The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent
vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums
here.
We now return to our regularly scheduled PA Forums. Please let me (Hahnsoo1) know if something isn't working. The Holiday Forum will remain up until January 10, 2025.
Posts
Yeah, I'm with you, ninja. Then again, I'm also a fan of anime. I bet there's a pretty high correlation of gamers who love/hate anime and love/hate JRPGs respectively.
Granted, I understand why folks like Pancake feel that way. Personally, I don't find myself interested with most Western-created TV shows and film (although games are an entirely different matter). I don't think they're bad, just not my cup of tea. (It probably helps that I am Asian, so I identify more with that culture sometimes)
Ironically, I bet there are a ton of Japanese gamers who feel the exact same way about Western-created games, and perhaps even Western-developed consoles (the Xbox and 360). Aesthetics can be cultural. They probably don't understand why shooters are so popular, and why we seem to have an unhealthy obsession towards war-related games (WWII, Battlefield, etc.).
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
Steam: JC_Rooks
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JiunweiC
I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
Thank god I'm not the only person who is being driven nuts by that.
Alot of us don't like Weeaboo grindan gaems. They use an extremely primitive combat system from the 80s, that western games abandoned decades ago. The tacked on anime plots, however, is what most repulses us.
That said, I don't really hate them. I like my classic final fantasies, and I don't play other jrpgs. The real enemy is the MMORPG, a vile breed of game that sucks the life and energy from the genre like a leech.
Gothic 3 came out in 2006, too. Bloodlines came out in November 2004, which makes it more like 3 years old. I'd also count Space Rangers 2 as a pretty good, recent RPG.
I don't know that the volume of western CRPGs has really gone down significantly since the Infinity Engine/Fallout era. I'd say the real heyday of the genre was back in the days of DOS, when Wizardry, Ultima and Might and Magic were significant franchises, and SSI alone was churning out 5-10 RPGs a year.
I think it's a little funny that the first person RPGs aren't considered traditional RPGs, insofar as a decade after its release I'm still not completely sold on the Infinity Engine's pausable real-time combat system; I'd still be a little happier if combat was as easy to plan out and control as the Gold Box games' square grids and discrete turns.
===
I don't want to get into why I do or don't play JRPGs, but is Chrono Trigger really the shining paragon of the genre that's supposed to shut up the naysayers? Seriously? This is probably the only one I ever beat, out of sheer bloodymindedness to see what it was all about, and it was pretty much what I expected. Do JRPG-haters usually come out of the experience as changed people?
Edit: I have learned, through "PIN Number", to ignore egregious acronymic errors.
Final Fantasy 6 is a better game than Chrono Trigger.
You are right about the late 80s early 90s being the hey day of RPGs in pure volume, and I love SSI's games, as you may well have guessed. Its no shock that a company that made strategy games made great RPGs as well.
First person RPGs can be traditional RPGs, but Mass Effect is not first person, and Bloodlines is only first person if you play it as a shooter/RPG hybrid (one of many ways). God Bloodlines is awesome. Both are action-RPGs. Morrowind is a traditional RPG, and its damn good.
Once you get the hang of the Infinity engine, though, its really easy to control, and movement between turns is something I've gotten really used to. It is, however, the only series of games that's done it and succeeded. See NWN for abject failure at the same thing.
Plots are subjective. I'm sure there are a lot of JRPGs and anime that I like with plots that you find are completely idiotic and nonsensical. But hey, I enjoy them. And I'm sure there are games and shows with plots that you like, that I find completely idiotic and boring. Fine, whatever. I just hope everyone's mature enough to realize that people have different tastes, and that one isn't inherently better than another.
As for MMORPGs, again I don't understand the hate. Don't like 'em? Don't play them! I don't understand how they're sucking "the life and energy from the genre". Either you're serious that those games are a detriment to the genre (if so, please explain!), or you're just saying that crap to troll the thread.
Ironically, MMOs like WoW are the closest thing to actually role-playing. My main WoW character was on a role-playing (RP) server. Although I don't role-play (it's a long story how I ended up there), it was interesting to see all the people that did, and it was a big deal for them. Sure, you can point and laugh at those players all you want, but you can't argue that they're actually playing roles, versus what the typical gamer does in a regular RPG (Western or Japanese-developed).
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
Steam: JC_Rooks
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JiunweiC
I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
There is currently still an on going glut of MMORPGs on the market, since its the new thing that all developers are rushing to in order to make quick money. They are making these games instead of standard RPGs. That is fairly obvious.
