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Contrast in games / good vs. evil

HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
edited March 2008 in Games and Technology
This past week I finally found the right words to summarize my appreciation of The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker (let alone the reason why it is my favorite game in the series): a great depiction of good vs. evil. I was happy to find those words because now I can back it up more than ever (be more specific that is).

I started to take a look at games sitting on my shelf, or games I see discussed now and then - moreso at the games that have that general theme of good vs. evil. Not a lot have them have that exactly (that is, just because there is an enemy or 'bad guy' doesn't mean they are evil, necessarily).

The Diablo series is probably the most direct, what with the player venturing into Hell to kill the devil himself. The entire experience in the game shows us the world with demons in it. The player is a step behind the enemy, and the evil is always there waiting for him or her. So we don't see the contrast, we don't see the world when it is normal, more at peace, without demons murdering everyone in their homes and leaving corpses on pikes and stuff. It's just a grim setting, and nothing more. The color use in the game is also a very strong buffer to that. Everything is dull. The music, as well, doesn't stray far from the general theme of the game. It was a fun game, but it didn't necessarily bring about any excitement.

Sticking with Blizzard for a quick moment - The Warcraft series has always been about exaggeration in everything. With the third game and WoW, however, we finally have a faction to identify as being evil. And its members are generally gray or black in color, with very dull color use (aside from the Mountain-Dew-green the Legion adores, or the felguards being bright colors in their unarmored parts).

Castlevania has the good vs. evil setting as well. Again, the areas in the latest round of games in the series are generally grim and dark. The color use has more of a mix to it, because nothing has been absolutely dull, due to a mix of the occasional vibrant color (or hell, just pure use of it; I think the GBA games generally had that because it was the GBA though) (exceptions off the top of my head being Symphony of the Night and Lament of Innocence). The contrast (what I like, that is) would be the music, whenever it manages to be upbeat (Portrait of Ruin has a lot of that going on, and now that I wrote that I find it no surprise it is my favorite in that series). The series works well with toned down, slower / appropriate music, or with the above I noted. The contrast gives the game life, or its sparkles, I believe.

Disgaea put a fantastic spin on good vs. evil, but more than that it was just as animated (not literally) as Wind Waker. The characters had a lot of personality to them, and the abilities in the game were so exaggerated it was simple nonsense. But it was different, and it was a great tone to eat up.

Now would be the best time to bring up Wind Waker I suppose. I remember the "More like Cel-da" crap just as much as anyone. People either liked it, dismissed the art because they enjoyed the game in some other way, or didn't like the sailing or couldn't get over the art. The game in its entirety is the best depiction of good vs. evil (as I've said). I remember someone quoting the original maker(s) of Zelda, saying they wanted their music to be a blend of charm and menace, and this game hits it just right (with more than the music). Ganondorf is massive, and his most outstanding features, color wise, are his hair and the yellow crests on his forehead and his chest. In his movement he is either very subtle (nods, or walks slowly) or extremely quick. He speaks well, clashing with his brute size. Just awesome.

Our hero is the opposite of Ganondorf in just about every way. He's very vibrant in color, very animated, doesn't speak at all. We also get constant reminders of him being what he is - a kid. It would be the facial expressions, or any other silly going-ons in the game (firing from the canon at the start is great).

The game's pace and settings do a good job of getting that good vs. evil bit across as well. The fortress island is devoid of an array of colors. We know it is a bad place looking at it. Yet in the safety of Outside Isle and other towns, we know things are just peachy keen there. There's the island that has been assaulted already, broken into pieces, and appears more dull in color (while it is perpetually raining there, the color theme is still what is setting that). And I don't need to bring up those shots of Hyrule, as they're fairly obvious.

If there was a simple point I wanted to say, all of the above being evidence, it'd be that I absolutely adore diverse and / or exaggerated things in video games.

