Watching some Reverend Wright videos to get a better idea of exactly what and how he said what started all this controversy, and I've got to say, that man is one talented, spirited speaker.
Man, I only ever hear about the Wright controversy in terms of this vaguely amorphous idea of what "other people" are going to think about it. I can't imagine anybody actually being offended personally by Wright's comments to the point it would affect their views on Obama. It should be obvious that the controversy is entirely political and that the beliefs of the pastor in no way reflect the beliefs of Obama. Who doesn't have a racist relative tucked away somewhere? And who actually disowns those boneheaded relatives instead of shrugging those flaws off and trying to accept what's good in them. Obama's speech shouldn't be elevating or revealing, this should be obvious and familiar to most people. Everyone knew it, it just had to be addressed because this whole "scandal" is entirely politicized.
On the other hand, cognitive dissonance is a bitch and any remotely negative piece of news can provide fodder for the post-hoc logic some Republicans are needing to justify their anti-Obama intuitions. That's real enough, I suppose.
That might sound angry, but I'm a little jaded after reading a slew of articles claiming that the speech was wonderful but that it won't address the concerns "other people" will continue to have about the Wright connection. Who are these "other people" and why should I give a damn?
Barack's speech was excellent.
Loved every word of it.
Usually, politicians talk about race so poorly and divisively.
Except Obama, he did it eloquently.
Don't be surprised if he wins the nom.
Obama is on the right track.
Thank you for reading my post.
Barack's speech was excellent.
Loved every word of it.
Usually, politicians talk about race so poorly and divisively.
Except Obama, he did it eloquently.
Don't be surprised if he wins the nom.
Obama is on the right track.
Thank you for reading my post.
edit: nevermind - I was thinking of the wrong blue dot thing.
In any case, I loved obama's speech. I know everyone else said it but I liked it too damnit. I'm glad he's got the guts to tackle these social issues head on instead of beating around the bush
I'm watching CBS news right now and they seem to be treating the speech as irrelevant to helpful, maybe kind of. Of course, nothing helps like running a clip of Rush Limbaugh's reaction.
The other forum in which i'm more active on has a copy of it. Wow it's huge. Really huge. I'm quite impressed to be honest and it shows Obama to be a very intelligent man.
Being tortured in Vietnam was a tragedy, but hardly courageous.
Dude, he was offered a chance to go home early, and turned it down. Then suffered greatly for it. What else do you call that?
Don't say stupid.
Fair enough, I'm likely just uninformed of the details of the situation. There are about 100 other details of McCain's policies I disagree with, so I didn't concern myself with researching him as a person.
As others said, his lack of political courage with respect to the waterboarding legislation validates the claim of cowardice.
I can actually shed some light on this, as I am lucky enough to have attended a class in the History US Involvement in Vietnam, offered by the Community College I attend. One of the most important learning experiences of my life, the cornerstone of the class being that every single week we had testimonials from those involved in the era, from a Marine that lied about his age that found himself in midst of Tet '68, to spy plane pilots, to nurses, to war protesters, to a Medal of Honor winner, and even a former POW.
This is pertinent as the man I speak of spent a great deal of that time in a cage just next to John McCain. A man who exchanged his life story with the man via the improvised tapping code. I'm not going to recite the testimonial as it was two years ago now, and the words would ring hollow and inaccurate coming from me. Suffice it to say to hear first-hand from someone who endured it, well Courage is the right word for what they displayed. Courage is keeping yourself throughout that ordeal, courage is staying alive, which is more than some can say.
So courage is apt, which is both most commending of his character and the most damning. I wouldn't call it cowardice that lead him to void a conviction that he should have held to the last. No, it was cunning. I mean that in the worst possible of lights, it doesn't take cowardice to contradict oneself like it takes conniving, it takes cunning, it takes cynicism to sacrifice something like that on his campaign alter. Which I think is, far, far worse.
DHS on
"Grip 'em up, grip 'em, grip 'em good, said the Gryphon... to the pig."
Being tortured in Vietnam was a tragedy, but hardly courageous.
Dude, he was offered a chance to go home early, and turned it down. Then suffered greatly for it. What else do you call that?
Don't say stupid.
Fair enough, I'm likely just uninformed of the details of the situation. There are about 100 other details of McCain's policies I disagree with, so I didn't concern myself with researching him as a person.
As others said, his lack of political courage with respect to the waterboarding legislation validates the claim of cowardice.
