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Do you need a reason to dislike something? (Or like it?)
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My friend has been bugging me to watch There Will Be Blood. I've actually been planning on watching it with my sister, who really wants to see it because she loves DDL, but we haven't had the time yet. That's fine.
But since I haven't watched it yet, he keeps telling me about the movie. At one point he said it was something like Gangs of New York, or at least the part DDL plays is like his part in that movie. Or something. Anyway, the topic moved on to Gangs, and I told him that I didn't like it. I thought it was too long, and I'm not interested in the setting.
So he starts pressing me to give him reasons for not liking it, as if it being too long and about something that doesn't interest me wasn't enough. Or, just not liking it. He wanted real, independently verified facts, which completely threw me off. I don't need a reason for not liking someone. If I don't like it, I don't like it. What else is there?
I don't like certain music, and it has nothing to do with how good or bad I think the musicians are, I just don't like it. It's the same with movies, or TV, or comedians, or any other type of entertainment. Steven Wright bores the hell out of me. He might be popular, but he is incapable of making me laugh, which is what I want in a comedian. So I don't like him. I don't think I need more of a reason than that. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was a great movie, but I can't stand wire-fu, and didn't really like the movie because of that.
On the other hand, there are things that I find myself liking that I could never really explain. Often they're just passing, e.g. a song that gets stuck in my head for a week. Sometimes it's more than that. I find myself watching a show like The IT Crowd, which is a British sitcom, and I hate sitcoms 9 times out of 10, but that show makes me laugh.
I tend to avoid things that I'm sure I won't like, unless the evidence is overwhelming. It's never been a problem for me. Tell me a movie is an amazing legal drama and I'll tell you that's great, but I'm not going to watch it. Tell me this band is the best speed metal put out in the last 15 years and I'll tell you that's wonderful, but I'm not going to listen to it. Well, I'm more open minded when it comes to music (because it doesn't waste as much of my time as watching a 2 hour movie would), but the principle is the same. Maybe that makes me closed minded.
Now, I'll admit that I'm biased. I look down my nose at people who wallow in mediocrity. It's a slightly different topic, but people who just don't try hard enough to find things that are actually good bug me slightly. They're the ones who prop up the current top-40s song-of-the-week music industry we have right now, and that pisses me off. But at the same time, if someone is really content listening to Shania Twain, Celine Dion and Nickelback, who am I to say there's something wrong with that? If they think Transformers and White Chicks are the height of film, should I bother to tell them they're wrong? If only to stop shit like that from getting made, but since that's never going to happen, I usually leave them alone. And are they bad? Sure, they're considered to be terrible by most everyone who actually cares, but they make money, so somebody must enjoy them.
And it's hard to find good entertainment. I have to actively work to find indie bands I like, but, for me, it's worth it. I have to search far and wide to find movies that aren't Hollywood, but, again, I find it's worth it. I don't watch TV, but I'll look for DVDs of a show that actually seems good. Not everyone wants to work for their entertainment, I'm sure, but I still get bothered by it.
Anyways, does someone need to really justify their like or dislike of something?
But since I haven't watched it yet, he keeps telling me about the movie. At one point he said it was something like Gangs of New York, or at least the part DDL plays is like his part in that movie. Or something. Anyway, the topic moved on to Gangs, and I told him that I didn't like it. I thought it was too long, and I'm not interested in the setting.
So he starts pressing me to give him reasons for not liking it, as if it being too long and about something that doesn't interest me wasn't enough. Or, just not liking it. He wanted real, independently verified facts, which completely threw me off. I don't need a reason for not liking someone. If I don't like it, I don't like it. What else is there?
I don't like certain music, and it has nothing to do with how good or bad I think the musicians are, I just don't like it. It's the same with movies, or TV, or comedians, or any other type of entertainment. Steven Wright bores the hell out of me. He might be popular, but he is incapable of making me laugh, which is what I want in a comedian. So I don't like him. I don't think I need more of a reason than that. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was a great movie, but I can't stand wire-fu, and didn't really like the movie because of that.
On the other hand, there are things that I find myself liking that I could never really explain. Often they're just passing, e.g. a song that gets stuck in my head for a week. Sometimes it's more than that. I find myself watching a show like The IT Crowd, which is a British sitcom, and I hate sitcoms 9 times out of 10, but that show makes me laugh.
I tend to avoid things that I'm sure I won't like, unless the evidence is overwhelming. It's never been a problem for me. Tell me a movie is an amazing legal drama and I'll tell you that's great, but I'm not going to watch it. Tell me this band is the best speed metal put out in the last 15 years and I'll tell you that's wonderful, but I'm not going to listen to it. Well, I'm more open minded when it comes to music (because it doesn't waste as much of my time as watching a 2 hour movie would), but the principle is the same. Maybe that makes me closed minded.
