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Lost a Child
MHYoshimitzu
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I'm going to make the story short, because the details of this story span twenty years and aren't all necessary in order to understand.
This girl I know has sort of held a torch for me for about five years. In this time, she's had several boyfriends, and got pregnant during high school (she was about 16 or 17). She kept the child, graduated high school, and has been raising her daughter ever since. Her daughter is almost three now.
In December, I decided for one reason or another that I would try a relationship with her, despite her having a daughter and despite my inability to financially take care of a child while I'm going to college. If it were just her, the situation would be exactly the same, and her daughter is polite and adorable, so I'm more than willing to have her around because she's basically a part of this girl.
This girl's had a history of abuse. Her mother is bipolar and doesn't take her meds, and would regularly scream at this girl for little to no reason, and would tell this girl that she isn't raising her child correctly, is a horrible mother, and so on. My girlfriend has had the police called on her for little to no reason, and the police in the area know the family very well and just sort of respond out of a courtesy before realizing that this is "just one of mom's crazy manic moments" and leaving. She's said several times how she really doesn't have any other place to go other than this house until she can save enough for an apartment, and having a two-year old makes it difficult for anyone to really put her up for any extended period.
This is probably where I went wrong. Since I'm now her boyfriend and in the middle of this, I decide that I can't let my girlfriend and her daughter live in a household where this is happening, and tell her that she needs to get out and stay with a friend until she can save for an apartment. She stays with a few friends and ultimately finds that she not only can't find a job in the area (she was unemployed for a time because of issues concerning her home life), but no one will keep her for more than a week because of her kid. She has a grandmother in Florida (we live in Pennsylvania) who offered to keep her and help her find a job in the area, and I suggest she goes down there to live with her for a while. She reluctantly agrees.
Now, knowing that this is what is ultimately best for her, I also realize that I can't do long distance relationships. I had a bad relationship with a girl on the west coast who was all about living together once we were out of college, and so on. When I went to visit her (about $500 out of my pocket for the airfare alone) on a holiday break, she decides after about three days that she doesn't like me anymore. Not the best idea for a relationship on my part, but it still hurt and influences my feelings about long distance relationships. I tell her this before she leaves and she agrees to sort of "put everything on hold" until she gets settled.
She's settled in Florida, and she has found a job, but complications have really prevented us from talking to each other all that much. Both of us realize that we miss the physical company of one another and that it's getting to be too much without each other. I decide that I really can't be away from her and still continue a relationship and start to go back on my promise. We have a big argument on the phone and through instant messenger and through all of that we end up breaking up for good. She's inconsolable and wants to "move away from everything" to get away from the pain, and I tell her it's unreasonable to think like that. Another argument insues. I tell her that I held off on breaking up with her because I knew that she would try something like this, and that I valued our continuing friendship and didn't want it to end.
That's the backstory.
It's through this argument that I learn I had a child. She miscarried in the beginning of February and chose tonight to tell me about it. I honestly feel numb right now and don't really know what to say.
Some things you need to know about this girl:
-she's been with three guys, including me
-she miscarried three children with her first boyfriend, and conceived a child with him, who is her daughter
-she's been known to manipulate people to get what she wants if she feels hurt
-she's been known to lie to get what she wants if she's under extreme emotional duress (like moving out of her parents house with no place to go, under my advice)
-I had tried to end this relationship before she left, and she attempted to compromise with me until the subject was talked to death. In her words, she "finally was with the guy she wanted after all these years, so she wasn't giving up without a fight".
I can see where she's coming with the last point, as she was sort of hitting rock bottom all at once and was trying to hold onto everything she possibly could. And it was a dick move for me to try to end the relationship while she was in this kind of state.
A lot of these spelled huge warning signs for me, but I chose to ignore them anyway. She was my friend, and I wanted to help her as a friend and as her boyfriend.
My question: taking all these points and the general backstory into consideration, how should I feel about the miscarried child? Should I feel relieved? Do you think she's lying to me to try to give me some sort of guilt trip so I'll continue to talk to her (she denies this)? Could she even be testing the waters before telling me she actually is pregnant (it is possible, but she's denied this several times as well)?
It's a lot to take in, but I need a fresh perspective on this situation. Thanks.
This girl I know has sort of held a torch for me for about five years. In this time, she's had several boyfriends, and got pregnant during high school (she was about 16 or 17). She kept the child, graduated high school, and has been raising her daughter ever since. Her daughter is almost three now.
In December, I decided for one reason or another that I would try a relationship with her, despite her having a daughter and despite my inability to financially take care of a child while I'm going to college. If it were just her, the situation would be exactly the same, and her daughter is polite and adorable, so I'm more than willing to have her around because she's basically a part of this girl.