I'm writing a paper on why I am voting for Obama. (I will post it in a spoiler for input later.)
I'm in the Air Force ROTC, and I'm very exited that 9 Flag Officers (Generals and Admirals who are highly intelligent and whose opinions are not to be fucked with) are supporting Obama because of his leadership skills over McCain.
I've learned some very basic things about the rotc so far, I'm still new. But before every cadet ever holds a weapon, they are taught over and over about Leadership. We're taught about oral and written communication, decision making, and accepting diversity, different opinions and viewpoints before we ever hold a weapon. I found this pleasantly surprising, but the fact that each student will outrank a few hundred thousand people when they graduate might have a tiny bit to do with it.
McCain could have single-handedly defended the Hot Gates, but if he plans on dancing to the tune of George W. Bush, of course those officers are not going to want anything to do with him, because the current president obviously has no respect for their opinions. Hillary would be going in with her own plans to withdraw immediately, without their input. And though McCain would stay in Iraq until it is secure, he would continue into Iran, and blow up the earth, without their input. Obama is the only candidate who will have respect for what these officers will say, and, ironically, the only candidate who can end the war responsibly.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2008
I realize I am three pages late, I was sleeping.
Regarding McCain and courage: Courage is not a constant. It can and does fail.
Now to go back and read the three pages of the thread and see how badly I was beat'ed.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Courage, sure. But also basic intelligence. If he had went home early his military career would have been over and he would have had zero shot at a political career. I can't speak of his family but I doubt either his father or grandfather would have been too proud of that.
Courage, sure. But also basic intelligence. If he had went home early his military career would have been over and he would have had zero shot at a political career. I can't speak of his family but I doubt either his father or grandfather would have been too proud of that.
Oh come on...You don't have to like the man or his politics, but this line of attack is just retarded.
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GoslingLooking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, ProbablyWatertown, WIRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
And now, another edition of Things My Brain Does At 2 AM During Work To Keep From Going Crazy.
It hit me last night that as long as race is the major issue in the campaign, Hillary- and McCain too, but more Hillary- is skating on a razor's edge, and doesn't even realize it. Likely, none of the three candidates realize it. That edge is due to Obama getting unwitting- and unwanted- help from the most unlikely of sources.
The KKK.
I didn't even think about them at all during the campaign until last night, but now that I have, I'm a bit surprised they haven't shown up yet. When a racial issue gets to be as prolonged as this, the chances increase that sooner or later the KKK will demand a rally somewhere to spout whatever crap is on their minds. That process goes the same way every time:
1. 'No! We can't allow THEM a public forum!'
2. 'It sucks, but we have to. This is the TRUE test of freedom of speech in this country.'
3. 'Yeah, I guess you're right. Dammit.'
4. KKK gets space outside of state capitol or someplace, roped off from the many people who fantasize about the phrases 'KKK' and 'rusted plunger'.
5. Whatever the KKK is on about is immediately denounced.
Now, if you're the KKK- a white power group- you're in Defcon 1 Panic Button Mode right now, because here's a black guy with an ever-increasingly serious shot at filling the most powerful position in the country. Total, utter, final defeat for your cause. You gotta do SOMETHING. But you're also aware that your positions aren't exactly popular, so what you're probably doing now is quietly sending out e-mails to donate to Hillary, and then McCain, doing everything under the radar. Besides, Obama had managed to keep race down into the lower tier of issues for this long, so you haven't had a shot. But now it's been forced upon him, front and center. Now's your chance if you're going to do something. But do you speak out or hold your tounge?
Eventually, the pressure will get too great if race is out there long enough, and some guy in the organization is going to speak up and demand a rally. At that point, cat's out of the bag, everyone else has to go join him. Might as well now.
At that point, the race debate comes to such a screeching halt you'll be able to see skidmarks. Hillary will get a metaphorical Landmaster dropped on her head. Nobody, but NOBODY, is going to want to continue harping on race after the KKK's staked their claim. Obama won't be happy about it, but he'll gain at least 5% across the board from people voting for him just because he's black, out of fear that they'll be painted with the KKK brush if they don't. And Hillary will be powerless to stop it unless SHE wants to get painted with that same brush. If she wants out of the incident with her political career intact, she will only be able to reject/denounce, with no 'but this only highlights this other issue' attached. Then she will sit down, shut up, watch Obama unload on the KKK with virtual impunity, and pray this all goes away before Pennsylvania votes.
