and thats assuming I remain too lazy to level engineering for the helm
My alt has had her tankadin goggles since the day she hit level 62. Slacker!
Re: loot council vs. other systems. I think in a perfect world, loot council would be the perfect system. If everyone were as dedicated to maximizing their character's potential and committed to showing up to ever raid as everyone else, then "let's see what you're all wearing, okay it's a bigger upgrade for that guy, grats on ur epix" would be an awesome way of gearing up a raid. Sadly that's not the case for a lot of people. Sometimes I really wish we still used DKP for this reason, because then my 96% lifetime attendance would actually mean something when the next Channeled Elements drop and I potentially have to /roll against a mage we recruited this weekend. But at least our roll/cooldown system prevents a ton of arguments and backstabbing.
Annoyed: People who roll for off-spec gear they plan to use in the future. On Friday we cleared BT, and when we downed council I rolled on the legs for PvP Gear, the other hunter rolled for off-spec (PvP and off-spec are equal in the loot system. I think the only thing that might not be equal would be our fury warrior that off-tanks every now and then and PvP Gear). He started whining on vent about how he might actually use it and it could've been an upgrade, but if that was the case why did he try to get it for free!
Technically off-spec or "I might use it later for a set bonus" has priority over PVP tokens. "I might use it later" is a pretty grey area though. I had to say that myself on Friday, for t6 chest, because it will only be useable if I get Channeled Elements before I get t6 bracers, and only the RNG knows if or when that will actually happen.
Looked at from the standpoint of making the raid successful, a loot system is really just a scheme to distribute loot efficiently that minimizes the chance for exploitation. If you have a raid full of smart people who won't take loot for personal reasons at the expense of raid success, loot council is the best system.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
and thats assuming I remain too lazy to level engineering for the helm
My alt has had her tankadin goggles since the day she hit level 62. Slacker!
Re: loot council vs. other systems. I think in a perfect world, loot council would be the perfect system. If everyone were as dedicated to maximizing their character's potential and committed to showing up to ever raid as everyone else, then "let's see what you're all wearing, okay it's a bigger upgrade for that guy, grats on ur epix" would be an awesome way of gearing up a raid. Sadly that's not the case for a lot of people. Sometimes I really wish we still used DKP for this reason, because then my 96% lifetime attendance would actually mean something when the next Channeled Elements drop and I potentially have to /roll against a mage we recruited this weekend. But at least our roll/cooldown system prevents a ton of arguments and backstabbing.
Every guild I've ever been in has used a relatively fair loot system. The last guild I was in was a bit more "Everyone gets a turn" (Which can get annoying when you get super lucky on loot and can't pick up the Tier piece or weapon that you've wanted for the past month and a half...because the Paladin ALSO needs a 1 hander with Spell damage).
My current guild just /randoms everything from 10 mans and uses a similar system in 25 mans although I've yet to do a 25 man (we're only in SSC, but still! It's an RP server :P) but in Kara it was pretty smooth. I needed one, MAYBE 2 things in the entire instance and most of it was more a sidegrade than anything else. Speaking of picking stuff up, though:
Happy: FINALLY got freaking Mongoose Enchant!
Annoyed: Now to farm up Primals for Might for my Runed Eternium Rod...or buy them at 100 or so gold a pop (Not bad, I have 780-800g, but still, half my gold!?)
That's pretty badass. Is he going to turn it into "Ashbringer"?
Pre-BC on my old server there were tons of guilds in Naxx, and I never saw a single person with it, pretty crazy it dropped for you guys.
afaik, you can't... I think the item exists in the game files but there's no way to obtain it. They've talked about adding it in WotLK, but I'd assume it wouldn't be obtainable with the item currently in game, since they're removing the existing Naxx.
The SM event is really amazing, the Spirit of Mograine comes back and one-shots his son with a spell called "forgiveness."
Heh we've done a few Naxx clears with like half guildies half pugs, and they've gone decently, but the guy who was adamant about running them recently decided to quit raiding and transfer back to his casual guild. (Sigh, mages.) It's sad though cos he was halfway to an Atiesh and also declared that if Corrupted Ashbringer dropped it would go to our prot paladin who has been there tanking every one of these Naxx raids.
