So V for Vendetta sucks

TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
edited April 2008 in Graphic Violence
Discuss.

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  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    You're doing it wrong then.

    Bloods End on
  • Regicid3Regicid3 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I'm pretty sure that you're wrong on that one.

    I'm sorry.

    Regicid3 on
  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited March 2008
    maybe he means the movie...

    Virral on
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  • Regicid3Regicid3 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I don't think he does.

    I used to be like "Woo! The movie is awesome, the comic sucks!" But then on a whim I picked up the full graphic novel (I had only been reading the small portion that came with my DVD) and I fell in love . . . then I read half of Watchmen and fell in love.

    Good times.

    Regicid3 on
  • Regicid3Regicid3 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Tube, defend your outrageous claims!

    Regicid3 on
  • bobgorilabobgorila Registered User
    edited March 2008
    I like both the movie and graphic novel, and I don't like having sex with men.

    I therefore believe my views to be unique around here.

    bobgorila on
    I like my women how I like my coffee.

    Anally.
  • QuirkQuirk Registered User
    edited March 2008
    I've tried reading it before but haven't got far since it seems to always cost a fuckton of money round here, but it doesn't seem all that enjoyable to me even though I love what I've been told about the story

    Quirk on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I wouldn't say it's bad. It's definitely the most preachy and pretentious of Moore's stuff I've read, probably because it's early.

    The movie is a totally intellectually void sell-out.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • ZeromusZeromus Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Nah

    Definitely ain't no Watchmen, though

    Or Swamp Thing

    Zeromus on
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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    its a god danged period piece

    aint got no relevancy nowdays

    Sars_Boy on
  • Dublo7Dublo7 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Tube... what are you... what are you doing?!

    Dublo7 on
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  • Mr PinkMr Pink I got cats for youRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    ITT Tube has lost it.

    I liked the comic.
    I liked the movie too.

    Mr Pink on
  • AlephAleph Registered User
    edited March 2008
    V For Vendetta is my favourite Moore.

    Aleph on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    august wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's bad. It's definitely the most preachy and pretentious of Moore's stuff I've read, probably because it's early.

    The movie is a totally intellectually void sell-out.

    I wouldn't call it preachy. Unless you missed the bit where people in general actually seemed better off under fascism, it's clear Moore isn't telling us to do anything specific.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    God, Tube's like the biggest troll on these boards. Someone should ban that douche.
    I still need to read V for Vendetta. I wasn't too impressed by the movie, but didn't think it was bad either. I really want to compare it.

    SageinaRage on
  • TachTach Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    As usual, I view the comic and the movie as two seperate entities. I enjoy each seperately, and never the twain should meet, for they would annihilate the universe.

    Of course, the damage could be localized to our own galaxy...

    Tach on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    august wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's bad. It's definitely the most preachy and pretentious of Moore's stuff I've read, probably because it's early.

    The movie is a totally intellectually void sell-out.

    I wouldn't call it preachy.
    hahahahahaha what

    Sars_Boy on
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I don't see how you can say this sucks and Watchmen is awesome. The two positions are inconsistent.

    deadonthestreet on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I disconcur as well.

    I enjoyed the movie as well as the graphic novel. Perhaps when I become a souless egotist, capable of dismissing anything remotely attempting to reach a mass market as sell-out crap, I will come to appreciate your point more.

    But of course, by then I'll just be Alan Moore but without the talent... which I guess would make me the Unibomber or some other societal reject with no outlet for my creativity or angst.

    I will keep you all posted.

    Sentry on
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    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo Like a bad lobster in a dark cellar Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Regicid3 wrote: »
    I used to be like "Woo! The movie is awesome, the comic sucks!" But then on a whim I picked up the full graphic novel (I had only been reading the small portion that came with my DVD) and I fell in love . . . then I read half of Watchmen and fell in love.

    Good times.
    I picked up the comic after watching the film too. The film was entertaining, the comic was just dull featuring horrible art. The two are only very loosely related however.
    I don't see how you can say this sucks and Watchmen is awesome. The two positions are inconsistent.
    I liked Watchmen, it was great.