When everything takes a "Let's make it as close to real looking as possible" standpoint in the design, it becomes bland. It's like the difference between getting a cake on your birthday that's just like, y'know, some candles and frosting, and then getting a cake that has a lot of design on it, maybe some M&M's sprinkled on it too. Both ways are good, but why not be impressed and feel like you're getting something special, right?

There are people that believe that games where bright colors, or characters or settings, are used aren't meant for adults, that they are 'tehkiddy' or whatever the hell they say these days. I really disagree. Whenever the industry gets a bright, vibrant kick in the ass, I gladly accept it.

Edit - I missed a few words toward the end there.

Henroid on
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    BoylingBoyling Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    That's an interesting observation right there, but I think there's a lot to discover in dialogue and story as well in a lot of games, aside of graphical styles and music.

    Wind Waker spoiler
    I don't remember everything word for word right now, but I seem to recall Ganondorf having a very interesting monologue in Wind Waker (about his origin). That's what struck me the most when I played it, that they actually went so far as to make him a little human as well.

    Edit: Haha, there was a pretty bitter recap of the monologue here :Dhttp://www.videogamerecaps.com/recaps/recaps.php?game=17&recap=186&page=5

    Boyling on
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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Yes, Ganondorf's speech at the end is awesome.

    Here are some end-game Ganondorf quotes, spoilered:
    My country lay within a vast desert, when the sun rose into the sky a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came the wind carried the same thing... Death. But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that wind, I suppose. It can only be called fate... That here, I would again gather the three with the crests... That I should lay my hand on that which grants the wishes of the beholder... That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down... The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!
    Very well, then... Allow me to show you... Your future... Yes... Allow me to show you... Just what hope you have...See how much your precious Triforce is worth!

    And my favorite...
    (After being dealt a death-blow by Link) The wind... it is blowing...

    UnbreakableVow on
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    randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    But Gannondorf and Link in Wind Waker isn't really the stereotypical clash of obviously good vs. obviously evil. As said it was more like he was a victim of circumstance then a bad guy who does bad things because he is bad.

    I think more can be said about a game that doesn't just use plainly obvious good vs evil characters.

    Take KOTOR 2 for instance. Not only does it make the characters more interesting and engaging but it makes them seem a lot more human when they aren't just cardboard cutouts.

    randombattle on
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    augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Boyling wrote: »
    That's an interesting observation right there, but I think there's a lot to discover in dialogue and story as well in a lot of games, aside of graphical styles and music.

    Wind Waker spoiler
    I don't remember everything word for word right now, but I seem to recall Ganondorf having a very interesting monologue in Wind Waker (about his origin). That's what struck me the most when I played it, that they actually went so far as to make him a little human as well.

    Edit: Haha, there was a pretty bitter recap of the monologue here :Dhttp://www.videogamerecaps.com/recaps/recaps.php?game=17&recap=186&page=5

    Is that shit supposed to be funny?

    august on
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    KVWKVW Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Wouldn't Link to the Past be the perfect game based on everything you just said? You start out with the coup as you try to free Zelda. You journey through the vibrant world and then get shunted off to the mirror image dark world after failing to keep Zelda safe, back when this wasnt a running cliche with every adventure game and Zelda's in particular, and then constantly going back and forth between the light and dark.

    And you put way too much emphasis on the colour pallet. It sounds like all you care about is the cell shaded art and that's why you make Wind Waker the best game evar. Twilight Princess went the dingy 'next gen brown' route, but Link to the Past, OoT and Majora's Mask still destroy Wind Waker in terms of story, originality (all 3 introduce new concepts, WW is devoid of anything except the fact you spend more time sailing than actually playing), innovation and a little thing called fun.

    You can like WW. I have no problem with it, but your whole argument about colours is way off and you choose to compare WW to a couple of Blizzard games that were far from being story based and weren't even trying to do anything along the lines of what you were looking for. However, you should have compared it to previous Zelda games, not other unrelated series. YOu may as well have used Mega Man for your examples since you didnt care about using fair comparisons and just want to make Wind Waker look better to prove your point.