Relatedly amusing is how many warriors and/or paladins would join the pug and after awhile ask if Ashbringer would be /random like everything else, and then mysteriously "have to go" when told it was going to our guy.
Happiness: A pally from my guild decided to set up a quick ~2 hour Naxx run on Sundays, clearing out 1 wing a week so folks that missed the content could come check it out. The first run yesterday was an overwhelming success... Corrupted Ashbringer dropped, and we got to take a fun RP stroll through SM afterwards.
he also straight up ninja'd it from a whole bunch of puggers which made a lot of people hate him
Happy/Sad: going to the chiropractor today. Happy Yay possibly feeling good. Sad: Goodbye money, how I loved you so; but alas, it was not "meant... to be."
Hope: I'll break into the 20's on my new scrapper today. BS/Regen, having a blast. Don't know why I suddenly lost interest in my 30's Claw/WP. I was doing Croatoa arcs and having a blast, then just...
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Well, he didn't make any comment until after it'd been handed out, and the RL had said they were equal the boss before.
Well, yea that would suck for the confusion factor. For us, we've had it pretty clear in advance that Tokens-for-PvP will only ever happen if everyone passes on their tier set. In fact I think we then go around to see if there are any offspecs in the raid we can give the tier token for before we allow rolls for PvP.
And even then we've had to basically shard T4 head because not only did everyone have their Tier head, they also had their PvP head.
FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
edited May 2008
So, when exactly did BG's become "I either want to win fast and easy or I'll give up ?" Holy Moley people, just because we are down 100 pts in EOTS or the Horde has 3 locations in AB, why are you saying "Just give it to them so I can start a new bg." Heaven forbid that you should have to work for a win. Heaven forbid that you should learn to never give up, to keep on fighting and scraping because sometimes that makes the difference between winning and losing. Because we all know that WOW is all about instant gratification, right ?
So, yeah, I'm the guy in BG chat telling you to Pull Up Your Panties And Start Fighting. Because giving up whenever things aren't easy soon becomes a habit, and that's not where you want to be.
Our raid was probably 70% guildies, 30% friends of guildies. I was suprised how many people we ended up with, the last time we set up a run we had around 25, and about 10 of them were pure pugs. Yesterday we had 38, and I don't think there was a single person we didn't know. I think (hope) it has something to do with the reformed guild tag, and getting rid of the douchebaggary stigma attached to the previous name. It's amazing how a handful of negative people can reflect so poorly on the rest of the group as a whole.
As for the Ashbringer: Apparently, the folks in the raid that could equip it had already decided to pass it to Com, since he was the one doing all the work coordinating the run... Buying up mats to get folks attuned, etc. He was stunned when they told him it was his; He fully expected to roll on it.
I do hope we get enough regulars to be able to do a full clear at some point.
Happiness: A pally from my guild decided to set up a quick ~2 hour Naxx run on Sundays, clearing out 1 wing a week so folks that missed the content could come check it out. The first run yesterday was an overwhelming success... Corrupted Ashbringer dropped, and we got to take a fun RP stroll through SM afterwards.
he also straight up ninja'd it from a whole bunch of puggers which made a lot of people hate him
that's what some dudes told me, anyway
o.O
There was a good two minutes where everyone told him to take it.... Not one person raised any objections. Heck, he offered to roll on it.
Happiness: A pally from my guild decided to set up a quick ~2 hour Naxx run on Sundays, clearing out 1 wing a week so folks that missed the content could come check it out. The first run yesterday was an overwhelming success... Corrupted Ashbringer dropped, and we got to take a fun RP stroll through SM afterwards.
he also straight up ninja'd it from a whole bunch of puggers which made a lot of people hate him
that's what some dudes told me, anyway
o.O
There was a good two minutes where everyone told him to take it.... Not one person raised any objections. Heck, he offered to roll on it.
well
I heard this from a dude from a dude from a dude from a dude who knew a dude that went to the raid, so it might just be ashbringer envy
No successful endgame guild uses DKP because it causes further incentive for people not to raid.
3/6 Sunwell isn't successful?