It won't. We'll be clear to the convention before anyone dares mention race again. Obama will get the W in the absolute last way he wants to get it, but he'll get it.
tl;dr: The longer the race debate goes on, the greater possibility the KKK gets involved, and if they do, game over man, game over.
Gosling on
I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
Unrelated, but it is fun to watch you work on MyDD.
Glad you think so... but eesh, those people are pugnatious and thickheaded. I'd rather be here, let me tell you.
That said, you've inspired me to go back there when I get to work.
Anyway, Joe Scarbourough on Morning Joe, who is a conservative, says that he thought that it was important that Obama gave the speech, but that he wasn't convinced that Wright never shared the YouTube level of hate to him in private. Buchanan of course is even more cynical.
It's a good question, but I don't see why Obama would lie to them... that could only end up badly.
And now, another edition of Things My Brain Does At 2 AM During Work To Keep From Going Crazy.
The KKK.
tl;dr: The longer the race debate goes on, the greater possibility the KKK gets involved, and if they do, game over man, game over.
Unless higher-ranking members of the KKK are smart enough to work all this out. They can't all be retards. Admittedly, I find it hard to fit KKK and 'cunning plan' into the same sentence.
Courage, sure. But also basic intelligence. If he had went home early his military career would have been over and he would have had zero shot at a political career. I can't speak of his family but I doubt either his father or grandfather would have been too proud of that.
Oh come on...You don't have to like the man or his politics, but this line of attack is just retarded.
It's retarded to assume he has enough basic intelligence that he comprehends shame?
No, no it isn't. I don't even hate John McCain. I just don't think he's the man for the job right now.
Courage, sure. But also basic intelligence. If he had went home early his military career would have been over and he would have had zero shot at a political career. I can't speak of his family but I doubt either his father or grandfather would have been too proud of that.
Oh come on...You don't have to like the man or his politics, but this line of attack is just retarded.
It's retarded to assume he has enough basic intelligence that he comprehends shame?
Suggesting that he stayed because he was considering a future political career is dumb. Yeah, I see your point that it would have been difficult for him to go back, given the circumstances, but I don't think that greatly devalues his choice.
Those who encountered the black man Tuesday said he engaged in erratic behavior, including pointing at random people in the crowd and desperately saying he needs their help, going up to complete strangers and hugging them, and angrily claiming that he is not looking for just a little bit of change, but rather a great deal of change, and that he wants it "right now."
"I'll be honest, when that black guy said he would 'stop at nothing' to get change, it kind of scared me," local mechanic Phil Nighbert said. "Just leave me alone."
Though many were taken aback by the black man's brazen demands, some, such as Jackson, MS's Holly Moser, sympathized with him. She gave the black man credit for boldly standing up and asking every last person around him for change.
"I told him I'd give him some if I saw him later, even though I probably won't," Moser said. "Very nice man, though."
Most, however, ignored his requests.
"I'm a hardworking American who pays his taxes, and the last thing I need is some guy on the street demanding change from me," said William Overkamp, a Springfield, IL gun-shop owner.
He added, "What he really needs is a job."
The Onion can be really good when it's talking about current events. I am a little embarassed I didn't get it until the end part that I quoted, but I blame sleep deprivation.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
Okay, so Huckabee was on Morning Joe this morning, and despite Joe trying to lead him into making the standard Republican talking points, he managed to have the most reasonable reaction the the Wright situation and Obama's speech that I've heard from a conservative. He said, basically, that preachers often get caught up in the moment and that black people growing up in segregation would be justified in having a chip on their shoulder, as most reasonable people would if they had to go through that. What's more, he would not condemn Wright and, like Obama, simply said that he disagreed with the statements. It was so contrary to what Joe was expecting that he had to backpedal a bit from where he was going with the conversation and admit that Huckabee had a point. It's little flashes of honesty that sometimes leave me conflicted on Huckabee (then he starts talking policy and I remember why I wouldn't vote for him).
an admittedly bad habit I picked up from reading too much e.e. Gotta love the English Nazi's though. How about we stay on point now? Sound good to you?
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
edited March 2008
Great, now Obama's gonna have to denounce and reject Mike Huckabee's support.
I have to say that I'm not really all that angry. It's more like resigned acceptance and wariness in my case. The things that actually make me angry are more related to general progressive issues and the asshattery of Republicans and right wing pundits.