    Mojo_Jojo on
    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    august wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's bad. It's definitely the most preachy and pretentious of Moore's stuff I've read, probably because it's early.

    The movie is a totally intellectually void sell-out.

    I wouldn't call it preachy.
    hahahahahaha what

    I guess I think preachiness requires a clear-cut message.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • Brian888Brian888 Registered User
    edited March 2008
    august wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's bad. It's definitely the most preachy and pretentious of Moore's stuff I've read, probably because it's early.

    The movie is a totally intellectually void sell-out.

    I wouldn't call it preachy. Unless you missed the bit where people in general actually seemed better off under fascism, it's clear Moore isn't telling us to do anything specific.


    That's a good point. The film was about a hero advocating freedom via democracy in the face of totalitarian fascism and who had the sympathies of the general populace (who all pretty clearly hated their government but were too afraid to do anything about it). It's a nice way to make V more clearly the superhero the W brothers wanted him to be.*

    The graphic novel is different. It's not about democracy versus fascism, it's about ANARCHY versus ordered government, and that's a whole different kettle of fish. V becomes much scarier and more ambiguously heroic when he's advocating the complete and total collapse of all forms of overarching government. This isn't to say that Moore is advocating the fascist Norsefire government; he's clearly not doing so. But the point I think he's stressing is that V, the alternative, the man who's going to bring down the system, is REALLY going to bring down the WHOLE system. He's not going to replace it with something we know and are comfortable with (democracy), he's going to replace it with something that we've never really experienced, non-government, and that's terrifying.



    *In the interests of full disclosure, I didn't like the film. However, that had more to do with the changes to Evey and the Evey/V relationship than anything else.

    Brian888 on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    august wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's bad. It's definitely the most preachy and pretentious of Moore's stuff I've read, probably because it's early.

    The movie is a totally intellectually void sell-out.

    I wouldn't call it preachy. Unless you missed the bit where people in general actually seemed better off under fascism, it's clear Moore isn't telling us to do anything specific.

    I guess didactic might be a better word.

    Moore had V deliver a lot of philosophy and lengthy quotations to us through V. A lot of "hey guys I read this" type content that he gave up after that.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • DharmaBumDharmaBum Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    august wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's bad. It's definitely the most preachy and pretentious of Moore's stuff I've read, probably because it's early.

    The movie is a totally intellectually void sell-out.

    I wouldn't call it preachy.
    hahahahahaha what

    I guess I think preachiness requires a clear-cut message.

    Don't trust the government. Rebel! FIGHT THE POWER!
    blow up parliament/10 downing street?


    It is preachy, and it allows angry teenagers who have discovered politics to have a focal point for their angst. I agree with Tube.

    DharmaBum on
  • Brian888Brian888 Registered User
    edited March 2008
    DharmaBum wrote: »
    Don't trust the government. Rebel! FIGHT THE POWER!
    blow up parliament/10 downing street?


    It is preachy, and it allows angry teenagers who have discovered politics to have a focal point for their angst. I agree with Tube.


    That says a lot more about the teenagers than it does about the graphic novel. Consider who's advocating that message, after all; a person who is, when you think about it, downright inhuman in his control of events and his ability to sacrifice individual lives to his plan. Batman on his best day has nothing on V, and that's frankly a very scary prospect.

    Brian888 on
  • DharmaBumDharmaBum Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Brian888 wrote: »
    DharmaBum wrote: »
    Don't trust the government. Rebel! FIGHT THE POWER!
    blow up parliament/10 downing street?


    It is preachy, and it allows angry teenagers who have discovered politics to have a focal point for their angst. I agree with Tube.


    That says a lot more about the teenagers than it does about the graphic novel. Consider who's advocating that message, after all; a person who is, when you think about it, downright inhuman in his control of events and his ability to sacrifice individual lives to his plan. Batman on his best day has nothing on V, and that's frankly a very scary prospect.