    Simple fact is, out the beautiful cell shading, Wind Waker had nothing to offer. It was rushed, had dungeons scrapped, such as the third one where you bomb the fish out, forces the player to sail around for hours on end looking for triforce pieces or just to get anywhere in the game and offers nothing new to the series. No unique weapons or new characters people should care about and no new dungeon or boss concepts. The cell shading is all it has going for it and it is easily one of hte worst Zelda games in the series. That doesn't make it a bad game, but it's like Mario Sunshine. It's just not the same quality as the rest of the series.

    KVW on
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    It's funny because I think Majora's Mask is among the weakest of Zelda games.

    A game can be good for its presentation y'know, You seem to focus on whether or not you're having fun. Which is fine, that's not a wrong way to like a game.

    I had fun with Wind Waker.

    Henroid on
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    GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    I like the way 40k handles good versus evil. I think it really does a good job with it.

    Goomba on
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    KVW wrote: »
    you choose to compare WW to a couple of Blizzard games...

    While I am using Wind Waker as an example in my thoughts on things, the thread isn't about it solely, nor was I comparing the other games to it. I was giving my point of view on how they stack up their good vs. evil portrayal.

    Henroid on
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    SonnySonny Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I liked how Fable dealt with the good vs evil thing. Although that "major choice" was weak...

    Sonny on
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    BoylingBoyling Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    august wrote: »
    Boyling wrote: »
    That's an interesting observation right there, but I think there's a lot to discover in dialogue and story as well in a lot of games, aside of graphical styles and music.

    Wind Waker spoiler
    I don't remember everything word for word right now, but I seem to recall Ganondorf having a very interesting monologue in Wind Waker (about his origin). That's what struck me the most when I played it, that they actually went so far as to make him a little human as well.

    Edit: Haha, there was a pretty bitter recap of the monologue here :Dhttp://www.videogamerecaps.com/recaps/recaps.php?game=17&recap=186&page=5

    Is that shit supposed to be funny?

    I don't know, it seems pretty brainless to me.

    Boyling on
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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    KVW: WW brought back the Triforce hunt, which was easily the coolest part of any Zelda game for me. Gives you the sense of actually having to work to find these things, instead of being a linear path like in OoT.

    OoT was all like "Hey, you happen to need the Forest Medallion next and it just so happens that the Forest Temple just became accessible."

    UnbreakableVow on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    It's all in the eyebrows.

    You can tell instantly if a supposedly good character is going to turn out to be evil judging from their eyebrows.

    The_Scarab on
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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    It's all in the eyebrows.

    You can tell instantly if a supposedly good character is going to turn out to be evil judging from their eyebrows.

    Lost_Odyssey.jpg

    Spot the villain!

    UnbreakableVow on
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    gilraingilrain Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Indeed, a reasoned argument! In addition, I posit that
    RIGHT IN THE FUCKING HEAD!!!

    gilrain on
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    VytaeVytae Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    In the end the vast majority of games these days there is no real good or evil,simply points of view. One mans evil is another mans good. This reflects our society and how its generally floating out of contact of reality.

    Ive always preffered Fallouts view of things : Sometimes good men do bad things,but that dosent make them evil. Likewise,Sometimes badmen do good things,against,dosent make them good.

    And the best games for depicting good and evil have nothing to do with colors and such,its all about presentation. In Diablo 2 evil is obviously evil,but in the end of act 3 cutscene you find out how evil evil really is. No fucking misguided children here.

    I don't really like The warhammers depiction of good and evil,because that universe is empty of hope and so gets dull really fast because you know no matter what game your playing or book your reading good never gets more then a temporary pyhrric victory at best.

    Edit: And also eyebrows arent the sole determinator of evil. Long flowing hair and effeminate features and generally oversized swords are good indicators too. Not to be confused with Spiky haired people with oversized swords. There's something about spiky hair that allows the evil to flow out keeping the person good.