As for the second point;
I used to roleplay on an RP WoW server for the first couple months the game was out. I was in one of the most respected RP guilds and played in character at all times, I had a blast. Eventually what happened was that many of the best RPers splintered out into various raiding guilds because the game is designed in a way that actively discourages RP. Once in this guilds, these players stopped playing in character, because its much easier to start spouting ridiculous WoW memes and LOL alot than it is to stay in character during raids.
I'm familiar with this because it eventually happened to me, too, though later than with the first wave to leave the RP guilds. Once you start GRINDAN for loot, you don't have time to sit around and carry on your great personal dramas. So my character eventually faded away to the point where I simply didn't play IC anymore, this happened with many people.
What was left of the RP community was so small compared to non-RPers that they were isolated and did not RP in public channels nor with unknown people. They just shut themselves in with their mary-sue characters and were forgotten by the time I quit, 2 years in.
WoW is built for pure grindan, nothing else. And it is the template for all modern MMOs.
And what a beautiful thing that is.
I mean, don't get me wrong as I'm not against random encounters, but I find that one of the biggest draws for me in SRPGs is that they're pretty much an RPG with the random encounters, wandering and puzzle solving cut out and still containing all the set story pieces, its just you cut out the parts in between and replace it with hopefully addictive turn based combat.
Now, let's take a look at the developers known for making single-player RPGs: Bioware, Bethesda, Square-Enix, Atlus, and Obsidian. Well gee, they're still making RPGs. Sure, Squeenix also does FFXI, but it's still pumping out tons of regular RPGs too.
There goes your argument?
Well, I agree there. MMOs are based on a template for grinding. That said, at least there are role-playing options. Certainly it's not perfect, nor exactly long-lasting, but hell, at least it's present. In all other traditional RPGs, you're at most limited to role-playing a set of pre-determined characters that the developer has set in mind. Not that it's a bad thing mind you. (Personally, I have little creativity, so perhaps that's one reason why I prefer linear, story-driven JRPGs rather than completely open RPGs like Oblivion)
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
Steam: JC_Rooks
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JiunweiC
I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
And "us" being who?
I really hate these kind of topics. They seem to bring the idiot (and nationalist) out of everyone. I'm seriously starting to suspect that this topic's entire purpose is to incite flamewars.
TWITTER TWATS
It's fine if you don't like being told a story, even a silly one. But to say you don't like primitive combat looks like blatant hypocrisy from here.
Those are companies making successful MMORPGs. There isn't enough room in the market for more than a handful.
Square enix and Atlus make japanese rpgs. Obsidian makes mediocre sequels to Bioware games.
Leaving you with: Bioware and Bethesda.
Bioware has explicitly said they have no intention of ever making another traditional PC RPG. Bethesda, well, I don't know. I never was a Bethesda fan before Morrowind, so I don't really have much experience there, having only played two of their games.
That... isn't a problem. At all. You're supposed to focus on a small group of characters, the games are 10 times harder if you try to train every single character you get equally.
Anyway, this thread is irritatingly full of hatred for JRPGs from people who, mostly by their own admission, don't play or like JRPGs. They are good if you like the story and characters, or if they have a particularly interesting battle system. If you don't like the story, just don't play them. They're not for you. You don't watch the first episode of an anime and then come into a thread about anime and bitch and bitch about how much it sucks, when you don't like any anime. You don't buy a romance novel, read the first ten pages, and then go on the internet and complain about how the romance novel is dying as a genre when you haven't read a romance novel written in the last 10 years. Saying that RPGs or JPRGs are dying as a genre is only really possible if you ever enjoyed them in the first place!
*ahem*
I think that RPGs are not dying. We've got Fallout 3 coming out, which is looking really good, and WAR coming soon, which is bringing a lot of new ideas to MMOs. And we continue to get solid entries in classic series' like Dragon Quest with IX looking very different and coming out for the DS some time soon. And we've got interesting new series like Etrian Odyssey for the hardcore fans of older games. There's no crisis, you're just playing the wrong games.
First of all, I'm confused by what you are trying to argue. You claimed that MMORPGs are sucking the life out of the RPG genre, since "all developers are rushing to [make them] in order to make quick money". I said this is not true, and listed several developers that are still making single-player RPGs.
Yes, Bioware still counts. Even if they're not making PC RPGs (and frankly, I wish you cited a source because I don't recall that), they're still making RPGs for consoles. Bethesda is the one behind Fallout 3. And even though you may not like Japanese RPGs, they are still role-playing games. So yes, they count.
Just because you don't like a particular developer or sub-genre, doesn't mean you can just discount them from an argument! Learn to debate better?