*cough*
We use DKP, it works just fine for us. Yes, new people can potentially get lost in the negatives, but so what? Is it a BAD thing to be unable to bid on the hawt new shit while paying off their shiney "all but free" 4/8 T6 and half a dozen other / off spec pieces?
And I don't know how you've heard DKP being done, but we use a "point per hour" system, which is plenty of incentive to raid. Don't raid? Don't get points, and someone else gets shit you probably wanted, and likely for less than they would've if you'd been there to bid on it. :-D
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Not yet, this was the first week. We cleared the DK wing & killed Anub. Several of us have level 60 experience with at least most of the bosses, but at 70 you can nuke stuff down to a degree so it goes quickly.
Hit me up on Sun if you want to go, even for a little while; I think it's planned for Noon-2 server.
From my experience, Loot Council and bid systems, especially silent bid systems, are the worst systems out there. They are so vulnerable to corruption it really just makes for a situation that will eventually (in most guilds) explode.
Straight up DKP per hour is by far my favorite system and is the most balanced toward those who actually dedicate time to raiding. It's straight forward, data that is available to anyone, and almost impossible to argue with.
From my experience, Loot Council and bid systems, especially silent bid systems, are the worst systems out there. They are so vulnerable to corruption it really just makes for a situation that will eventually (in most guilds) explode.
Straight up DKP per hour is by far my favorite system and is the most balanced toward those who actually dedicate time to raiding. It's straight forward, data that is available to anyone, and almost impossible to argue with.
I think generally, it comes down to personal preference. How do you prefer to get your rewards? Hard work? gambling? cronyism? there are systems that cater to each preference.
RE: DKP vs Other systems. There isn't one perfect system out there for everyone. In fact, there is only what works for you. Forar's guild uses DKP and uses it well. Others use Loot Council. My guild just flat out rolls for stuff, sometimes. I haven't done any higher tier raiding with them to know what they actually use.
Happy: I was doing my holiday quests on my paladin and a shaman asked me to tank something for him. I hopped on my warrior and proceeded to speed pull everything. At one point tanking 10 mobs at once (that one room before the 3rd boss with all the stingers and rays. Shit hit the fan). Took about an hour and it felt good.
Hate: Five-mans with only two bosses. Sethekk Halls takes goddamn forever to clear out all the trash, and I only want the libram off the first boss to begin with, so clearing to the end is double-annoying.
There was a point in time where I'd have rather been guildless than raiding with a Loot Council determining who gets what. But it's surprisingly effective, and I've really come to enjoy the lack of bullshit it brings. As my guild's loot policy says:
Who better to determine how much you are contributing to the guild, than those around you every day? And if you think 'corruption' occurs, why be with a guild that you don't trust fully?
And it's true. Why would I want to be in a guild where I didn't trust the other members, and especially if I didn't trust the people in charge?
Hate: C++ cancelled and coming to class today was a bit of a waste (Since I ditched my morning class)
Happy: I get to go home and relax/idle in AV
Hate: I get to go home and idle in AV.
From my experience, Loot Council and bid systems, especially silent bid systems, are the worst systems out there. They are so vulnerable to corruption it really just makes for a situation that will eventually (in most guilds) explode.
I'm curious as to how a silent bid system would be vulnerable to corruption any moreso than anything else? We use the "submit bid, highest bid pays second highest +1" approach, and rigging it in any fashion becomes remarkably complex where we're currently at (Sunwell). Tier tokens across 3 classes, representing a half dozen or more people, and even 'off set' drops are often convertible with a sunmote to be usable by multiple people or classes.
Sometimes it just works out in your favour (getting the first drop of a weapon for min bid because all the other dps are already rocking better) and sometimes 9 people all want something and you pay through the nose.
I agree in T5 and perhaps even early T6 content you could more easily 'rig' things, but if you have people so lost to the loot that they're willing to go to those ends, it becomes noticable, and then you either accept it or you do something about it.
Sure, we ocassionally get people essentially trying to bid others up. It's happened to me a few times. And y'know what, ocassionally they get stuck with something they didn't really want that badly, and they learn not to do it in the future. Or they have to sheepishly withdraw their bid (you're not supposed to be able to do that in our system, but it happens on ocassion).