This girl's had a history of abuse. Her mother is bipolar and doesn't take her meds, and would regularly scream at this girl for little to no reason, and would tell this girl that she isn't raising her child correctly, is a horrible mother, and so on. My girlfriend has had the police called on her for little to no reason, and the police in the area know the family very well and just sort of respond out of a courtesy before realizing that this is "just one of mom's crazy manic moments" and leaving. She's said several times how she really doesn't have any other place to go other than this house until she can save enough for an apartment, and having a two-year old makes it difficult for anyone to really put her up for any extended period.
This is probably where I went wrong. Since I'm now her boyfriend and in the middle of this, I decide that I can't let my girlfriend and her daughter live in a household where this is happening, and tell her that she needs to get out and stay with a friend until she can save for an apartment. She stays with a few friends and ultimately finds that she not only can't find a job in the area (she was unemployed for a time because of issues concerning her home life), but no one will keep her for more than a week because of her kid. She has a grandmother in Florida (we live in Pennsylvania) who offered to keep her and help her find a job in the area, and I suggest she goes down there to live with her for a while. She reluctantly agrees.
Now, knowing that this is what is ultimately best for her, I also realize that I can't do long distance relationships. I had a bad relationship with a girl on the west coast who was all about living together once we were out of college, and so on. When I went to visit her (about $500 out of my pocket for the airfare alone) on a holiday break, she decides after about three days that she doesn't like me anymore. Not the best idea for a relationship on my part, but it still hurt and influences my feelings about long distance relationships. I tell her this before she leaves and she agrees to sort of "put everything on hold" until she gets settled.
She's settled in Florida, and she has found a job, but complications have really prevented us from talking to each other all that much. Both of us realize that we miss the physical company of one another and that it's getting to be too much without each other. I decide that I really can't be away from her and still continue a relationship and start to go back on my promise. We have a big argument on the phone and through instant messenger and through all of that we end up breaking up for good. She's inconsolable and wants to "move away from everything" to get away from the pain, and I tell her it's unreasonable to think like that. Another argument insues. I tell her that I held off on breaking up with her because I knew that she would try something like this, and that I valued our continuing friendship and didn't want it to end.
That's the backstory.
It's through this argument that I learn I had a child. She miscarried in the beginning of February and chose tonight to tell me about it. I honestly feel numb right now and don't really know what to say.
Some things you need to know about this girl:
-she's been with three guys, including me
-she miscarried three children with her first boyfriend, and conceived a child with him, who is her daughter
-she's been known to manipulate people to get what she wants if she feels hurt
-she's been known to lie to get what she wants if she's under extreme emotional duress (like moving out of her parents house with no place to go, under my advice)
-I had tried to end this relationship before she left, and she attempted to compromise with me until the subject was talked to death. In her words, she "finally was with the guy she wanted after all these years, so she wasn't giving up without a fight".
I can see where she's coming with the last point, as she was sort of hitting rock bottom all at once and was trying to hold onto everything she possibly could. And it was a dick move for me to try to end the relationship while she was in this kind of state.
A lot of these spelled huge warning signs for me, but I chose to ignore them anyway. She was my friend, and I wanted to help her as a friend and as her boyfriend.
My question: taking all these points and the general backstory into consideration, how should I feel about the miscarried child? Should I feel relieved? Do you think she's lying to me to try to give me some sort of guilt trip so I'll continue to talk to her (she denies this)? Could she even be testing the waters before telling me she actually is pregnant (it is possible, but she's denied this several times as well)?
It's a lot to take in, but I need a fresh perspective on this situation. Thanks.
MHYoshimitzu on
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Cut yourself off from her completely for awhile. Trying to be friends with someone right after a breakup is a terrible idea. If, in a few months, you want to talk to her again, go ahead.
No offense, but retreat. Seems like it was over complicated to begin with and now its snow balling.
And like Thanatos said, she miscarried, there's not too much you can do about it even if it is true. That also begs the question why she didn't tell you when it happened. I'm assuming the relationship was going well?
Don't ask us how you should feel. Grieve over the loss and let time heal your wounds.
As far as the girl, tell her you need some time by yourself to digest things and don't contact her for another few months or years. Get over all of this and find someone less prone to drama and manipulation.
wow. no.
brother. if its true, grieve. give this situation some space, let her blow off some steam. then sit down and get some solid details, try not to torture yourself with shoulda woulda coulda's
Your description characterizes the relationship unquestionably as toxic and fraught with peril. I'm not saying it actually is, but you wrote a full page about it and nearly every sentence revealed yet-another red flag. Why is the proper course of action here hard for you to see?