    Ok the people who love it aside. The book is still ridiculously preachy and what could be a good story is hamstrung (in my opinion) by Moore beating us over the head with the "REBEL YOU FOOLS!" stick.

    DharmaBum on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    DharmaBum wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    DharmaBum wrote: »
    Don't trust the government. Rebel! FIGHT THE POWER!
    blow up parliament/10 downing street?


    It is preachy, and it allows angry teenagers who have discovered politics to have a focal point for their angst. I agree with Tube.


    That says a lot more about the teenagers than it does about the graphic novel. Consider who's advocating that message, after all; a person who is, when you think about it, downright inhuman in his control of events and his ability to sacrifice individual lives to his plan. Batman on his best day has nothing on V, and that's frankly a very scary prospect.

    Ok the people who love it aside. The book is still ridiculously preachy and what could be a good story is hamstrung (in my opinion) by Moore beating us over the head with the "REBEL YOU FOOLS!" stick.

    No, he doesn't do that. In interviews, he says that even fascism has good points (order, relative safety). He depicts rebellion as a messy process that leads to wandering around a bleak landscape. Whether or not that is preferable is up to the reader.

    You'd have to already be a well-informed anarchist to take V as a statement in favor of rebellion.

    As to whether or not V is didactic, I'd say that you should expect quotations and literary references from a man who is the literal embodiment of all the art, beauty, and dangerous chaos that is lost in the transition to fascism.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • Brian888Brian888 Registered User
    edited March 2008
    DharmaBum wrote: »
    Ok the people who love it aside. The book is still ridiculously preachy and what could be a good story is hamstrung (in my opinion) by Moore beating us over the head with the "REBEL YOU FOOLS!" stick.



    Again, I'll have to disagree. Look at the messenger. Considering V's actions and personality, do you really buy what he's selling? Do you think Moore expects or wants us to?

    Also, I don't happen to think that what goes on in "V for Vendetta" IS rebellion, or at least not rebellion for the general populace. The story is seems to be V's war on government, but it's not even really a war; V is in such total control of the situation that the REAL story is how V orchestrates the downfall of government in England. Rebellion denotes struggle against a greater power, which simply doesn't apply to V; there is no greater power than him in the story.

    Brian888 on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    As to whether or not V is didactic, I'd say that you should expect quotations and literary references from a man who is the literal embodiment of all the art, beauty, and dangerous chaos that is lost in the transition to fascism.

    So yes then.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Brian888 wrote: »
    DharmaBum wrote: »
    Ok the people who love it aside. The book is still ridiculously preachy and what could be a good story is hamstrung (in my opinion) by Moore beating us over the head with the "REBEL YOU FOOLS!" stick.

    Also, I don't happen to think that what goes on in "V for Vendetta" IS rebellion, or at least not rebellion for the general populace. The story is seems to be V's war on government, but it's not even really a war; V is in such total control of the situation that the REAL story is how V orchestrates the downfall of government in England. Rebellion denotes struggle against a greater power, which simply doesn't apply to V; there is no greater power than him in the story.

    And that's the main difference between the book and the movie. The former has one man acting against the will and best interests of the majority to satisfy his own vision whereas the latter has literally every single civilian in that city becoming V and staging what is depicted as a nearly bloodless coup. Anarchy is shown as being easy.

    If we're going to complain about anything fueling the stupid dreams of teenagers, it's V the movie and not V the book.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Brian888 wrote: »
    DharmaBum wrote: »
    Ok the people who love it aside. The book is still ridiculously preachy and what could be a good story is hamstrung (in my opinion) by Moore beating us over the head with the "REBEL YOU FOOLS!" stick.

    Also, I don't happen to think that what goes on in "V for Vendetta" IS rebellion, or at least not rebellion for the general populace. The story is seems to be V's war on government, but it's not even really a war; V is in such total control of the situation that the REAL story is how V orchestrates the downfall of government in England. Rebellion denotes struggle against a greater power, which simply doesn't apply to V; there is no greater power than him in the story.