I further agree that no system is perfect, and I am sure that there are dozens of viable options out there that work well with the right people. I know that I prefer DKP (and have come to embrace silent bid. My old system was open auction) because even if I raid for 3 months without a single thing I want dropping, I'm essentially earning 'clout' to declare a desire to pick up something down the road. Whether that clout leads to me getting the item for next to nothing, paying heavily, or making someone else pay heavily for it is irrelavent.
Also, for the most part it's self correcting. After a few months of BT/MH farming we had dozens of people with hundreds of points stocked up. I'll tell you this; 1 month of Sunwell will bleed dkp out of there HARD.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Also, for the most part it's self correcting. After a few months of BT/MH farming we had dozens of people with hundreds of points stocked up. I'll tell you this; 1 month of Sunwell will bleed dkp out of there HARD.
This, this is the one place where my guild's system fails spectacularly. We're at this point where we've been farming Hyjal and BT for a long time, so most people except recent recruits are down to only needing one or two more things from those instances. But there's no way in our system to compensate people for continuing to show up once they have everything they need pre-Sunwell, and there's no way to ensure that people take turns on look when everyone will soon be on equal footing because they haven't won something recently, so the people who've been waiting for an item for three or four weeks have the same chance as the people who still win things every five raids. We have one clause built in to help this, which is that if you haven't won something in twenty raids attended, you get first dibs on the next thing you want and don't have to /roll against the other off-cooldown people. But even this is going to fail soon unless we start farming things in Sunwell too.
In our system, we do DKP, but we do it bidding style (I like it, kinda exciting).
Warrior/Sham/? bracers went for 600DKP. 600... putting this in comparison terms, tempests of chaos recently went for 200-300, bulwark for illidan went for 590. Bracers... wow.
Haha, we had a roughly similar thing happen on our first kill. We have an open bidding system as well, but with a dkp cap (instead of decay) to prevent too much inflation (and a bit of buffer between max-bid and dkp cap so capped people can still pick up loot without risking their pole position). The cap is equivalent to about 5 weeks of raiding. Anyway, our first sets of bracers went for about half of a max-bid, but they've plummetted in value since then. With 3 tokens per week, if you're going to punt on items, set pieces are definitely the way to go. It's only been a month since we first killed him and I'm going to get defaulted the next set of bracers that drop for min bid
DKP systems succeed in doing a lot of inevitabilities in relation to loot distribution. They can (and usually will):
1. Cause people to pass on definite upgrades because it devaules their points in a system, even though something is an upgrade resulting in a lot of Voids.
2. Completely ignore lapses in itemization where lower, or 0 point valued items are better than higher valued items (see: DST, craftable gear, Arena weapons, etc.)
3. Throw new people off the boat. Regardless of how systems decay, if you enter a raid to gear up and everyone had gear, you'll be at a deficit for quite some time. Alternately, if everyone is gaining at the same rate new people go no where in a system where points aren't being spent.
This can happen in some systems (uncapped zero-sum being the worst) but this is not inherent to the DKP model itself. Our basic system : Open bid, 3 dkp min bid, 90 dkp max bid, 100 dkp cap. On spec > Off spec > PvP. DKP is earned at approximately 2 dkp per hour, with sometimes bonus dkp for progression learning and first kills and reduced earnings for farm content.
For point one, nobody passes on upgrades that would otherwise be sharded since the cost to pick them up is about two hours of raiding (ie not much). Occasionally off-spec stuff will rot but it usually gets taken if there is any use. Most of our ferals and spriests have pretty sick healing gear, and a couple paladins now have solid prot gear (which is now being a huge boost on Felmyst, since we don't normally have a prot pally).
For point two, the item valuation is done solely by the players so higher item-level but worse performance items will go for less than their better itemized counterparts. This also lets classes value the same item differently - what might be a huge upgrade for a fire mage and a minor upgrade for a shadow priest is not going to go for the high mage price to the priest (assuming the mages bid up).
For point three, the min bid lets new players gear up cheaply without throwing them in a huge hole. Our most recent resto druid has picked up 9 pieces of gear (including 3 T6) for about half a max bid total, which is what the last Cloak of the Illidari Council or Stormrage Signet Ring went for. She's also still in positive dkp (though just barely).