I think I'm at about the same place, but I'm probably a little more optimistic than you are. I think that things have gotten better and are getting better - and in some measure further improvements are constricted by hardened attitudes and fatalism.
I'm probably not especially tolerant of "white grievance," but I guess that's not particularly fair on my part. I've had a lot of advantages that a lot of folks haven't.
No, the shit I'm talking about is a lot more subtle. "So what gang is that?" says the white cashier, in a not so jokingly tone, as he points to my tattoo of an e.e cummings poem.
Off topic but that would be the coolest gang ever.
Posts
1 million views. For a response to the fucking State of the Union address. I bet half of those viewers didn't even watch Bush's speech.
George Who?
On the other hand, cognitive dissonance is a bitch and any remotely negative piece of news can provide fodder for the post-hoc logic some Republicans are needing to justify their anti-Obama intuitions. That's real enough, I suppose.
That might sound angry, but I'm a little jaded after reading a slew of articles claiming that the speech was wonderful but that it won't address the concerns "other people" will continue to have about the Wright connection. Who are these "other people" and why should I give a damn?
60-years old. White male. Claims to be the President. Answers to "43". If found, please contact Dick Cheney.
Whichever one it is, it's not big on punctuation.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Loved every word of it.
Usually, politicians talk about race so poorly and divisively.
Except Obama, he did it eloquently.
Don't be surprised if he wins the nom.
Obama is on the right track.
Thank you for reading my post.
Azulan Saul Tigh
Azulan Saul Tigh
Anyone who spends as much time around Richard Armitage as Powell has must, at times, succumb to ragehol.
Also, I liked Obama's speech. It was refreshing.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
It would be tragic if he doesn't become President.
edit: nevermind - I was thinking of the wrong blue dot thing.
In any case, I loved obama's speech. I know everyone else said it but I liked it too damnit. I'm glad he's got the guts to tackle these social issues head on instead of beating around the bush
Dick Che...?
Oh yeah, I know that guy.
He's Barack Obama's cousin or something, right? :?:
On the plus side, whenever someone says something inane about 'reverse racism', we can save a lot of effort and just link to this speech from now on.
I can actually shed some light on this, as I am lucky enough to have attended a class in the History US Involvement in Vietnam, offered by the Community College I attend. One of the most important learning experiences of my life, the cornerstone of the class being that every single week we had testimonials from those involved in the era, from a Marine that lied about his age that found himself in midst of Tet '68, to spy plane pilots, to nurses, to war protesters, to a Medal of Honor winner, and even a former POW.
This is pertinent as the man I speak of spent a great deal of that time in a cage just next to John McCain. A man who exchanged his life story with the man via the improvised tapping code. I'm not going to recite the testimonial as it was two years ago now, and the words would ring hollow and inaccurate coming from me. Suffice it to say to hear first-hand from someone who endured it, well Courage is the right word for what they displayed. Courage is keeping yourself throughout that ordeal, courage is staying alive, which is more than some can say.
So courage is apt, which is both most commending of his character and the most damning. I wouldn't call it cowardice that lead him to void a conviction that he should have held to the last. No, it was cunning. I mean that in the worst possible of lights, it doesn't take cowardice to contradict oneself like it takes conniving, it takes cunning, it takes cynicism to sacrifice something like that on his campaign alter. Which I think is, far, far worse.
I'm writing a paper on why I am voting for Obama. (I will post it in a spoiler for input later.)
I'm in the Air Force ROTC, and I'm very exited that 9 Flag Officers (Generals and Admirals who are highly intelligent and whose opinions are not to be fucked with) are supporting Obama because of his leadership skills over McCain.
I've learned some very basic things about the rotc so far, I'm still new. But before every cadet ever holds a weapon, they are taught over and over about Leadership. We're taught about oral and written communication, decision making, and accepting diversity, different opinions and viewpoints before we ever hold a weapon. I found this pleasantly surprising, but the fact that each student will outrank a few hundred thousand people when they graduate might have a tiny bit to do with it.
McCain could have single-handedly defended the Hot Gates, but if he plans on dancing to the tune of George W. Bush, of course those officers are not going to want anything to do with him, because the current president obviously has no respect for their opinions. Hillary would be going in with her own plans to withdraw immediately, without their input. And though McCain would stay in Iraq until it is secure, he would continue into Iran, and blow up the earth, without their input. Obama is the only candidate who will have respect for what these officers will say, and, ironically, the only candidate who can end the war responsibly.
Regarding McCain and courage: Courage is not a constant. It can and does fail.