Now, I'll admit that I'm biased. I look down my nose at people who wallow in mediocrity. It's a slightly different topic, but people who just don't try hard enough to find things that are actually good bug me slightly. They're the ones who prop up the current top-40s song-of-the-week music industry we have right now, and that pisses me off. But at the same time, if someone is really content listening to Shania Twain, Celine Dion and Nickelback, who am I to say there's something wrong with that? If they think Transformers and White Chicks are the height of film, should I bother to tell them they're wrong? If only to stop shit like that from getting made, but since that's never going to happen, I usually leave them alone. And are they bad? Sure, they're considered to be terrible by most everyone who actually cares, but they make money, so somebody must enjoy them.
And it's hard to find good entertainment. I have to actively work to find indie bands I like, but, for me, it's worth it. I have to search far and wide to find movies that aren't Hollywood, but, again, I find it's worth it. I don't watch TV, but I'll look for DVDs of a show that actually seems good. Not everyone wants to work for their entertainment, I'm sure, but I still get bothered by it.
Anyways, does someone need to really justify their like or dislike of something?
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My ex-girlfriend loved hip-hop, but I just didn't "get" it. It frustrated her to no end that I couldn't share in her appreciation of the latest artist she was listening to, and I think, in a way, it caused a rift between us. Tastes are a reflection of our personalities, and while, in most cases, people can agree to disagree on certain topics, we ask for reasoning behind people disliking our likes simply as a way to ensure that those person's feelings towards our tastes aren't a relfection of those person's feelings towards US.
For instance, I really enjoyed Transformers for the most part, but certainly recognize where its failings lie. That being said, if someone tells me they hated it, I rationalize it by saying that my enjoyment of the set pieces and action and special effects trumped my dislike for the stupid plot and blatant summer-movie-blockbuster trappings, while the other person's dislike for those things trumped whatever excitement the positives might have provided.
Of course, as that divide in taste gets wider and wider, things get more heated, and personalities can start to clash. I mean, I don't know if I can get along with someone who thought White Chicks was the height of entertainment, simply because I not only think that movie is bad, but downright offensive. I also tend to judge people on what they thought of the South Park Movie. If anyone says "I hated that movie because they made fun of Canada", I just write that person off right away.
Not because they don't appreciate what I like, but because their tastes are a reflection on their personality, and while some divergence is perfectly fine, too much divergence signifies conflicting personalities.
My friend was just being an ass, which is what he does. He seemed genuinely confounded when I told him I didn't like Gangs of New York, and that's why he kept pressing me about it. Problem was, I only watched the movie once, and that was years ago, so I didn't have a clear memory of exactly why I didn't like it, just that I didn't, and wouldn't want to watch it again. I started pulling out reviews that agreed with me, (even positive reviews for the movie said it was too long), and then he gets all "I want your opinion, not some reviewer's."
Still, there are bands I like that I know other people just won't, and it usually doesn't bother me. I try and introduce people to new things, but when it falls flat I don't get offended.
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I would really go back and delete this entire portion from your original thread. Personal taste is just that, personal taste. You can justify it, or not. Or just leave it as it wasnt my thing, and your good.
However then you add this, and go from making a point to how each individual is entitled to their own likes or dislikes without having to give reason to coming off like a pompous jackass who is annoyed the ignorant masses person taste isnt more to your liking. Just because your tastes extend to obscure bands or movies doesnt make it better than the latest hollywood no brainer blockbuster.
Some people like the stuff thats on tv. Personally after they canceled buffy, angel, firefly, and farscape my TV has mostly been regulated to movies and the occasional DVD box set. Popular doesnt always mean good, but conversely it doesnt always mean bad either.
Tell your friend that. Poopy shit barf.
Ask him if he's ever liked a movie but not been sure why. It's the same concept and it happens all of the time.
There's a guy in the drama department of my school who has... interesting opinions on films. He basically hates most things that are popular, is very into anime and manga... well, the point is, he lists Ferris Bueller's Day Off as one of the 5 worst movies ever.
I maintain that he is demonstrably and objectively wrong. Not even because I like the movie, but because there are so many terrible, terrible movies, and again, saying that you dislike something is different than saying it's bad.
On Gangs of New York specifically: I was enjoying it, my girlfriend wasn't enjoying it, and felt sick, so we left before it was early. It really was too long, I think.
I list Star Wars 3 as one of the worst movies ever. Yeah, there are movies like Manos - Hands of Fate, but that thing really didn't have a chance of being good. A multi-million dollar movie with A list celebrities and a wonderful backstory and all we get is something slightly better than the other two piles of shit? "Ooh, but it's dark". So? It made me fall asleep. There is something wrong when someone is riding a lizardy thing fighting a robot in a wheel-mobile and the audience is yawning. But I digress.