This.
It's time to pause for a minute, and think about the repercussions of your actions. You need to decide:
1) Whether this woman is worth the mountain of baggage it sounds like she's carrying
2) Whether you're ready to be a father
3) Whether you're ready to start using protection for a change, if you're not ready to be a father
4) (I hate to say it, but) Whether she's just using you to try and have another baby (given the amount of almost - and actual - pregnancies she's had)
5) Whether this woman actually has ANY redeeming qualities (from the post you gave, I didn't see a single one)
If I were you, I'd seriously consider cutting my losses... and in the future, using protection.
And please, think seriously about point #5 in particular. Are you genuinely interested in this woman because of some positive quality she posesses, or are you infatuated with the idea of her? Or are you trying to rescue her?
I've seen far too many men fall into horrible, awful relationships because - rather than falling in love with the actual woman herself - they fell in love with what they imagined her being, or they fell in love with the romantic notion of being able to "rescue" her. These are BAD reasons to be in a relationship.
In my case I came to the conclusion that she was definitely trying to manipulate me, because when I gave it some serious thought nothing she said added up.
I'm not able to say in your case that she is definitely lying, but yeah, your post has a lot of warning signs. Definitely do what Thanatos has suggested and give yourself some space from her for a while.
She might have said it spitefully or in order to hurt you, but . . . if she miscarried three times already, it would not be surprising if she miscarried again. Some women just have trouble keeping a baby to term. And for a lot of women, miscarrying is a big, traumatic deal. I can't emphasize that enough. So give her space, don't hammer her with questions or try to catch her in a "lie" about it. Just leave it be.
How should you feel about it? No one here can answer that for you. You have to answer it for yourself.
As for your relationship with her, don't stay in it if you're only there because you feel sorry for her or want to "rescue" her. That's not fair to either of you.
From the wikipedia.org article on miscarriages:
First trimester
Most miscarriages (more than three-quarters) occur during the first trimester.
Chromosomal abnormalities are found in more than half of embryos miscarried in the first 13 weeks. A pregnancy with a genetic problem has a 95% chance of ending in miscarriage. Most chromosomal problems happen by chance, have nothing to do with the parents, and are unlikely to recur. Genetic problems are more likely to occur with older parents; this may account for the higher miscarriage rates observed in older women.
Anyway, don't mean to highjack the thread. Listen to what everyone is saying and run for the hills.
We only had sex twice, and I used condoms both times.
It was funny, because I never actually reached a climax either time. She didn't either. Both times, the sex lasted for hours, and the only reason I stopped was the condom eventually broke under the stress of being used for so long. After that, I told her to go on birth control, in case this ever happened with a condom again, but we never had sex while she was on birth control.
So, you can see my skepticism when she says she miscarried. Certainly, the possibility exists, but it was only two times. The condom breaking is the wild card factor here, and I don't know whether she's lying to me to make me feel bad or what.
I sat awake for a long time last night, and the prospect that she was using this as a means to test the waters that she's actually pregnant really got to me.
As for asking me whether I'm ready to be a father... I suppose? I always held the opinion that if you have sex, you should always plan for the possibility of a child, but now that the shoe is on the other foot it's kind of scary. I still do think that now, but the circumstances are still shrouded in mystery and she's holding all the cards here. I have no way of proving one way or another if she's lying to me or not.
http://community.livejournal.com/vaginapagina/7760810.html
That community in general is a fantastic place to learn about women's bodies in general, and that post in particular might give you some ideas about this girl's particular situation. You asked how you should feel about the miscarriage: don't worry about it. On the outside she would have been, what, two and a half months along? The miscarriage at that point would have just been like a very heavy, gunky period. Not pleasant, but certainly not baby business.
It seems like it's probably better for both of you to not try and continue the relationship long-distance (they really can be very hard). Perhaps she was thinking that it would be good to finally have a father figure in her child's life; maybe it wasn't a conscious thought, but I'd bet having those sorts of hopes can be a bit disheartening when it's pulled out from under you. That said, it's not your responsibility to provide a safety net of any sort for her, so do what's best for you. She's taking steps to do what she needs for her life, and while it won't be easy, she's doing it, and that's really good for her. Don't feel bad about taking steps to do what you need for your life.
It's okay to hurt.