    And that's the main difference between the book and the movie. The former as one man acting against the will and best interests of the majority to satisfy his own vision whereas the latter has literally every single civilian in that city becoming V and staging what is depicted as a nearly bloodless coup. Anarchy is shown as being easy.

    If we're going to complain about anything fueling the stupid dreams of teenagers, it's V the movie and not V the book.

    Strongly agree.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Brian888Brian888 Registered User
    edited March 2008
    august wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    DharmaBum wrote: »
    Ok the people who love it aside. The book is still ridiculously preachy and what could be a good story is hamstrung (in my opinion) by Moore beating us over the head with the "REBEL YOU FOOLS!" stick.

    Also, I don't happen to think that what goes on in "V for Vendetta" IS rebellion, or at least not rebellion for the general populace. The story is seems to be V's war on government, but it's not even really a war; V is in such total control of the situation that the REAL story is how V orchestrates the downfall of government in England. Rebellion denotes struggle against a greater power, which simply doesn't apply to V; there is no greater power than him in the story.

    And that's the main difference between the book and the movie. The former as one man acting against the will and best interests of the majority to satisfy his own vision whereas the latter has literally every single civilian in that city becoming V and staging what is depicted as a nearly bloodless coup. Anarchy is shown as being easy.

    If we're going to complain about anything fueling the stupid dreams of teenagers, it's V the movie and not V the book.

    Strongly agree.


    Absolutely true. Everything I said applies to the graphic novel, not the movie.

    Brian888 on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    V for Vendetta does not suck. Discussion over.

    wwtMask on
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  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I liked the little one shot that was in the back of the trade, where V kills a guy climbing on a ledge by using a banana peel and then talks about the dangers of slapstick

    Olivaw on
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  • RansRans Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I liked it a lot.

    And I liked the movie!

    Rans on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I wonder what V would read like if Moore hadn't had a three year gap between ending the first section of the book (the material thru #7 of the miniseries) and the last section of the book. I wonder how the success of WATCHMEN and SWAMP THING influenced him.

    jkylefulton on
    tOkYVT2.jpg
  • AlephAleph Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    The film was entertaining, the comic was just dull featuring horrible art.

    Uh, what?

    Anyway, how can anyone read the book and interpret it as glorifying anarchy when it ends in chaos and ambiguity? Maybe you guys are thinking of the movie or something.

    Aleph on
  • Mr PinkMr Pink I got cats for youRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    You know, when I read the comic I really didn't see it as Moore trying to tell me anything but a story. I guess I was just oblivious to him shoving his ideals down my throat.

    Mr Pink on
  • TylerbroorTylerbroor Registered User
    edited March 2008
    2nd Mr. Pink

    When I picked up the book, I had just read Watchmen and nobody had heard of a film adaptation (as it likely should have remained). I thought it was great. As a piece of art and literature, probably a B to Watchmen's A, but still really fucking good. V's character was fascinating. I can still see in my head the panel where he
    Walks away from Larkhill through flames
    . In response to the art, I think that in comparison to a lot of the stuff that Gaiman writes or Fables, it doesn't look as pretty. That was the idea, though. In both Watchmen and V, he was meticulous in how he wanted it to look. So it was intentional, for good or bad.

    Tylerbroor on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Tylerbroor wrote: »
    In response to the art, I think that in comparison to a lot of the stuff that Gaiman writes or Fables, it doesn't look as pretty. That was the idea, though. In both Watchmen and V, he was meticulous in how he wanted it to look. So it was intentional, for good or bad.

    I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. One, the craft of creating and printing comic art has come a long way in the 25-30 years since V and WATCHMEN were produced (and in V's case, most of it was recolored - it was colored differently when it was being published serially in WARRIOR). Two, there is a very good chance that most of the artists working today have been influenced heavily by Gibbons and Lloyd's art in those books.

    I guess I'm just reading your post as saying that WATCHMEN and V FOR VENDETTA were 100% Alan Moore, and that's just not the case. They were collaborations. Just like FROM HELL, or SWAMP THING, or TOM STRONG, or anything else he's done.

    jkylefulton on
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