula is not the way to continue and I know people enjoy those games wholeheartedly. I would just like to see some improvement in this genre, and as gamers and paying customers we deserve it. I don’t think that RPG’s are dying but they do need a little life breathed into them.
What do you guys think is there anything that you would want to see or would you like to see more for the same but with something added that you feel is needed?
Vash108 on
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Look at it like fantasy novels. All fantasy basically stems from Tolkien and takes elements of what he put forth. Even books that I thoroughly enjoy, such as the Discworld series, use these same elements, but put their own twists on them.
The prevalence of original RPG's has definitely declined in the last ten years (wow, I'm showing my age). With today's high cost of entry for video game development, RPG's have become prohibitively expensive. You are not just dealing with a graphic engine and gameplay development, but also the rules and mechanics of the RPG universe, the storyline which should be well written, and the world in which it inhabits should be vibrant and alive.
This is probably why JRPG's are so common, because they are the most formulaic of RPG's. I'm not saying all, but most of them have cookie-cutter plots and characters, and focus primarily on slightly different battle systems and stat arrangements. Western RPG's tend to be more different and varied, and much bigger in every sense of the word. But this expansion is most likely a tremendous drain on resources and time. While we all clamor for Bioware to develop Baldur's Gate 3, unless it was done in the same style as BG2, a game that large and comprehensive would cost an ungodly amount of money.
Tl/Dr, it's not that RPG's are dying, it's just the current marketplace conditions make them harder to develop, and so we see fewer instances of original, expansive role-playing.
Also, more often than not, they'll be the ones that go way under the radar.
The Shadow Hearts games: take place in the early-mid 20th century.
Persona: modern times.
Shin Megami Tensei: generally modern leading to post apocalyptic. (And the 'evil' in these games, especially, is rarely black and white. Even Lucifer is shown having justification for his ideals.)
Suikoden: fantasy-based, but it seems to defy a lot of stereotypes in the genre from what I can see(a female knight that actually has sensible taste in armor, for example).
And then from the west you have games like Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines and Dreamfall. They take place in modern times, and they both have a unique style going for them.
There's still lots of developers striving to bring new ideas to the table, and RPGs keep getting more and more popular, so the genre isn't going anywhere.
Just a question of whether or not the innovators'll get the attention and success their games deserve.
Personally, a good game's a good game, so I'll play it regardless of origin, but I acknowledge that western games offer concepts that eastern games don't, and vice versa, so I try to keep up with what developers on both sides of the globe are up to.
Japan just doesn't know how to make fun RPGs.
"Are RPG games dying?"
and the second-last sentence:
"I don’t think that RPG’s are dying but they do need a little life breathed into them."
QUESTION ANSWERED!
I would like to see a move back to 2D. I prefer my devs to focus more on awesome story and character interaction instead of graphics and game engines.
think of Crackdown (GTA + RPG elements of leveling up)
or Call of Duty 4 (Online leveling + Perks)
Bioshock even.
and Mass Effect as you mentioned have not tried, is a great example of putting that "fantasy" leveling in a shiny new coat...(...why do I associate KotoR/Star Wars styles with fantasy?)
and JRPGs are just fine!
Disgaea is still a not so guilty pleasure for many here .. so many... LEVELS.... to grind.
Well, that's insightful. I don't know what it is about them that strikes you as dull, but eastern games have aspects that appeal to certain people.
For example, dungeon crawling and mapping out endless labyrinths isn't for everyone, but the genre has a following.
I tend to consider Disgaea and it's cousins as Tactical RPG's, not so much as JRPG's. I guess I've always thought of them as two distinct game types.
The answer really depends on whether or not you think games are dying in general.
edit: only speaking on behalf of video games.
Quite frankly I'd like to see a good single player RPG with the size of World of Warcraft, the graphics of Oblivion (Or better) and a plot that changes direction and gives lots of choice.
I'd also like to see no elves, orcs, goblins, dragons, dwarves or other cliche's akin to the Tolkein style. Serious, some fresh creature designs would be great.