Wait a second, you never climaxed? Yes, there's a fleeting chance of pregnancy due to pre-cum (if you even got that far along), but I imagine merely the frictional stress between yourself and the condom would've likely harmed/destroyed any that had gotten into the condom before it broke, ESPECIALLY if it's a spermicidal condom. The chances seem extremely low. If you had climaxed after it broke, or even at some point before it broke, I'd say it's more likely. But I have to admit that I question severely the odds against which she could've actually gotten pregnant.
Yes, it's possible. But given how you describe the situation, the odds seem staggeringly low.
Given the other information, however, the odds are staggeringly HIGH that she's out of her mind.
Again, please ask yourself whether you are actually in love with this woman, or whether you just want to save her. If it's the latter, walk away: no one can "save" anyone from themselves. At best, they can happen to be there when the person realizes that they need to save themselves... but nothing you can do will bring that about, especially if she's getting what she wants doing what she's doing now.
And you were wearing a condom.
And you know this is someone with a tendency to lie and what, 5 pregnancy scares?
Man, you seriously do not want this. You need to get away from her for your own sanity's sake and before you do the whole "I have to fix her thing" let me stop you and tell you that no, you don't, because no, you can't.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Ah, I didn't even realize that! (you learn something new every day here)
Damn, that pretty much makes the odds that she got pregnant from you exactly 0%. If there was a negative percentage that could be assigned to the odds of something happening, it would get that.
Which means a few things:
1) She's lying to you. Either that, or she got pregnant from someone else and had a miscarriage. But given her history, it sounds more reasonable to believe she was just plain lying to you. Take it for whatever reason you will... but I'd say given her history of doing this, it might be to draw sympathy from you and make you stick around.
2) Previous "miscarriages" should be brought into question. Telling someone they miscarried isn't something that someone should take lightly: it hurts if you're the mother (if it actually happened), and it DOES hurt if you're the father. If she would lie to you about something this important, it could (and probably DOES) mean that she's lied about it before.
She's noticed that it works as a sympathy-drawing technique, and damn the consequences to those she tells it to. That shows an extreme level of desiring her own self-interest over others' well being. I mean, that's some daytime talk show stuff.
3) Listen to the advice above. Get the fuck out of there. This woman needs a therapist, not a boyfriend. And the certainly doesn't need another kid. If you want to help her, break off the relationship and convince her (as a concerned friend, NOT as a sexual partner) to seek professional help. And then get away, and don't give her the opportunity to make up a lie to you again (that is, don't have sex, or come close to it, with her again).
I know this is unfortunate to find out. But man, the proof's in the pudding. Get out of there.
Don't be one of those people who ends up on a daytime talk show.
Oh, what the fuck. Why is she changing her story now? This is unnerving.
I might not understand the timeline. Does it look like this:
In December of 07 or January of 08 you had sex with her. Then she is claiming that she got pregnant and miscarried in Feb but that somehow the baby might of survived, maybe. But she isn't sure?
Edit2: Oh, I think I get it, she thinks she may not have actually miscarried and that she is still pregnant. Well, there is one way to figure that out. It involves a doctor.
She assumed she lost this one because the exact same thing happened, but she told me that there's always a chance it survived.
I told her she needed to be absolutely sure before she told me something like that, because it has major consequences for my life. She'll be taking a test in two days, home, then professional.
This honestly smells like manipulation. It's bothering me. I'm making it very clear to her that this isn't going to make anyone happy if she's lying, and that if she's hiding anything else, it needs to come out now.
Edit: Yes, that is the timeline and she thinks there's a possibility she's still pregnant.
If it turns out she's pregnant, I'd advise you to have a DNA test on the baby. If what you said was completely true and honest (no climax, sex for hours with condom on, etc...) there is 0% chance that, if she's pregnant, it's yours.
You have to realize that, in order for a pregnancy to occur, there must be sperm. And it has to reach her egg. If there was no sperm produced during intercourse, and there was no sperm created in the few minutes before any pre-cum occurred, there is no possible way that any of your sperm could have gotten to her egg: because there was none.
I don't need a DNA test. If she's pregnant, I know it's mine.
Edit: She's telling me to walk away from the situation, regardless if she's pregnant or not.
But as was said earlier, if it's not ejaculate (or you didn't ejaculate immediately before), it's not going to have semen in it.
And WHEN was it when this happened, time period wise?
I think you're underestimating the likelihood that she's outright lying to you.
If it helps to have female advice, I told my wife about this situation. She told me: (summary)
It's no myth. There's some sick, self-interested people out there. I don't know if she's one of those kinds of people, but from everything you've said it sure sounds like it.
Walk the fuck away.
1) Unless you can monitor the test, you'll have no idea if it is reasonable to believe what she says about the results.