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
Steam: JC_Rooks
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JiunweiC
I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
AD&D is far from primitive, my friend. It is, in fact, a very in depth system perfect for strategic combat. It is also put to that test where it counts, in the actual gameplay. You also chose the wrong point to make, my friend. Shattered Lands introduced a nearly perfect User Interface and control scheme of which Baldur's Gate is very reminiscent. It was a huge step forward from the gold box games of the late 80s.
You are apparently unaware that JRPGs evolved from the same source, via Wizardry, which itself was inspired by D&D. They simply have not evolved past their genre's founder, leaving the combat a rather tedious affair.
Japanese SRPGs might as well be another genre, as they play radically different, and do the sort of combat JRPGs are designed for correctly.
As for your comment about not liking being told a story, thats absurd. I do often prefer to be told a story indirectly, via atmosphere and environment, as that one of the strengths of the video game medium. But even when it is told traditionally, it is far less melodramatic and far more subtle in RPGs than in JRPGs.
If you really want, I can dig up the dozens of failures of MMORPGs, but there's google.
No, Japanese RPGs do not count, because no, they are not the same genre. This has nothing to do whether or not they are good games, or whether or not I like them.
And yes, Bioware counts, I just listed them. Obsidian has yet to make a game that isn't a Bioware sequel, so yes, its safe to ignore them till they come up with their own game.
Two whole companies, and a third one that makes sequels to one of them. That is not a strong and healthy market. In the 90s, there were more than a half dozen companies making RPGs. 2 companies making RPGs? That sounds like the very definition of a dying genre.
I am not sure which of these are considered the "better" ones, but I have been exposed to recent JRPGs. Not a huge number, given my ambivalence towards the genre, but a decent amount.
But seriously, RPGs like Oblivion and such have come a long way in terms of simulating a whole world and letting you explore that world and live in that world. JRPGs haven't. I remember playing Elder Scrolls Arena and being blown away by the gigantic world which to my ten year old brain seemed to be alive and organic. Same thing basically happened when I first played Rings Of Power for the Genesis except that I knew from the start that it wasn't going to let me be a dorf merchant who by night is the fantasy version of Batman. JRPGs have never done that and that isn't their reason d'etre, so that's alright, but comparing organic, larger than life western RPGs with the abomination of bad storylines and little to no freedom that is JRPGs is blasphemous.
You bring up a good point, if in a somewhat insulting way. Western RPGs and JRPGs typically (typically as int most of the times) have very different goals with regards to storytelling and immersion. A good JRPG is like reading a book, or watching a TV show, except it's a little more interactive. There's a story going on, but you have very little impact on it other than moving it forwards. In a western RPG, you are tasked with creating your own story within a certain "world," you have to decide what path to take, what skills to learn, what kind of character to make. To what degree these goals are accomplished, either creating an open world or telling a compelling story, is really what determines the quality of the game in the eyes of the fans of that type of RPG. So of course fans of western RPGs are going to think that JRPGs are boring and all the same, and fans of JRPGs are going to be put off by the nonlinearity and relative lack of plot advancement.
*sigh* I'm just gonna walk away from this thread now....
Let's make this simple. Here's a list of MMROPGs on Wikipedia. How about you point out "all the developers" that went on to make MMORPGs, rather than release traditional RPGs? Maybe it's just me, but I don't see that trend at all.
I agree that the market is smaller, but I don't think it has anything to do with developers running to do MMORPGs. It's just the nature of the industry and the userbase. For one thing, RPGs are not particularly easy to develop nowadays. Sure, back in the 80s and 90s, we had tons of computer-based RPGs (most notably all those D&D games). I think it had to do with the popularity of D&D back then, and the ease at which those games could have been developed. It was less about pretty graphics, and more about story, stats, and dungeon crawling.
Nowadays, an RPG is one of the most difficult things to develop. They tend to be long games (versus the 8-10 hour length for a typical shooter). Not only are graphics and gameplay a huge focus, but story/plot and the writing is vital (whereas it's not so important for other genres). It's no wonder that we're seeing a glut of shooters these days, and a lot fewer RPGs.
I don't think it means the genre is dying though. It's just different than what you remember.
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
Steam: JC_Rooks
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JiunweiC
I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
Other JRPGs put waaay too much self-parody and comedy into themselves, though, and when they don't, they have unrecognisably cliche characters that are truly unlikable in that they simply do not exist outside of their own cliche. I've played every RPG on the SNES, most of the top rated PS1 RPGS, and a good number of PS2 ones, but they have all left me dry.
Keep in mind this in an opinion, and I really do not feel any antipathy at all towards the genre, because it is something entirely separate from what I like. Saying JRPGs are bad for the RPG genre is like saying that Platformers are bad for the FPS genre.