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But it I think i should finish FF12 first...
You've played Bloodlines, I hope. I wouldn't say the world size compares to WoW(not that I'd know) or whether the graphics can compare to Oblivion(same), but the plot offers numerous directions and multiple choices.
As for creatures, well, you certainly won't be running into Tolkien critters.
it's all trickery and illusions.
everyone is just REALLY SLOW.
I see through the bullshit.
give me faxanadu speed anyday.
One innovation FO2 really hit and others(like Oblivion and Morrowind) missed was real open-endedness. FO2 was the only game I ever played where you could pretty much ignore the main quest and actually stumble upon solutions by total accident. Morrowind and Oblivion had expansive worlds with different subsets of mostly linear quests and some exploration elements.
The rest of the Shin Megami Tensei series would like a word with you..
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JRPGs are still going strong and have remained pretty static for, what, twenty years? There are good ones and bad ones (all of them!), and the whole JRPG developing thing isn't going anywhere. I hate them all and hope they die, but that's just me.
RPGs coming out of the west, however, well, I'm not sure if I'd say they're dying, but they aren't at the same level of prominence they used to enjoy. How many well-known developers out there outside of Eastern Europe actually produce high quality RPGs now? I can count, well, two.
And these games they do make have nothing of the feel or gameplay that older RPGs have had. Much of what made them great has been gutted and simplified. Not that I think that these newer games are in any way bad, but they just aren't the same.
Really, western RPG developers have seemed to go in the opposite direction of the Japanese. They've kept the genre moving since early this decade. They first started by creating a natural evolution of the genre which was revolutionary in how mind-bogglingly amazing it was and since have moved on to continually trying new things.
Eastern Europe seems to produce plenty of RPGs still that follow older models, but like most games that come out of Eastern Europe, their quality tends to be all over the place, usually leaning towards "pretty awful." They also don't really tend to sell much in comparison to other games and they're almost a non-issue.
I think it would be hard to call either kind of RPG dying, though. One is relatively stagnant and the other isn't and while western RPGs diverge further and further from their roots, their popularity only seems to rise. It used to be that a few hundred thousand copies for an RPG was amazing only a decade ago and then a million copies sold within a few years a few years later. Now we've seen Mass Effect sell more than a million and a half copies in a matter of weeks.
I am familiar with the series but not enough to comment on. Also I did not use the broad brush and say all JRPG's, but most.
Fuck yes, son.
On that note I just started on the Witcher...
...dear god a dwarf.
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Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire,
I get that its cool for the fans of Western RPGs to hate on the JRPG, but can someone at least justify these claims?
There are plenty of eastern games being innovative, I just get the impression that some people don't care to take notice.
Play Chrono Trigger and shut your fucking mouth.
Seriously, stop making broad presumptions.
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Half of you mouth-breathing retards spouting this garbage probably haven't even played a JRPG in the last 5 years. The other half probably barely managed to string together the condemnation through the debilitating effects of fetal alcohol syndrome. I cannot fathom how JRPGs can be "static" when there have been notable games with strong revisions to the battle systems, from Press Turns to FFXII's system.
I'm not trying to hate on JRPGs farther than some half-hearted jokes, but from what I've played, and I used to try quite a few of them, they haven't changed much in a long time. It could just be me not taking notice of things as they don't really appeal to me in any way, shape, or form, and even the games that I constantly see lauded as the best examples of the genre, I've hated quite a lot.
I would hesitate to call Puzzle Quest an RPG, much as the OP referred to Freedom Force as an RPG. The former's essentially a (awesome) casual game with RPG elements, while Freedom Force is more of a loose strategy game with RPG elements.
Both awesome, mind you, but not quite in the same category...and I really don't want to get into the whole semantic discussion (too late?) but I don't quite agree with your sentiment, though things are indeed not quite BAD. I still think the best time for RPGs was the late 90s, but hey.
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To be fair, they're not there to be the stereotypical workaholic miners and smithies that are also the butt of beard jokes.