2) If she just had a miscarriage, a home test will probably still show positive.
I agree with Thanatos. Especially if she was on the pill, you used condoms, and didn't ejaculate inside of her, there's no reasonable line of thinking for pregnancy even to be an issue, so you should just get it off the table as far as your discussions are going.
The reason the pull out method is risky is primarily because control during that situation can often be difficult, misjudgements are easy to make, and if you jerked it earlier in the day you run a small risk of the pre-cum resulting in 18 years of responsibility.
Given what's at stake, it's not a good method to rely on. However, it's important to remember that the odds of getting someone pregnant, should you pull out successfully, are exceedingly low. Even if there's sperm carried forward by pre-cum, pregnancy isn't 100% likely. Lots of people have difficulty conceiving when they're TRYING to get pregnant. It doesn't happen every time with proper ejaculation. A miniscule number of soldiers deposited partway in stand even worse odds than an army fired directly at the enemy target.
Now if you're also wearing a condom on top of that. Seriously. Think about this. You're being fucked with because you're gullible and she knows she can get away with it.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Sounds like she's starting to realize she will have no evidence to back up her claims should you pursue it. Just walk away.
There's really nothing else we can say: that sums it up perfectly. At this point, it's up to you to take our advice (or at least listen to our advice and investigate the issue further to find out if she's lying or not) or keep going the way you're going, and ignore said advice.
If you're really not sure if she's lying or not, do what you can to pay her an in-person visit, if that's at all possible. See if you can get to the bottom of this, in a way that she won't be able to escape/lie her way out of. At this point, I wouldn't trust anything she told you over the phone. Just as easily as she could make up that she had a miscarriage/is pregnant, she could pretend that she saw a doctor and that the doctor said she was pregnant.
I hate to be this mistrusting, and in normal circumstances I'd give the benefit of the doubt: after all, miscarriage is a horrible experience for most people and very sad. But given the history in this case it seems clear that she is manipulating you, and I don't give any benefit of the doubt to someone who would lie about such a traumatic experience just to try and get her way. That's fucked up. FUCKED UP.
EDIT: Seriously, listen to me. If you REALLY want to give her the benefit of the doubt, go over there. And then go WITH her to see the doctor. If she thinks that's a sign of mistrust, you can point out that she's never really done anything to EARN your trust. This sounds like the only way you're going to get an absolute answer. If you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, this is going to pretty much be the only way to keep her from lying to you. Hell, I don't even know if THAT will work, because I'm not sure the extent to which you can be allowed in the room with the doctor, or what the doctor can tell you about her pregnancy status. But you're certainly not going to figure out if she's telling the truth through the phone. It all sounds extremely suspicious, and I personally wouldn't believe her... but if you REALLY want to believe her, you need to go over and find out the truth for yourself, somehow.
But that could just be my optimistic side coming through. In all likelihood, this is just one of the most fucked up mind games/manipulation attempts a person can do to another.
At the very least, this was an exercise in choosing and trusting the right people, and how I made a mistake in thinking this girl wasn't going to try to take advantage of my better nature.
At the very most, she tells me she's pregnant, and what can I do? Nothing, really. Guys don't have a lot of say in having abortions. I made it clear to her that if such a thing were to happen, I would never forgive her for bringing yet another child in the world who doesn't have a father capable of taking care of him/her.
It may be irresponsible to have sex without a plan on how to take care of a potential child, but it's even worse to bring a child into the world when you can't properly take care of him/her.
Either way, I should hear the results in a few days. Thanks, guys.
It would also pretty conclusively tell you if she even HAS a kid, let alone if it's yours... because once you're involved in the testing, I'm sure they'd have to share the results DIRECTLY with you... and no doctor would lie to a patient about the results, though your girlfriend might. Getting it from the horses' mouth will be important.
I think she's crazy.
Alternatively, maybe she has some medical problem (unrelated to pregnancy) which is causing pain and bleeding, and because she had pain and bleeding with her previous miscarriages, she associated it with having a miscarriage. (Heck, it could have caused the miscarriages.)
But it's more likely that she's just lying, IMO.
I'm going to go with her telling the biggest fucking porky pies in the world. Keep her the hell out of your life.
I guarantee that she is fucking with you.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Anyway, she was off birth control a week ago and was supposed to do a home test today, but I've heard nothing. The longer she waits, the more suspicious she becomes.
I'm not particularly worried because I've already laid out all my choices on the table for her and what would happen should she choose whether to keep the baby or not if she is indeed pregnant. Since I have no power over the situation, I am letting her know ahead of time what is going to happen so there are no surprises.
Now I play the waiting game.