It's not perfect, but one thing that it does do is make sure that all decisions are open and deterministic (no hidden corruption - collusion on class specific stuff can and does occur, but it's minor and there are too many interested parties for cross-class stuff) and allows each individual player to make the valuation decisions instead of having them be determined by someone else.
I have yet to be in a guild with a good loot system. in one of my old guilds, 'loot council' was the method. in 4 months of clearing AQ40 and a lot of Naxx, with perfect attendance, I received one item. The officers and their cronies got loot off of pretty much every boss.
Then I moved to a DKP guild. I was excited - DKP is fair, right? They used an 'upgrade' DKP system, which meant that, if you previously got an item for a slot with the guild, any new item you get for that slot only cost the difference in points between the two items. so, if you had your tier 2.5 head for 19 points and the tier 3 head worth 21 points drops, you get it for 2 points. Long story short, it meant that the dkp standings never changed, except for new guildies, who plummeted fast. every single old timer in the guild would have to get every single item they ever even dreamed of getting, even for an off set, before you could get an item.
anyway, now I'm in a position of power in a guild moving into 25 mans and we still need a fair system. we've just been /rolling so far. I believe in the potential of dkp systems but I don't know how to ensure that one would be fair. for instance, we want to reward attendance most importantly, but you can't reward attendance and have a zero-sum system at the same time, right?
Can someone link a free and easy to use dkp site their guild has had wild success with? =P
RE: Loot Systems. Every time I see this discussion fire up, I'm reminded of why I don't try harder to get into a true guild. Yeah, I'd like to run some more heroics or maybe even Kara but frankly with my schedule stuff like this is more trouble than its worth to me.
Happy: My guild uses EP/GP, but we rarely ever even have to look up who has priority on something. When somebody needs an up, we pass to them. No one ever suggests that anyone do this, they just do. I think the trick is to get into a guild that genuinely needs the players. I want to progress, so I want my guildies geared up.
In fact, we're thinking of dumping the system entirely for 10 mans and just rolling - since it's more trouble to keep track of then it's worth.
We just /roll in 10's, I don't think a DKP system is neccessary there. People usually pass if something is going to be a major upgrade for someone else, or if they've been waiting on a specific item for a long time.
Well, to be fair, with only 10 people on board it's a lot less likely to have overlap than with 25.
Far as I know, neither my old nor new guild have ever used DKP for 10 mans; we use rolls when necessary and often just pass things to people unless the item is highly sought after.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
From my experience, Loot Council and bid systems, especially silent bid systems, are the worst systems out there. They are so vulnerable to corruption it really just makes for a situation that will eventually (in most guilds) explode.
I'm curious as to how a silent bid system would be vulnerable to corruption any moreso than anything else?
I've been in a guild with a silent bid system, and I saw rampant abuse of it by the officers and their friends. Here is how it panned out:
OfficerA: Okay, The untamed blade dropped, everyone send me your silent bids.
MemberB Whispers to OfficerA: 50 dkp
OfficerA whispers his friend in the guild MemberC: pssst, MemberB just bid 50 dkp, if you want it, overbid him.
10 seconds pass
OfficerA: And MemberC wins Untamed blade with a bid of 52 dkp! Congrats!!
They would usually overbid by 1 or 2 points, sometimes even 3 to make it seem like they were legitimate bids, but eventually they were found out and SS's were released showing all of this bullshit.
Open bid systems can be just as bad. There was a warrior who had it out for a hunter once, when the hunter bid on the Untamed blade, the warrior bidded just to spite him. The warrior literally made the hunter spend every single dkp point he had, even though the warrior didn't want the sword to begin with. The whole auction bid system is pure shit when you get 1 or 2 assholes who want to abuse it, it's easy to do.
If i had the knowledge and wasn't totally fucking lazy, i'd make a mod that would have a seperate window, and people would enter a bid into their own field, and that bid is hidden from everyone until all the people bidding, have. Should stop the whispers and shit.
Posts
Pre-BC on my old server there were tons of guilds in Naxx, and I never saw a single person with it, pretty crazy it dropped for you guys.
