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Fitna - Wilders's movie about Islam released
peterdevore
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Get it on *snipped* Typing "NSFW" doesn't make execution videos OK to post here - Elki.
The first part is just a mashup of some inflammatory pieces of text out of the Koran and some tv excerpts of 911, madrid and muslims spouting hatred.
EDIT: The second part of the movie is mostly quotes and newspaper clippings of threats made by extremists in the Netherlands. Pictures and movies of violent acts are headed with the text "The Netherlands in the future?". The movie ends with a hand appearing to tear out a page of the Koran (but fading to black before it does) and this piece of text (translated of the dutch version because I didn't see there was an english version) :
The movie ends with the fuse of the bomb on the head of mohammed from that danish (not dutch) cartoon burning up, and a thunderstrike.
That Liveleak movie had 60 views when I started viewing it, and 700.000 views by the time it finished. :shock:
My impression: The film lumps in the non-extremist muslims with the extremist muslims. This is what Wilders's party does as well, wanting to send back all immigrant muslims back to their country of origin. The text above seems to be forthcoming towards muslims who want a peaceful faith, but some of the newspaper clippings show that Wilders is just as intolerant towards them. He casually lumps in the assassination of Gogh with a failure to ban headscarves and that some schools were closing on muslim holidays as examples of muslims encroaching on our freedom.
The first part is just a mashup of some inflammatory pieces of text out of the Koran and some tv excerpts of 911, madrid and muslims spouting hatred.
EDIT: The second part of the movie is mostly quotes and newspaper clippings of threats made by extremists in the Netherlands. Pictures and movies of violent acts are headed with the text "The Netherlands in the future?". The movie ends with a hand appearing to tear out a page of the Koran (but fading to black before it does) and this piece of text (translated of the dutch version because I didn't see there was an english version) :
Wilders wrote:The sound you heard was from a page out of a phone book.
Because it is not my role, but of the muslims themselves to tear the hatebearing verses out of the Koran.
Muslims want that you give room for islam, but islam has no room for you.
The government tells us to respect islam, but islam has not a shred of respect for you.
Islam wants to rule over us, enslave us and aims to destroy our western civilization.
In 1945, nazism was defeated in Europe. In 1989 communism was defeated in Europe. Now the islamic ideology has to be defeated.
Stop the islamisation.
Defend our freedom.
The movie ends with the fuse of the bomb on the head of mohammed from that danish (not dutch) cartoon burning up, and a thunderstrike.
That Liveleak movie had 60 views when I started viewing it, and 700.000 views by the time it finished. :shock:
My impression: The film lumps in the non-extremist muslims with the extremist muslims. This is what Wilders's party does as well, wanting to send back all immigrant muslims back to their country of origin. The text above seems to be forthcoming towards muslims who want a peaceful faith, but some of the newspaper clippings show that Wilders is just as intolerant towards them. He casually lumps in the assassination of Gogh with a failure to ban headscarves and that some schools were closing on muslim holidays as examples of muslims encroaching on our freedom.
peterdevore on
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In all honesty, lives will be saved if someone finds a way to forcibly remove this from the internet.
No?
Not having seen the movie, I certainly agree with its premise. The Quran is a morally despicable book, and an ideology based heavily on the Quran is dangerous to the modern world. Of course, many Muslims have found ways to adapt their religion and scriptures to modern morality and are capable of living side-by-side with Westerners. But many other Muslims have not and are not, and pointing out this blazingly obvious fact should not be grounds for censorship, let alone assassination.
The movie will probably be used in straw man tactics, where he paints those who disagree as pandering to the kind of muslim in his movie.
I'm not sure what you're saying, are you suggesting that discussing Islam is bad because some people from that religion can not stand to coherent discussion, or is it that the movie in question contributes nothing to any kind of discussion and is simply a nice big flame?
Edit: Probably not the place, but the Esss Eeee plus plus thread MS painting Muhammed is gold.
Yes.
What he does is "poking the bear", by repeating the same old "lol muslim terrorists" speech we have heard countless times before. It's entirely possible that people will be murdered over this, but they will not die for a good cause. They will die because some people thought it would be cool to throw more mud around.
Can we have Hirsi Ali back now? As much I disliked her aggressive style of politics she wasn't dimwitted.
I realize there is some overlap between fascist xenophobes and people critical of Islam. But a lot of people criticize Islam because Islam is xenophobic, or at least the Quran is. And too often, Muslim groups label criticism of Islam as "xenophobic" or "Islamophobic" as a means of stopping a conversation and suppressing critics.
When you start a sentence with "All Muslims are...." you're skimming the line, if the rest of your speech is about how much they suck and how dangerous they are to the country, freedom and democracy you're crossing it.
:?:
WHY ARE YOU THIS DENSE
Has anyone else in this thread who has commented on the movie seen the movie?
Have you read the Quran?
One would hope one would see the item that one is defending before one sets about defending it.
Are you saying (shockingly) that Christians as well as Muslims can be intolerant and violent?
He shows some executions in full detail.