    Vytae on
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    l337CrappyJackl337CrappyJack Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    This thread's gone on too long without mention of The Witcher, a game that throws the whole notion of good vs. evil in player choice right out the window. You NEVER encounter a situation where one side is good and the other bad; it's just a series of choices. Helping someone out at some point in the game could mean that a friend of yours is murdered down the road; not helping them means a large amount of innocents die. That's about the clearest decision you have in the game, and you don't even realize it has consequences until hours of gameplay later.

    l337CrappyJack on
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    PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    It's all in the eyebrows.

    You can tell instantly if a supposedly good character is going to turn out to be evil judging from their eyebrows.

    Oh shit. American Boxart Kirby is gonna start eating everyone! Oh wait, he already does that. Carry on.

    Peewi on
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    Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    When everything takes a "Let's make it as close to real looking as possible" standpoint in the design, it becomes bland. It's like the difference between getting a cake on your birthday that's just like, y'know, some candles and frosting, and then getting a cake that has a lot of design on it, maybe some M&M's sprinkled on it too. Both ways are good, but why not be impressed and feel like you're getting something special, right?

    You, my friend, get it.

    I really see this whole push towards photorealism as the slow death of style in video games. Everyone is so concerned about making their game look super real that they've forgotten that style is what really makes a game stand out.

    Colour pallette, character design, continuity in scenery design... these are some of the things that game devs are totally overlooking nowadays. Photorealism has caused people to go with really muted colour pallettes which are VERY boring to look at (Gears of War = brown and grey).

    I sincerely hope that there never comes a point where photorealism is the only way to make video games. Style should never be overlooked and is much more endearing than photoreal FPS #23124841.

    Ragnar Dragonfyre on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Goomba wrote: »
    I like the way 40k handles good versus evil. I think it really does a good job with it.

    There are good guys in 40K?

    Pata on
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    augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I saw that!

    august on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    august wrote: »
    I saw that!
    I did too, but I decided to let it go.

    Fencingsax on
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    PancakePancake Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Colour pallette, character design, continuity in scenery design... these are some of the things that game devs are totally overlooking nowadays. Photorealism has caused people to go with really muted colour pallettes which are VERY boring to look at (Gears of War = brown and grey).

    Are you serious? Do you really not understand why Gears of War has a muted color pallette and when there are more interesting colors, they're faded and dull? You really think photorealism made them do it and it wasn't an artistic decision? Or am I just making excuses?

    Even with graphics getting better and better, stylization hasn't gone anywhere. Maybe it's more subtle, but it's easier to be. Even Crysis has a slightly exaggerated and unrealistic look to a lot of its characters and that's often cited as one of the most profound examples of photorealistic visual design.

    Pancake on
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    TiemlerTiemler Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Pata wrote: »
    Goomba wrote: »
    I like the way 40k handles good versus evil. I think it really does a good job with it.

    There are good guys in 40K?

    There are innocents in 40K, but they're used as sacrifices to powerful, malevolent psionic entities.

    If they're lucky.

    Tiemler on
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    GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Pata wrote: »
    Goomba wrote: »
    I like the way 40k handles good versus evil. I think it really does a good job with it.

    There are good guys in 40K?
    Which is why it's handled so good.

    Also Eldar.

    Goomba on
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    When everything takes a "Let's make it as close to real looking as possible" standpoint in the design, it becomes bland. It's like the difference between getting a cake on your birthday that's just like, y'know, some candles and frosting, and then getting a cake that has a lot of design on it, maybe some M&M's sprinkled on it too. Both ways are good, but why not be impressed and feel like you're getting something special, right?

    You, my friend, get it.

    I really see this whole push towards photorealism as the slow death of style in video games. Everyone is so concerned about making their game look super real that they've forgotten that style is what really makes a game stand out.

    Colour pallette, character design, continuity in scenery design... these are some of the things that game devs are totally overlooking nowadays. Photorealism has caused people to go with really muted colour pallettes which are VERY boring to look at (Gears of War = brown and grey).

