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to sue or not to sue?
LewieP's Mummy
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
so, yesterday whilst staying at shrigley hall hotel near macclesfield, I slipped coming out of the sauna, and fell. i have damaged my left shoulder and possibly broken my right hand, have a plaster cast and sling on my right hand and a sling supporting my left arm to take the pressure off my left shoulder. I've bruised my knee and cut my leg. i missed the champagne reception, the dinner, and jazz singer. it was my sister in law and brother in laws 40th wedding anniversary, and my whole family was there.
i spent 4 hours in casualty had 6 xrays and am on tramadol. the hotel accepts its their fault, and have now put anti slip mats outside the sauna. the sauna is by the poolside, and lots of other places around the pool had anti slip mats, but not around the sauna. the tiles all around the entrance to the sauna were wet and very slippy.
the duty manager completed the accident report whilst i was at the hospital, without any input from me or my family, when i asked for a copy this morning the day duty manager refused. when i said that i had not even seen it, he said that was wrong and that it should have been completed with me, and that so he redid it with me. it is going to go to the hotel groups general manager and hr for investigation.
i am disabled anyway, this injury has exacerbated the impact of my disability, now i can't dress myself, can't cut up food, can't drive and almost certainly can't work. and i don't know how long it will take to recover.
should i sue them or not?
i am very angry, because they were negligent, and as a result of this negligence i'm having to rely on my family for my basic needs, and am in pain.
i spent 4 hours in casualty had 6 xrays and am on tramadol. the hotel accepts its their fault, and have now put anti slip mats outside the sauna. the sauna is by the poolside, and lots of other places around the pool had anti slip mats, but not around the sauna. the tiles all around the entrance to the sauna were wet and very slippy.
the duty manager completed the accident report whilst i was at the hospital, without any input from me or my family, when i asked for a copy this morning the day duty manager refused. when i said that i had not even seen it, he said that was wrong and that it should have been completed with me, and that so he redid it with me. it is going to go to the hotel groups general manager and hr for investigation.
i am disabled anyway, this injury has exacerbated the impact of my disability, now i can't dress myself, can't cut up food, can't drive and almost certainly can't work. and i don't know how long it will take to recover.
should i sue them or not?
i am very angry, because they were negligent, and as a result of this negligence i'm having to rely on my family for my basic needs, and am in pain.
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"The power of the weirdness compels me."
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"The power of the weirdness compels me."
LewieP's Mummy on
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I'm not you. And it's always much easier to be Mr. Subjective when you aren't the one involved, but I do lament how the UK has begun spiralling down into a litigious culture, much in the same way the US system is set up. Those TV adverts on Five telling you "No win, no fee" and sue the heck out of all you have wronged you is a pretty sad state.
If I was permanently injured, yes, go for it. If you will recover, then I wouldn't. Accidents are accidents, sometimes there are things that could have been done better, but these are things that just happen sometimes.
If they refuse to pay for your expenses then yes, you should take them to court, especially if they admitted fault.
If you're asking weather or not try to take them to the cleaners, then the answer is no. You slipped and fell, and it's tragic, but you don't deserve millions of dollars for it either. Talk to them first and see what they are willing to offer you.
Whether it is permanent has nothing to do with it. At the very least they should compensate you for medical expenses and lost pay... I would contact a lawyer though because s/he would be able to advise you of your chances much better than we could.
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She got taken to the hospital in an ambulance, and the hotel paid the bill for the taxi back (although I don't think we gave them much choice)
Edit: I'll take the case
Also, I may be wrong, but from what you said Mum, I don't think you want to know "Can I sue/will I be successful at suing" just "Is suing the right thing to do?" and "do you guys have any opinions on the matter?"
i don't have to pay for medical stuff; its free at point of access in uk.
i don't like blame/claim culture either.
don't know how long - expect hand to be ok in a few weeks, don't know about shoulder.
just don't know what i think, and wanted sounding board, thanks.
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"The power of the weirdness compels me."
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"The power of the weirdness compels me."
be glad you live in a place where you aren't forced into horrible legal battles simply to be able to survive medical costs. some people don't have the chance to take the time after such an accident to focus completely on getting better, rather than dwelling through beaurocracy and courtrooms on pain that could have been long forgotten
hope you feel better anyway!
Problem is, if this is a question of morality we're dealing with here, it's only you guys that can really answer that.
Now you've said they've accepted responsibility for it and are going to be undertaking an investigation. I'm going to bet odds on that nothing will come of the investigation after much delaying. To be honest, I wouldn't really factor it in all that much into my decision either.