There's half of your problem right there. RPGs were never known for being tech demos before fairly recently. Once the expectation is there, it will never go away. I have little hope for the future of RPGs, in fact, I have more hope that someone will come up with a decent MMO than I do for that, since at least those are considered a viable genre.
This all just reminds me of that article about eastern and western gameplay and game design differences. The Japanese don't really like exploring, they prefer a linear path and getting things beat and done with. Or, that's what was evidenced in the article.
Actually, I have more hope for RPG-hybrids. For example, I consider Bioshock very much a shooter with strong RPG underpinnings. And it was a good thing! Lots of character development of skills/tech/powers, a very well written story, and an amazing sense of atmosphere.
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
Steam: JC_Rooks
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JiunweiC
I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
Hell, you don't need that article to see that. Just look at how a large majority of their games are made. Sure, there's a huge following of Japanese who love games like Wizardry where you explore a dungeon or something similar (hence games like Etrian Odyssey), but they're the exception.
I don't. Bloodlines, the best RPG-hybrid ever, was a flop, and its dev went out of business because no one bought it.
Then again, we have Mass Effect, which was successful, because it has the massive power of Microsoft behind it. So, meh, maybe. Mass Effect was great, so who knows.
I'm just going to say it. Deus Ex. Who wants to install it?
I was thinking of that, but didn't mention it. Probably should have, to further prove my point!
Also, for DisruptorX2 ... just because one hybrid doesn't sell well, doesn't mean doom and gloom for all other RPG hybrids. Sheesh! Go take a statistics class or something.
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
Steam: JC_Rooks
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JiunweiC
I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
Meh, Bioshock and Deus Ex are FPS games. I like them, and they are a breath of fresh air, but they aren't really RPGs. I would more put that in the category of hope that more first person shooters like that are released. Since I've been playing shooters since the beginning of the genre and like the change.
Now, I was more leaning in point towards hopeful that games I enjoy are released, since I couldn't care less if everyone started making Oblivion clones. But Mass Effect is definitely great, and I certainly would not mind a trend of that sort on consoles at all.
If you would fully read what I wrote, no one was saying Bioshock and Deux Ex were RPGs. They're FPS games, but with definite RPG underpinnings. Hybrids. And they sold damn well, which bodes well. So yes, we all agree on the same thing.
And seeing how Mass Effect appears to be selling decently, we should be seeing more from that franchise. Yay! I also forgot to mention Fable. The sequel should be coming out this year. Another RPG to possibly look forward to.
- Don't add me, I'm at/near the friend limit
Steam: JC_Rooks
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JiunweiC
I work on this: http://www.xbox.com
I was listening to the PA podcast yesterday (a really old one, I think) and they were talking about how they didn't get fanboyism. It just seemed to flabbergast them, and they tried to get into the psychology and reasons why someone would champion a console. I think something similar happens with RPGs, tinged with a soupcon of xenophobia.
I'd love to see figures on what age-groups play what types - I'm 37 years old and manage a big old bunch of people - I just can't be arsed to think about where to go next and which faction to ally with. When I game, I want my heart-strings tugged, not my neurons twisted.
So, I tend to play JRPGs more than western ones, just because the stories are usually emotive. The gameplay is usually better in the western ones, the world is free-er, but I've never cried over the story in a western RPG. The very best (Planescape etc) of them seem intelligent, well-designed, but not really gripping to me. I guess I'd rather get emotional than have to think - YMMV.
There might too be something to be said for linear gameplay - it keeps you playing, pulling you on to the next part of the story, or next level-up. I like Oblivion, but sometimes I just can't decide what to do, and that's kind of a pain.
Anyway, no, RPGs are not dying, and MMORPGs are just beginning to really exist as a genre, rather than a few monolithic EQ-clones. Also, the excellent localisations done by NIS etc mean that more and more of the interesting RPGs are coming to the English language, rather than just the biggest few.
Is there a word for people adopting the language/attitudes of professionals without meaning to, because this kind of language is higher-status? Like normal people referring to their houses as 'properties' because estate agents do?
It's fun to take a character from nothing to a demi-god by the end. That progression and accomplishment is what makes the game fun in the first place.
Unfortunately that means that depending on the genre, there's not alot of variety. In Fantasy, yeah you're usually a farm boy. Because thats where the youngest, least skilled people work.
If you started off as a lvl20 King of the World, then what do you have to work towards? Taking over neighbouring countries? Then it gets more like a strategy game.
The core point of RPG's is to take Joe Average and make him/her great through your decisions. It cements the bond between you and your character and allows you to enjoy the story more and feel like you've done something.
As a consequence it's hard not to be cliche with young naive starter character, great evil that you must rise against, eventually become ultra-powerful and win.