    I sincerely hope that there never comes a point where photorealism is the only way to make video games. Style should never be overlooked and is much more endearing than photoreal FPS #23124841.

    Well when I think about it, this photorealism nonsense is showing off how close we are getting to replicating what we really see. And that time is just about coming up, so once we reach it I don't think it's going to become the goal anymore. Been there, done that, what else can we do? Probably nothing much.

    Henroid on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Pancake wrote: »
    Colour pallette, character design, continuity in scenery design... these are some of the things that game devs are totally overlooking nowadays. Photorealism has caused people to go with really muted colour pallettes which are VERY boring to look at (Gears of War = brown and grey).

    Are you serious? Do you really not understand why Gears of War has a muted color pallette and when there are more interesting colors, they're faded and dull? You really think photorealism made them do it and it wasn't an artistic decision? Or am I just making excuses?

    Even with graphics getting better and better, stylization hasn't gone anywhere. Maybe it's more subtle, but it's easier to be. Even Crysis has a slightly exaggerated and unrealistic look to a lot of its characters and that's often cited as one of the most profound examples of photorealistic visual design.

    The closer games come to realism the more freedom designers have to amaze and enthrall.

    The alien spaceship in Crysis is spectacular artistic design in the middle of a game built around the concept of photorealism.

    I wish these stupid 'art style > graphic hurf durf' assholes would get off their high horse for once and realise games since day fucking one in the 70s have always been, without exception, about making you believe the world they are presenting.

    It's not a case of realism. It's a case of coherency.

    Gears of War isnt somehow less valuable as an art style because it is brown and grey. Thats such bullshit to say that. Least of all because 3/5 of Gears of war dont feature grown and grey levels, and the people who constantly whine about its colour palette probably havent even played it.

    likewise, okami or sotc arent somehow 'superior' by default because they dont aim for realism.

    The_Scarab on
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    jothkijothki Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    The annoying thing about the constant push towards more realistic graphics is that it makes older games look worse without necessarily making newer games look that much better.

    jothki on
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    UltrachristUltrachrist Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Thought Wind Waker was weak and couldn't get over the terrible world enough to appreciate Ganon, but I think Zelda overall does have a great grasp on atmosphere. In OoT, future Hyrule is essentially what happens to everyone if you lose and spending such a large portion of play time there adds a whole lot to the threat Ganon presents. In the original LoZ, Hyrule is so goddamned hostile, it's perfect and makes me sort of sad that every Zelda game has to get easier and easier. I think the actual art style doesn't make a difference so long as it is used well.

    Ultrachrist on
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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    jothki wrote: »
    The annoying thing about the constant push towards more realistic graphics is that it makes older games look worse without necessarily making newer games look that much better.

    ?

    It doesn't make older games look that much worse if they weren't that great to begin with. Good-looking PS1 games still look good, for example. I can boot up the Spyro games or Final Fantasy VIII and they still look fine.

    UnbreakableVow on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    jothki wrote: »
    The annoying thing about the constant push towards more realistic graphics is that it makes older games look worse without necessarily making newer games look that much better.

    ?

    It doesn't make older games look that much worse if they weren't that great to begin with. Good-looking PS1 games still look good, for example. I can boot up the Spyro games or Final Fantasy VIII and they still look fine.

    In fact, Id argue the opposite. Older games attain a level of nostalgic retro feel to them. I'd also argue that a huge number of 16/8 bit games would still be acceptable today, especially with the outlets for games of that type becoming one of the forefronts of the current games industry (XBLA/DS)

    The_Scarab on
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    minigunwielderminigunwielder __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Goomba wrote: »
    Pata wrote: »
    Goomba wrote: »
    I like the way 40k handles good versus evil. I think it really does a good job with it.

    There are good guys in 40K?
    Which is why it's handled so good.

    Also Eldar.