They clearly had a responsibility to uphold which they did not do. If you want to pursue this on moral grounds, the first things you need to ask yourself is "Am I expecting any compensation out of this? And if so, how much effort do I expect to put in before that compensation is not worth it to me?"
If this is purely to make a point to them about responsibility, then those questions are moot, you'll probably cary it through anyway. However, if you're expecting them to give you recompense for your injury, you have to be ready for the fact that it may take a long time and a lot of effort to see through. You WILL have to push this to get anywhere with it, and the compensation might not be what you would expect for the suffering you may have gone through.
If you want my honest to goodness opinion as to what I'd do though, if it was a pretty major incidence of irresponsibility on their part, then I'd sue irregardless of what had happened, even if no damage was done at all. If it was a minor thing, then it would probably depend on how much individual suffering I myself had gone through because of their negligence. If I had suffered a great deal because of their mistake, I may very well seek recompense for that. But ultimately, I can't really say to what extent any of this means to you. Heck, I'm not even sure how I would respond in your situation either. Like you said yourself, I've never really been keen on the whole "blame culture" either.
On a side note, now that I know what happened I now also feel like a little bit of a jerk for the joke I made in the Portal thread. :x
However, I would say that you would certainly not be out of line for attempting to go forward with a personal injury suit. While I don't know your particular situation, I would assume lost wages and perhaps punitive damages would be in order. Here's the thing, from my experience in personal injury cases, there is very little chance of it actually going to court - from what you say, the establishment accepts fault, and you would be well within your rights to go after them for negligence, it is highly likely a decent lawyer would be able to work out an acceptable settlement for you.
In terms of the moral aspect of it, I personally feel that while there are regrettably a huge amount of frivolous suits in American jurisprudence, it is important to remember that in some cases they can serve as powerful negative reinforcement to business. The threat of high damage awards and costly settlements tend to encourage companies to avoid dangerous and/or shoddy practices.
Anyway, best of luck with whichever path you choose, and I hope your recovery is quick!
I'm not referring to a particular case. McDonald's has been sued dozens of times (if not hundreds) over the years by people claiming to have been burned by their coffee. It's safe to say that a good number of those were frivolous.
My own ethics would say pursue them for lost wages (and medical if there was actually any), but not for more. Even though they were negligent, it's still an accident on both sides. If there was intentional negligence, or the circumstance was unavoidable, or they refused to correct their mistake, then something more should to be done.
That being said, I do think out of good manners they should help with your medical bills.
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this has been useful, thank you. its helped me clarify what's important in this. i'm at the hospital this morning, with a cd of my xrays - the hospital in macc was tiny, i have to check in at my local one. i'll update if there's anything to report back
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Not really suing someone is designed to get back loss of money.
If Mrs P thinks that she has lost money and it is that important to her then it isn't oppurtunistic.
My question is do you really need the money you'd get if you would sue? I mean it's not as if the hotel has made a profit off you they just caused an inconvience to you, they just messed up and they have since rectified the potential problem.
If you do need to money then yeah talk to a lawyer, but I mean getting money off them because you are angry is a tiny bit petty in my mind.
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Why? The Sauna was putting its customers in danger. Its' pretty opportunistic to skimp on necessary safety measures so you can pocket more money yourself. The only reason companies will voluntarily take necessary safety measures is if they have incentive to do so - i.e. people will sue them if they don't.
Most disability/WPHS legislation requires businesses to pay much closer attention than they generally do unless forced. I see the opposite extreme working for government (our safety officer once tried to caution us about leaving plastic water bottles in our cars, lest they act as a magnifying glass and set fire to the upholstery. No, not joking). Lets face it, asking for a non-slip surface in a wet area is hardly on that level :P asking for compensation for the lack of $40 worth of bumpy rubber sheeting and some glue isn't out of order either, I'd say.
Anyway, a busted hand is no joke even on its own. I hope you get better soon!
the cast stays on for at least 2 weeks - i'm at the fracture clinic in 2 fridays time. i'll find out then if it can come off, if not, the hospital said today that it will be on for another 6 weeks...
interestingly, (for me, anyway) the staff member who was the most helpful had herself been injured at work. she had been doing lifesaver training in the pool, and person who pulled her out (while she was being "saved") bashed her into the edge of the pool and damaged her knee. her employer docks her time when she goes for physio, and she's having to wait for knee surgery - they won't pay for the surgery for her.she's in work on crutches.
i like tramadol.