My alt has had her tankadin goggles since the day she hit level 62. Slacker!
Re: loot council vs. other systems. I think in a perfect world, loot council would be the perfect system. If everyone were as dedicated to maximizing their character's potential and committed to showing up to ever raid as everyone else, then "let's see what you're all wearing, okay it's a bigger upgrade for that guy, grats on ur epix" would be an awesome way of gearing up a raid. Sadly that's not the case for a lot of people. Sometimes I really wish we still used DKP for this reason, because then my 96% lifetime attendance would actually mean something when the next Channeled Elements drop and I potentially have to /roll against a mage we recruited this weekend. But at least our roll/cooldown system prevents a ton of arguments and backstabbing.
Technically off-spec or "I might use it later for a set bonus" has priority over PVP tokens. "I might use it later" is a pretty grey area though. I had to say that myself on Friday, for t6 chest, because it will only be useable if I get Channeled Elements before I get t6 bracers, and only the RNG knows if or when that will actually happen.
Run me through SFK and we can be cool again.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Every guild I've ever been in has used a relatively fair loot system. The last guild I was in was a bit more "Everyone gets a turn" (Which can get annoying when you get super lucky on loot and can't pick up the Tier piece or weapon that you've wanted for the past month and a half...because the Paladin ALSO needs a 1 hander with Spell damage).
My current guild just /randoms everything from 10 mans and uses a similar system in 25 mans although I've yet to do a 25 man (we're only in SSC, but still! It's an RP server :P) but in Kara it was pretty smooth. I needed one, MAYBE 2 things in the entire instance and most of it was more a sidegrade than anything else. Speaking of picking stuff up, though:
Happy: FINALLY got freaking Mongoose Enchant!
Annoyed: Now to farm up Primals for Might for my Runed Eternium Rod...or buy them at 100 or so gold a pop (Not bad, I have 780-800g, but still, half my gold!?)
afaik, you can't... I think the item exists in the game files but there's no way to obtain it. They've talked about adding it in WotLK, but I'd assume it wouldn't be obtainable with the item currently in game, since they're removing the existing Naxx.
The SM event is really amazing, the Spirit of Mograine comes back and one-shots his son with a spell called "forgiveness."
Relatedly amusing is how many warriors and/or paladins would join the pug and after awhile ask if Ashbringer would be /random like everything else, and then mysteriously "have to go" when told it was going to our guy.
he also straight up ninja'd it from a whole bunch of puggers which made a lot of people hate him
that's what some dudes told me, anyway
Hope: I'll break into the 20's on my new scrapper today. BS/Regen, having a blast. Don't know why I suddenly lost interest in my 30's Claw/WP. I was doing Croatoa arcs and having a blast, then just...
Well, yea that would suck for the confusion factor. For us, we've had it pretty clear in advance that Tokens-for-PvP will only ever happen if everyone passes on their tier set. In fact I think we then go around to see if there are any offspecs in the raid we can give the tier token for before we allow rolls for PvP.
And even then we've had to basically shard T4 head because not only did everyone have their Tier head, they also had their PvP head.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
So, yeah, I'm the guy in BG chat telling you to Pull Up Your Panties And Start Fighting. Because giving up whenever things aren't easy soon becomes a habit, and that's not where you want to be.
As for the Ashbringer: Apparently, the folks in the raid that could equip it had already decided to pass it to Com, since he was the one doing all the work coordinating the run... Buying up mats to get folks attuned, etc. He was stunned when they told him it was his; He fully expected to roll on it.
I do hope we get enough regulars to be able to do a full clear at some point.
I do hear a lot of "i still haven't run into somebody in that guild that isn't an asshole"
but that mostly comes from assholes, so fuck 'em
o.O
There was a good two minutes where everyone told him to take it.... Not one person raised any objections. Heck, he offered to roll on it.
well
I heard this from a dude from a dude from a dude from a dude who knew a dude that went to the raid, so it might just be ashbringer envy
3/6 Sunwell isn't successful?
*cough*
We use DKP, it works just fine for us. Yes, new people can potentially get lost in the negatives, but so what? Is it a BAD thing to be unable to bid on the hawt new shit while paying off their shiney "all but free" 4/8 T6 and half a dozen other / off spec pieces?