I brought this up in some discussion somewhere, and people countered with "What about *insert B-movie piece of shit*? That was way worse!". It's not the same thing. It's hard for an opinion to be wrong, but Ferris Bueller being one of the worst 5 movies ever? Yeah, that's wrong.
I also think a lot of the super hardcore anime fans really get off on the fact that nobody really seems to understand their obsession. I think that's a fairly frequent phenomenon.
I considered not adding that part, but I'm just trying to be honest. I know that I'm contradicting myself there, but it's really how I feel. Personal taste is one thing, but lousy personal taste is something completely different. I asked my boss once if he would accept something as good just because there wasn't something better, or at least he didn't know of anything better, and he told me he would. That attitude bothers me, because he's admitting that he's not even trying. And I know he's not the only one. I almost yelled "THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!" but I didn't want to be a complete dick.
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While you're less off the mark than he is, I still think you're at least using inaccurate terms. Perhaps "most underperforming," "most overrated" (hah), "most disappointing," or something else. Either that or redefine your group- if you're not going to include "Bratz: The Movie" you may as well go ahead and say so.
Eh, tomato tomahto. Many critics consider Ishtar and Hook to be some of the worst movies ever made for the same reasons I listed with SW episode 3. Bratz is a kids movie and kids love it.
edit: How's this.. A prominent artist with a history of creating wonderful art unveils his new painting. Not only is it not that great by his standards, it's pretty awful by any standards. Now compare that to a bad painting of a 6 year old. I would consider the former to be a much larger travesty and therefor 'worse'.
And... really? Hook?
I loved that movie.
Not the Boo Box!
also, i think it depends on the topic being discussed. why you like chocolate over vanilla doesnt mean much to me. why you liked vanilla sky over fight club might be indicative of your personality.
I know, right? I used to love that shit so much, but then I watched it again just a couple months ago and oh wow is it bad. Just opinion, to be sure, but fuck, it was laced with terrible shit start to finish. It has not aged well.
Go see it again. Or don't, if you don't want to tarnish your memories.
I think I may enjoy arguing a little too much.
Personal opinion is personal opinion, but... this man should probably be charged with some sort of crime for this.
Good, and bad are subjective. If you hear a song and you like it you might call it good. Now if you hear a song and it becomes your favorite song, you might say its great. If you never hear a better song then it is in fact a great song to you. However if you hear an even better song, or your tastes change you might decide your old favorite song sucks, and your new favorite song is good. They are all subjective.
There is no such thing as lousy personal taste.
If i like something, why should i devote time an energy to other things when i could just stick to stuff i like? Just because they dont actively seek out other things that they may or may not like doesnt make them wrong. They may be happy with what they have, they may actually enjoy what they listen to, to them it may be great. Everyones personal taste ranks equally. You have no better or worse personal taste than anyone else. Looking down on them because they like things you dont for reasons you cant understand and blaming them for it is not their problem.
We do have nice things, we just dont have nice things you like. That really isnt anyones fault but yours. Im not a music person. I dont mind it as background, i like a bunch of songs but couldnt tell you the names or artists of half of them. I hear them on the radio, i like that song, but dont care to hunt down the title, artist, or other things by said artist. I dont have that much interest in music.
However the first time i talked to our local DJ/promoter i really learned how little i knew about music. This is a woman with over 300 gigs of music of every type, artist, and theme. She listens to the music and finds nuances that complete escape me. When she talks about having to understand 20 years of a particular scenes legacy to really "Get" a particular band i can understand what she means. However its not my thing. Her personal taste is no more valuable than my own, however her ability to mix music together that wealth of people can enjoy is a valuable talent.
let's say quality is a measure of how well something accomplishes it's intended function I have a really good pocket knife. It is very sharp and easy to use and it cuts things well, so it is good. When it comes to art it's much harder to say what the intended function is. it all depends on what you want out of it. as a a hammer my pocket knife doesn't work so well. It is a shitty hammer, but it is still a good pocket knife.
I think pressuring someone to justify their likes is a little lame, though there's a fine line that separates antagonistic pressure from exploratory curiosity. If I love a movie and I find that someone dislikes, I'll probably ask why, especially if I don't know the person really well - one's cultural tastes are often an interesting view into one's personality. If they say they don't know, though, I'll just drop it, because really - who cares?
I kind of lump it in with intuition or 'going with my gut' when I can't explain with examples how I feel a certain way. However, recent studies have shown that it's not bad decision making to listen to your gut.