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Just saying as I was detailing up a pool renovation a few months ago and health and safety regulations state that there is a minimum standard of 'non-slip' tile required for pool area's. If the pool had been completed in this time period then they should be complying with these health and safety standards. If this is the case then non slip mats really aren't any replacement for proper tiles, next time someone falls around this pool edge it could be a lot worse than what your (painful sounding) injury is.
If these guys sound lax with both their health and safety procedures and their staff relations then I say go for it. They are at fault.
.. that's your victory right there, isn't it?
* I don't think we have to say IANAL in the UK.
I echo the "teach them a lesson" sentiment a bit, it is brutally obvious that there is a danger to both patrons and employees, and that the hotel has refused to fix this danger other than throwing a few mats around.
If you had fallen and it was your fault (if you were drunk or doing something stupid like tapdancing on the edge of the pool), then it would be a different story, but all I am seeing is a woman who just wanted to get out of the sauna, and now she can't even feed herself.
But I am an American, so you can take my sue-happy suggestions with a grain of salt, I guess.
It's my understanding that you're a pretty charitible lady, but there are times when you have to look out for yourself.
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Also, to the Americans - unless she's in private healthcare the NHS will fix her up for free, no medical expenses.
In saying that, there is also the financial thing to worry about, and sometimes people find themselves doing things that go against their concience so they can feed themselves. Obviously the hotel is accepting some responsibility, and depending on signage, (WARNING: TILES MAY BE SLIPPERY WHEN WET) you may imnotalawyer have a case.
Yeah, the way I see it with this whole 'litigation culture' thing is to be sane about it. The only good times to sue are if there are provable financial damages for yourself - if you're going to be off work so long that you will fall from full sick-leave pay to basic (or if you're self employed and simply can't earn for x number of days) - and/or if the sting of financial repercussions for negligence will lead an organisation or business to improve health and safety.
There are presumably no medical expenses involved because NHS.
In this instance, the hotel has already made the move to prevent further falls with slip mats, but if you're going to be unable to work for a period that results in you missing out on pay, then as it's a result of their negligence (slipping in showers and saunas happens, that's not their fault, but not having slip mats for the walk-ways was beyond dumb of them) they ought to compensate you for that.
Just don't go down the whole 'I need £100,000 because of psychological trauma' route. That's just embarrassing (unless your fall resulted in being stuck on the floor of the sauna all night as it slowly filled with water due to blocked drains and were only just rescued before it reached your mouth and nose. Ideally rats would be involved somewhere as well).
Be realistic about it as well. If you miss a couple of days work is it really worth the hassle of finding a solicitor and sueing the hotel for a couple of hundred quid? It really all comes down to how much - if any - money you stand to loose out on and is it enough to make legal proceedings worth the effort?
PS I hope LewieP is taking good care of you?
All of your comments have been useful, thank you guys.
I think I'm going to wait until I've been back to the fracture clinic next week, cos then I'm more likely to know how long I'll be in plaster, hopefully I'll also get some physio for my shoulder. I think that 2 weeks should also be enough time for them to have investigated and contacted me, so I'll wait to see what they say, too.
My only real worry is how I'll cope once Lewie goes back to uni - everyone else in the house works full time, and I can't yet make a drink for myself. hopefully my left shoulder will have improved a bit by then, so I'll be able to make cold drinks.
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"The power of the weirdness compels me."
This is why in America you see such massive punitive damages handed out a lot of the time. It's the civil system providing the balance that keeps corporations that would otherwise run wild in line. Ideally the money might not be given to the victim when the only reason there's so much being fined is as punishment rather than economic loss or need on the victim's part, as that leads to the litigation culture scenario, but you guys didn't ask me when you set shit up. You should have. I'd have had good advice.
Luckily, England's system is much more similar to the Canadian system, and I have some general familiarity from a third year commercial law course I took in business school. You're probably only entitled to damages you can prove. It might be more lenient across the ocean, but punitive damages for suffering on the part of the victim are not handed out in Canada and our system is based very closely on yours with much of our juris prudence (WATCH ME FUCK UP SPELLING PPL) coming from decisions your court made.
Take that with a grain of salt, but unless you were working beforehand and can't now, or you can prove that you've had additional expenses (and these will likely need to be within reason), you're probably not going to get much from suing. So I say go ahead, because the system likely isn't open to abuse anyhow. But only if you've done the math and you figure it's worth it. Get a lawyer to help you with that.
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