Now to go back and read the three pages of the thread and see how badly I was beat'ed.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
It is always said that in democracies, people get the presidents they deserve.
If Obama doesn't become president, that only means America doesn't deserve him.
It hit me last night that as long as race is the major issue in the campaign, Hillary- and McCain too, but more Hillary- is skating on a razor's edge, and doesn't even realize it. Likely, none of the three candidates realize it. That edge is due to Obama getting unwitting- and unwanted- help from the most unlikely of sources.
The KKK.
I didn't even think about them at all during the campaign until last night, but now that I have, I'm a bit surprised they haven't shown up yet. When a racial issue gets to be as prolonged as this, the chances increase that sooner or later the KKK will demand a rally somewhere to spout whatever crap is on their minds. That process goes the same way every time:
1. 'No! We can't allow THEM a public forum!'
2. 'It sucks, but we have to. This is the TRUE test of freedom of speech in this country.'
3. 'Yeah, I guess you're right. Dammit.'
4. KKK gets space outside of state capitol or someplace, roped off from the many people who fantasize about the phrases 'KKK' and 'rusted plunger'.
5. Whatever the KKK is on about is immediately denounced.
Now, if you're the KKK- a white power group- you're in Defcon 1 Panic Button Mode right now, because here's a black guy with an ever-increasingly serious shot at filling the most powerful position in the country. Total, utter, final defeat for your cause. You gotta do SOMETHING. But you're also aware that your positions aren't exactly popular, so what you're probably doing now is quietly sending out e-mails to donate to Hillary, and then McCain, doing everything under the radar. Besides, Obama had managed to keep race down into the lower tier of issues for this long, so you haven't had a shot. But now it's been forced upon him, front and center. Now's your chance if you're going to do something. But do you speak out or hold your tounge?
Eventually, the pressure will get too great if race is out there long enough, and some guy in the organization is going to speak up and demand a rally. At that point, cat's out of the bag, everyone else has to go join him. Might as well now.
At that point, the race debate comes to such a screeching halt you'll be able to see skidmarks. Hillary will get a metaphorical Landmaster dropped on her head. Nobody, but NOBODY, is going to want to continue harping on race after the KKK's staked their claim. Obama won't be happy about it, but he'll gain at least 5% across the board from people voting for him just because he's black, out of fear that they'll be painted with the KKK brush if they don't. And Hillary will be powerless to stop it unless SHE wants to get painted with that same brush. If she wants out of the incident with her political career intact, she will only be able to reject/denounce, with no 'but this only highlights this other issue' attached. Then she will sit down, shut up, watch Obama unload on the KKK with virtual impunity, and pray this all goes away before Pennsylvania votes.
It won't. We'll be clear to the convention before anyone dares mention race again. Obama will get the W in the absolute last way he wants to get it, but he'll get it.
tl;dr: The longer the race debate goes on, the greater possibility the KKK gets involved, and if they do, game over man, game over.
Glad you think so... but eesh, those people are pugnatious and thickheaded. I'd rather be here, let me tell you.
That said, you've inspired me to go back there when I get to work.
Anyway, Joe Scarbourough on Morning Joe, who is a conservative, says that he thought that it was important that Obama gave the speech, but that he wasn't convinced that Wright never shared the YouTube level of hate to him in private. Buchanan of course is even more cynical.
It's a good question, but I don't see why Obama would lie to them... that could only end up badly.
Unless higher-ranking members of the KKK are smart enough to work all this out. They can't all be retards. Admittedly, I find it hard to fit KKK and 'cunning plan' into the same sentence.
It's retarded to assume he has enough basic intelligence that he comprehends shame?
No, no it isn't. I don't even hate John McCain. I just don't think he's the man for the job right now.
Black Guy Asks Nation for Change The Onion can be really good when it's talking about current events. I am a little embarassed I didn't get it until the end part that I quoted, but I blame sleep deprivation.
Not big on capitalization, either, huh?
I denounce and reject your cynicism.
I think I'm at about the same place, but I'm probably a little more optimistic than you are. I think that things have gotten better and are getting better - and in some measure further improvements are constricted by hardened attitudes and fatalism.
I'm probably not especially tolerant of "white grievance," but I guess that's not particularly fair on my part. I've had a lot of advantages that a lot of folks haven't.
Off topic but that would be the coolest gang ever.
You're giving me shit for saying John McCain is smart. Think about that before you respond next time.