They're there to be the butt of "your momma is a whore" jokes.
As for the OP, the RPG genre goes through cycles. It's more apparent on the PC side of things, but there have long been periods of mediocrity that are followed with periods of greatness. For instance:
Ultima 7, Wizardry 7, and other RPGs are on the PC scene: Great!
Then they stop being on the scene and all we see are bad Might and Magic games: Bad!
Then Fallout and Baldur's Gate come out: Great again!
Then we reach the last few years: Bad again!
Not to say there haven't been some good PC RPGs in the past few years, but they're not as prolific compared to the late 90's/early 2000's.
I predict that Dragon Age and Fallout 3 will help throw the cycle into the good part again.
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RPG elements are being fused into more and more games because developers quickly learned that adding levels to a character = crazy playtime increase.
Specifically, what is it about them? I'm guessing most issues people have with JRPGs can be attributed to their playing the wrong ones.
Or maybe just a dislike of traditional menu-based combat, but there's eastern RPGs that have little or nothing to do with that(Devil Summoner, Growlanser, etc.).
I see a lot of kneejerk hate directed at the eastern RPG, and I'm genuinely wondering what makes people feel that way.
Ah right. Only just started last night on it, something about shaving the dwarve's beard off or some shit.
Ditto
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Good point, and I do see the relevance now that I think about it. I am looking forward to Fallout 3 but I am still not too sure about the Oblivionesc FPS look. I just don't want it to be Oblivion in the Fallout IP, it would be very disappointing to me. I know it has been said before but Fallout was one of my favorite games I just want to see it done right.
Go and read some previews on it, it's not just an FPS. It retains the same combat mechanics and progression as the first 2. You can still target limbs and there are still move points, though for some reason crotch shots have been taken out.
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Dear God... no crotch shots? Damn you Bethesda, damn you!
Anyways, do you recommend any particular preview to check out over the others?
Yep
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There's usually little role to play at all, actually. Leveling up doesn't mean it's a role playing game. And the argument I usually see it something along the lines of "Well you play as Cloud the entire time so that's your role!", but that applies to all games. I don't play a role in Goldeneye more than any JRPG I've played and I'm pretty sure that Goldeneye isn't an RPG. I mean, there's a giant list somewhere about all of the generic things in a JRPG, as I'm sure you've seen, and as far as I can tell, many of those things on that list are in many JRPGs. At least, all that I've heard of in any detail.
But no, RPGs are not dead, they're currently trying to evolve to find that happy appeals-to-a-wider-crowd zone, at least with western games. JRPGs change slowly and in small ways over many years, just look at the Final Fantasy series.
Honestly if the next FF game doesn't steal Mass Effect's character creation idea, I'll be shocked. It's the perfect way to tell a great story but still give the character plenty of freedom to create who they want within the confines of the storyline, without being assigned a preset role for the entire game.
I think we have long since established that JRPGs are not really in any way analogous to regular RPGs, which is why they have a special denotation! And congratulations, you got an hour into the stories. If you stopped 50 pages into LoTR you'd probably wonder why Tolkien had a fetish for cheery midgets with hairy feet.
So do I, and I can think of several that are anything but unique.
That's not an eastern-specific issue.
Again, I think the JRPG is just like any other genre: there's the generic kind, and the innovative kind. You just have to look to find the latter.
But if you just aren't into the traditional combat scheme, then it probably wouldn't matter regardless, but there's quite a few that go out of their way to provide unique stories/atmospheres, I think.
But I would like to hear some of the innovative JRPGs out there, because I've never, ever heard of one. They've all looked like one basic outline with a few quirks or side tracks here and there.
You mean the one that was in development a year and a half before Mass Effect was released?
I'm pretty sure that you're going to be shocked.
And all this "lol JRPGs are uncreative" is amusing. The US will never see a ton of awesome stuff for any number of reasons. A few slip through on occasion; SRW:OG1/2, Mana Khemia, Shadow Hearts, etc... but the market's just not there to support localization of such.