I think it's fine and natural to not or to like something without an explanation, kind of like belief in a deity.
Just throwing that out there.
Reasons behind everything you like/dislike can be rationalized.
So to the OP: Yes, yes you do.
"This is where I say something profound and you bow, so lets just skip to your part."
Did they further explain why?
"This is where I say something profound and you bow, so lets just skip to your part."
I analyze rather than rationalize. That way I can provide some kind of meaningful criticism, and because if I can identify what about it I don't like I can avoid the particular characteristic of a thing I don't like in other media in the future and not end up writing off things I actually would like that have other characteristics unrelated to my dislike in common with the particular piece I didn't like.
For example, I don't watch Horror movies. I just don't find them scary, so the main reason for watching them is completely lost on me. They might work for someone else, though. At the same time, I'll watch any shitty zombie movie that I can find, because I like zombies and I like crappy B-movies about zombies. I objectively recognize that I'm watching a terrible movie, but I'm completely fine with that; I'm watching it because it's bad. That's at least half the enjoyment.
But I do thing there's such a thing as poor taste. And that's not completely reflective of the person who has it. Sometimes they just don't know any better. I had horrible taste in music before I decided that I was done with commercial radio and started looking for bands on my own. Not everyone is going to do that. But there's worlds of difference between having poor taste because you don't know any better, and having bad taste because you're completely satisfied. You can try a little bit, and it'll make a huge difference.
I think the best personal comparison I could make would be alcohol. I don't drink, at all, and not for any reason more than I just don't like the taste of alcohol. My friends will get me to try various beers, but to me they all taste pretty much the same: like alcohol. That I couldn't tell you why Sleeman's Honey Brown tastes better than Molson's Canadian might be entirely my own fault, but I can't. They both taste like fizzy alcohol to me.
And I try and introduce people to whatever I like, and if they say they don't like it I'll ask them why. For the most part I'll accept their reasons and move on. I actually do a lot of profiling with my friends: slowly testing them with this band, or that movie, trying to figure out exactly what their tastes are. Then one day I can say, "hey, listen to this song, you'll love it," and they do, and I'm happy. I know I've opened my Mom up to a whole world of new music, stuff that she'd never have listened to on her own, and she loves it.
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But see, that right there's a reason. Like if I don't like a movie because it sends the message that all women are good for is pooping out babies and making sandwiches and I think that's fucking retarded, there's my reason for disliking that movie.
Nah, he just tossed it out as a philosophical truth. I think it was more to prevent stupid people in class saying stuff like "Descartes is wrong because...I mean, it's so obvious!"
I fully agree with this. I try to rationalize and explain all of my actions because it's fun and an interesting mental exercise. Being able to rationalize and defend an opinion is a good life skill and provides for interesting conversation.
It's not so much philosophical truth as meaningless philosophical wankery. He's saying that if I can't explain why I think a burger is yummy then I don't really thing a burger is yummy? That's stupid. Or is he redefining "opinion" to require the inclusion of a rational explanation behind that opinion? That's also stupid, and requires we come up with a new word to describe the old concept of opinions.
If you can't explain your opinion, then you can't explain your opinion. So what? It means that useful conversation on the topic is probably out, but it doesn't suddenly mean you don't have one.
God, and philosophers wonder why people hate them.
Quite possibly the worst way to start a sentence. Just because someone can't articulate their opinion, they don't have one? That's absolute fucking nonsense.
I'd agree that the quote's silly as stated, but I'd be comfortable replacing 'opinion' with 'argument.' If you can't explain your argument, then you don't have one.
A critique generally includes both positive and negative criticism before giving a meaningful evaluation. I liked Gangs of New York, while recognizing that Cameron Diaz was utter crap in it, it was probably too long, and the musical cue at the end of the film was one of the worst musical cues in the history of cinema. Beyond that, it had a world-beating performance by Daniel Day Lewis, it told the story of an oft forgotten or glossed over segment of American history, it featured all of Martin Scorsese's typical filmmaking magic in great shots, elaborate camera moves, and taut, tense scenes throughout, etc.. Something along those lines is what I would call a more complete critique than simply saying "I like it here's why" or "I don't like it here's why," because those two options don't offer a full critique.
So obviously I have some strong opinions, for both why I like and dislike many things. I've found that it's really unproductive and ultimately rude to talk about them with certain people who just don't analyze the world around them that way. There's lots more to life than "critique." But when I meet those people who have that same desire to analyze and produce meaning from things, we generally have lots of fun conversations.
But anyway -- I think you do need a reason to like or dislike something if you're going to meaningfully analyze. You don't need these reasons just to enjoy or entertain, though.
The only problem with that, is that your friend would then probably insist that you define "boring".