    I'm pretty sure that they're are somehow responsible for the downfall of a utopian, unified humanity under a benevolent immortal badass with mastery of genetic engineering just because Slaanesh or Tzeentch piped the image of the Imperium of Man as it is "today" into the heads of some poor sap from Ulthwe.

    We probably need to invent a blasphemous colour or subliminal watermark that causes reality to bend, somehow.

    So we can play Call of Cthulhu based games.

    minigunwielder on
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    GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Goomba wrote: »
    Pata wrote: »
    Goomba wrote: »
    I like the way 40k handles good versus evil. I think it really does a good job with it.

    There are good guys in 40K?
    Which is why it's handled so good.

    Also Eldar.

    I'm pretty sure that they're are somehow responsible for the downfall of a utopian, unified humanity under a benevolent immortal badass with mastery of genetic engineering just because Slaanesh or Tzeentch piped the image of the Imperium of Man as it is "today" into the heads of some poor sap from Ulthwe.

    We probably need to invent a blasphemous colour or subliminal watermark that causes reality to bend, somehow.

    So we can play Call of Cthulhu based games.
    I have no idea what you're talking about, Eldar have never done anything wrong.

    But the best part about 40k is that no one is really evil, but everyone thinks that certain guys are the bad guys and that they're the good guys. Except only Eldar are right about not being bad.

    Goomba on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I think the black and white, good versus evil plot is really tired. Warcraft blurs the line a little bit, as each race has their own motivations that aren't 'I'm good, you're evil, I have to kill you and save the world.' The humans are paranoid racists, the Orcs are trying to recover from their demonic ancestry, the blood elves are refugees that nobody trusts, the trolls tribes are dying out and the forsaken are trying to cope with, y'know, being undead and all that.

    Zombiemambo on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    The Eldar aren't bad? Their hedonism spawned Slaanesh.

    Zombiemambo on
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    GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    The Eldar aren't bad? Their hedonism spawned Slaanesh.
    That was the old Eldar, they don't count. Neither do Dark Eldar.

    But really, the beauty of 40k is that the other guy is the bad guy, not you.

    Goomba on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    The Eldar aren't bad? Their hedonism spawned Slaanesh.
    Yeah, but hedonism is totally awesome.

    Fencingsax on
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    JorilJoril BelgiumRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Goomba wrote: »
    Goomba wrote: »
    Pata wrote: »
    Goomba wrote: »
    I like the way 40k handles good versus evil. I think it really does a good job with it.

    There are good guys in 40K?
    Which is why it's handled so good.

    Also Eldar.

    I'm pretty sure that they're are somehow responsible for the downfall of a utopian, unified humanity under a benevolent immortal badass with mastery of genetic engineering just because Slaanesh or Tzeentch piped the image of the Imperium of Man as it is "today" into the heads of some poor sap from Ulthwe.

    We probably need to invent a blasphemous colour or subliminal watermark that causes reality to bend, somehow.

    So we can play Call of Cthulhu based games.
    I have no idea what you're talking about, Eldar have never done anything wrong.

    But the best part about 40k is that no one is really evil, but everyone thinks that certain guys are the bad guys and that they're the good guys. Except only Eldar are right about not being bad.

    Didn't Edar's hedonsitic way of life and selfishness spawn the chaos gods? I woudln't categorise that as a good thing.

    Edit: I was way late, sorry about that.

    Joril on
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    GoombaGoomba __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    First off, only one. Second, I just said that doesn't count. You don't go judging humanity by what they did pre-heresy, do you? No. No you don't.

    Goomba on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Goomba wrote: »
    The Eldar aren't bad? Their hedonism spawned Slaanesh.
    That was the old Eldar, they don't count. Neither do Dark Eldar.

    But really, the beauty of 40k is that the other guy is the bad guy, not you.

    Oh I see, the old Eldar don't count. I suppose Horus doesn't, either?

    Zombiemambo on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    And what about the Tau? Bunch of religious nuts.

    Zombiemambo on
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