"look at them retarded muslims chopping heads off! We don't want this in our homes, right? Think of the children! "
I do not disagree that the Quran is xenophobic.
In every single thread regarding Islam you bring it up, ignoring the fact that Islam is an evolving, complex religion that has gone through xenophobic and violent periods in its 1300 some odd year history, and peaceful and progressive periods. Just like Christianity has. The Quran and the actions it condones, when seen in this light, are not relevant to our discussion, because of the parallel case study known as Christianity, where we have a holy, ancient book that condones rape, violence, and genocide (as you are so often fond of pointing out), and yet - shock and surprise - most modern Christians don't fucking run around raping and killing other people because "god told them to."
So perhaps the source of the extremist Muslim ire is not the Quran but a more nuanced view of what has happened in that region in the past 200 years, hmm?
Edited out, once I got to them. Be careful with what you link, peter guy. NSFW tags don't make everything OK to link.
And I stopped watching once I got to the executions. I'm not into snuff.
And, as I am so fond of pointing out, this is not a parallel case study because, unlike Islam, Christianity has become almost completely secularized, with only a few fringe groups of Christians still holding to the mores put forth in the Bible (especially the OT). Even among evangelicals, you will be hard-pressed to find a Christian who actually thinks the Bible's legal code should be the basis of American law. Many Christians openly criticize the Bible. And again, the Christians you and I have the most problems with—xenophobic creationists and dominionists—are the ones who take the Bible the most seriously.
It is not controversial to say that Muslims, on the whole, take the Quran much, much more seriously than Christians on the whole take the Bible. Islam has not had a scientific enlightenment which challenged the innerrant authority of the Quran, as Christianity did with its Bible. With the exception of a few countries like Turkey, the Islamic world has not had centuries of secularization, where new forms of community and identification sprung up beside churches. Islam—as a collection of many disparate cultures—is, on the whole, not nearly as secularized, and not nearly as separated from its holy scriptures, as Christianity is today.
There is no single "source" of Muslim extremism. Obviously, colonialist exploitation has taken its toll, that's a big factor. But colonialism is a big factor elsewhere and has affected other religions, such as Hinduism in Indian and Buddhism in Tibet.
Islam is obviously more than the content of the Quran, just as Communism is obviously more than the content of the Communist Manifesto. But both the Quran and Marx's writings are essentially important to the ideologies that evolved from them, and you cannot simply dismiss their content as having no effect on the actions of their followers today. Especially when so many of the Quran's extremist followers repeatedly cite Quran verses to justify their actions and win new members.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0BGwPHvskI
The difference is that Christianity has matured to the point where the vast majority of adherents worldwide are reasonably tolerant (by which I mean they don't go around killing and enslaving non-believers) while Islam has, for whatever reason, not. "Extremist" Muslims comprise a greater percentage of all Muslims than do "extremist" Christians. I leave the definition of "extremist" deliberately vague, but I'm not referring to all the dimbulbs who believe in YEC and think that apples fall down because Jesus wills them to his loving bosom - I mean the folks who want to get their murder on.
We don't need to excise Islam, we need to figure out how to advance it to the same plane of tolerance as Christianity. Because really, Christianity 500 years ago was about the same as Islam today.
Are the executions pretty graphic? Because I'd like to watch that thing for the sake of discussion (I made it in about 2 minutes before being side-tracked by something shiny), but I don't want to watch people getting decapitated or anything.
I went back to where I stopped, and they don't show as much as I expected to see after it.
No weed or gays!
I think much in the way Christianity has been hijacked by evangelicalists and such, the same thing is happening to Islam. I don't think Christainity has so much "matured" as it having to do with regions. The white suburbs and the bible belt where evangelicals pop up are not areas used to seeing the mass violence and killings you find in the middle eastern areas where Jihadism sprouts.
Is Islam itself horribly violent and oppressive? Not completely, there's plenty of passages speaking for peace and unity, much in the line with the Bible's Old Testament and New Testament.
I noted in the film that most of the violent passages were coming from (what I presume is) the book of Surah (sp?). Does all the radicalism stem from these passages?
The problem I see is that the peaceful portion of Islam never really comes out, in full view, and condemns such attacks. I believe there were plenty for 9/11, but that was a big thing. You don't hear about the condemnation of the Iraqi insurgency or the Dutch (Danish?) protests.
Fixed for Qingu-ness, truth, and what Bin Laden believes.
Semantics.
Yes.
The people who conquered the Roman empire considered books to be kindling and toilet paper. The greek and latin versions of the bible, for instance, were translated into arabic and protected by the islamic empires. Without Islam many classics would have been burned and or had shit wiped on them.
Blood should have said "culture" rather than "civilization" then; 'twasn't very clear. Islam inadvertedly did the West a favour when the Turks took Constantinople; all the Greek learning fled West.
While you have a point, Saudi Arabia has a lower crime rate than much of the United States and is a major exporter of jihadist theology.
I don't think you're familiar with any of these books. Surah means "chapter."
This is because Muslims are not publically condemning the Iraqi insurgency or the cartoon protests.
You're better than that, Qingu. You know you mean "self-appointed Muslim bodies" there.