And I don't know how you've heard DKP being done, but we use a "point per hour" system, which is plenty of incentive to raid. Don't raid? Don't get points, and someone else gets shit you probably wanted, and likely for less than they would've if you'd been there to bid on it. :-D
And if anyone *is* an asshole, we actually care about that now.... So let me know.
have you guys done all 4 wings once yet?
Hit me up on Sun if you want to go, even for a little while; I think it's planned for Noon-2 server.
Straight up DKP per hour is by far my favorite system and is the most balanced toward those who actually dedicate time to raiding. It's straight forward, data that is available to anyone, and almost impossible to argue with.
I think generally, it comes down to personal preference. How do you prefer to get your rewards? Hard work? gambling? cronyism? there are systems that cater to each preference.
Happy: I was doing my holiday quests on my paladin and a shaman asked me to tank something for him. I hopped on my warrior and proceeded to speed pull everything. At one point tanking 10 mobs at once (that one room before the 3rd boss with all the stingers and rays. Shit hit the fan). Took about an hour and it felt good.
Who better to determine how much you are contributing to the guild, than those around you every day? And if you think 'corruption' occurs, why be with a guild that you don't trust fully?
And it's true. Why would I want to be in a guild where I didn't trust the other members, and especially if I didn't trust the people in charge?
Hate: C++ cancelled and coming to class today was a bit of a waste (Since I ditched my morning class)
Happy: I get to go home and relax/idle in AV
Hate: I get to go home and idle in AV.
I'm curious as to how a silent bid system would be vulnerable to corruption any moreso than anything else? We use the "submit bid, highest bid pays second highest +1" approach, and rigging it in any fashion becomes remarkably complex where we're currently at (Sunwell). Tier tokens across 3 classes, representing a half dozen or more people, and even 'off set' drops are often convertible with a sunmote to be usable by multiple people or classes.
Sometimes it just works out in your favour (getting the first drop of a weapon for min bid because all the other dps are already rocking better) and sometimes 9 people all want something and you pay through the nose.
I agree in T5 and perhaps even early T6 content you could more easily 'rig' things, but if you have people so lost to the loot that they're willing to go to those ends, it becomes noticable, and then you either accept it or you do something about it.
Sure, we ocassionally get people essentially trying to bid others up. It's happened to me a few times. And y'know what, ocassionally they get stuck with something they didn't really want that badly, and they learn not to do it in the future. Or they have to sheepishly withdraw their bid (you're not supposed to be able to do that in our system, but it happens on ocassion).
I further agree that no system is perfect, and I am sure that there are dozens of viable options out there that work well with the right people. I know that I prefer DKP (and have come to embrace silent bid. My old system was open auction) because even if I raid for 3 months without a single thing I want dropping, I'm essentially earning 'clout' to declare a desire to pick up something down the road. Whether that clout leads to me getting the item for next to nothing, paying heavily, or making someone else pay heavily for it is irrelavent.
Also, for the most part it's self correcting. After a few months of BT/MH farming we had dozens of people with hundreds of points stocked up. I'll tell you this; 1 month of Sunwell will bleed dkp out of there HARD.
This, this is the one place where my guild's system fails spectacularly. We're at this point where we've been farming Hyjal and BT for a long time, so most people except recent recruits are down to only needing one or two more things from those instances. But there's no way in our system to compensate people for continuing to show up once they have everything they need pre-Sunwell, and there's no way to ensure that people take turns on look when everyone will soon be on equal footing because they haven't won something recently, so the people who've been waiting for an item for three or four weeks have the same chance as the people who still win things every five raids. We have one clause built in to help this, which is that if you haven't won something in twenty raids attended, you get first dibs on the next thing you want and don't have to /roll against the other off-cooldown people. But even this is going to fail soon unless we start farming things in Sunwell too.
Haha, we had a roughly similar thing happen on our first kill. We have an open bidding system as well, but with a dkp cap (instead of decay) to prevent too much inflation (and a bit of buffer between max-bid and dkp cap so capped people can still pick up loot without risking their pole position). The cap is equivalent to about 5 weeks of raiding. Anyway, our first sets of bracers went for about half of a max-bid, but they've plummetted in value since then. With 3 tokens per week, if you're going to punt on items, set pieces are definitely the way to go. It's only been a month since we first killed him and I'm going to get defaulted the next set of bracers that drop for min bid
This can happen in some systems (uncapped zero-sum being the worst) but this is not inherent to the DKP model itself. Our basic system : Open bid, 3 dkp min bid, 90 dkp max bid, 100 dkp cap. On spec > Off spec > PvP. DKP is earned at approximately 2 dkp per hour, with sometimes bonus dkp for progression learning and first kills and reduced earnings for farm content.
For point one, nobody passes on upgrades that would otherwise be sharded since the cost to pick them up is about two hours of raiding (ie not much). Occasionally off-spec stuff will rot but it usually gets taken if there is any use. Most of our ferals and spriests have pretty sick healing gear, and a couple paladins now have solid prot gear (which is now being a huge boost on Felmyst, since we don't normally have a prot pally).
For point two, the item valuation is done solely by the players so higher item-level but worse performance items will go for less than their better itemized counterparts. This also lets classes value the same item differently - what might be a huge upgrade for a fire mage and a minor upgrade for a shadow priest is not going to go for the high mage price to the priest (assuming the mages bid up).
For point three, the min bid lets new players gear up cheaply without throwing them in a huge hole. Our most recent resto druid has picked up 9 pieces of gear (including 3 T6) for about half a max bid total, which is what the last Cloak of the Illidari Council or Stormrage Signet Ring went for. She's also still in positive dkp (though just barely).
It's not perfect, but one thing that it does do is make sure that all decisions are open and deterministic (no hidden corruption - collusion on class specific stuff can and does occur, but it's minor and there are too many interested parties for cross-class stuff) and allows each individual player to make the valuation decisions instead of having them be determined by someone else.
Then I moved to a DKP guild. I was excited - DKP is fair, right? They used an 'upgrade' DKP system, which meant that, if you previously got an item for a slot with the guild, any new item you get for that slot only cost the difference in points between the two items. so, if you had your tier 2.5 head for 19 points and the tier 3 head worth 21 points drops, you get it for 2 points. Long story short, it meant that the dkp standings never changed, except for new guildies, who plummeted fast. every single old timer in the guild would have to get every single item they ever even dreamed of getting, even for an off set, before you could get an item.
anyway, now I'm in a position of power in a guild moving into 25 mans and we still need a fair system. we've just been /rolling so far. I believe in the potential of dkp systems but I don't know how to ensure that one would be fair. for instance, we want to reward attendance most importantly, but you can't reward attendance and have a zero-sum system at the same time, right?
Can someone link a free and easy to use dkp site their guild has had wild success with? =P
In fact, we're thinking of dumping the system entirely for 10 mans and just rolling - since it's more trouble to keep track of then it's worth.
Far as I know, neither my old nor new guild have ever used DKP for 10 mans; we use rolls when necessary and often just pass things to people unless the item is highly sought after.
1#: 20
2#: 30
1#: 31
2#: 400!
1#: pass.
you really get into it.
I've been in a guild with a silent bid system, and I saw rampant abuse of it by the officers and their friends. Here is how it panned out:
OfficerA: Okay, The untamed blade dropped, everyone send me your silent bids.
MemberB Whispers to OfficerA: 50 dkp
OfficerA whispers his friend in the guild MemberC: pssst, MemberB just bid 50 dkp, if you want it, overbid him.
10 seconds pass
OfficerA: And MemberC wins Untamed blade with a bid of 52 dkp! Congrats!!
They would usually overbid by 1 or 2 points, sometimes even 3 to make it seem like they were legitimate bids, but eventually they were found out and SS's were released showing all of this bullshit.
Open bid systems can be just as bad. There was a warrior who had it out for a hunter once, when the hunter bid on the Untamed blade, the warrior bidded just to spite him. The warrior literally made the hunter spend every single dkp point he had, even though the warrior didn't want the sword to begin with. The whole auction bid system is pure shit when you get 1 or 2 assholes who want to abuse it, it's easy to do.
But alas, lazy and stupid...