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His Female Friends
neyula
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So my boyfriend and I have been having this same argument for a while now. We are currently in a long distance relationship and he has female friends. I am perfectly okay with that. As a matter of fact, most of my friends are guy friends. What has been bothering me, however, is that apparently his friends act differently when I’m around. Let me explain.
My boyfriend states that among his friend circles girls and guys are quite close. That is, it is normal for a girl to cling to a guy’s arm for example while they’re walking down the street. Or it is normal for them lean against each other while watching a movie. I admit I had to get used to this idea at first. I get along really well with my guy friends but there usually isn’t any physical contact beyond an occasional hug. And if I know they’re in a relationship I will take extra care not to overstep any boundaries that might upset their girlfriends/wives. However, I trust him and have accepted that if that’s the norm then that’s just the norm.
I’ve met his female friends a couple of times now. Both times some of his friends have been rather reserved around me. They’ve kept their distance from both him and me. Basically they behaved quite differently from what he’s been telling me about them. When I asked him about it he said that they were being “respectful†of me and didn’t want to aggravate me. So naturally that begged the following question:
If clinging to your guy friend is considered the norm then why is it no longer acceptable when your guy friend’s girlfriend is around?
I understand that I’ve only met them twice and I’m not in their “circle of friends†and maybe that’s why they’re behaving distant around me. But I’ve been trying to tell my boyfriend that if they really wanted to show respect to me then they should act around me as they always do around him and I would be okay with that. It shouldn’t matter if I’m there or not since they’re “just friendsâ€. If they are uncomfortable doing so because they fear I might be upset then they shouldn’t be clingy while I’m not around either.
Am I’m being unreasonable?
My boyfriend states that among his friend circles girls and guys are quite close. That is, it is normal for a girl to cling to a guy’s arm for example while they’re walking down the street. Or it is normal for them lean against each other while watching a movie. I admit I had to get used to this idea at first. I get along really well with my guy friends but there usually isn’t any physical contact beyond an occasional hug. And if I know they’re in a relationship I will take extra care not to overstep any boundaries that might upset their girlfriends/wives. However, I trust him and have accepted that if that’s the norm then that’s just the norm.
I’ve met his female friends a couple of times now. Both times some of his friends have been rather reserved around me. They’ve kept their distance from both him and me. Basically they behaved quite differently from what he’s been telling me about them. When I asked him about it he said that they were being “respectful†of me and didn’t want to aggravate me. So naturally that begged the following question:
If clinging to your guy friend is considered the norm then why is it no longer acceptable when your guy friend’s girlfriend is around?
I understand that I’ve only met them twice and I’m not in their “circle of friends†and maybe that’s why they’re behaving distant around me. But I’ve been trying to tell my boyfriend that if they really wanted to show respect to me then they should act around me as they always do around him and I would be okay with that. It shouldn’t matter if I’m there or not since they’re “just friendsâ€. If they are uncomfortable doing so because they fear I might be upset then they shouldn’t be clingy while I’m not around either.
Am I’m being unreasonable?
neyula on
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Her boyfriend was around at one point while we were being horrible to one another and it ended with him hitting me.
How would you feel if you saw one of his friends leaning on him or clinging to his arm while you are doing the same? I doubt it would be happy thoughts.
Every time this has happened to me, the guy doesn't hit me, he joins my team.
To the OP:
My group of friends is of very diverse genders, and almost all the girls have super touchy relationships with almost all the guys. When I was single, it was the norm for if a female friend slept over for them to sleep in my bed with me, without any sexual strings being attached (however, now that I'm in a relationship again, I just avoid doing that, as it has occasionally led to sexings). But I'll still end up cuddling with a friend or wrestling a female friend when we're all out together. That's just how some people interact. However, I can't say whether or not they'd do that around my girlfriend as her and I both have our own separate social circles and don't really hang out with each other's friends very often.
The key point is that the foot massage, just like the arm clinging, means something: only no one talks about it. It's basically a subtle form of flirtation. If it didn't mean anything, they'd be inclined to do it around you. But they know, whether they admit it or not, that it means something... and thus the different behavior when you're around.
The question is if it's baseless flirtation (that is, flirtation without intent of anything further than that), or if there's something else going on. I couldn't say for sure, and you probably couldn't either without more information. Sometimes people just like to flirt "for fun", and if that's what it is you'll have to ask yourself if you're okay with that. But if it's more than just "for fun", I think that's a definite problem regardless of if you'd be okay or not with the "for fun" scenario.
As far as what you can do... I don't know. I find your argument to be reasonable however, and I'd likely feel just as you do in the situation. The fact that they act differently definitely reveals a lot about what they (consciously or subconsciously) feel the clingyness to mean. As far as if it means more than playful flirting and that some kind of philandering is going on... well, you'll need more info first.
(Red for "let's stop right there and examine that")
Very well: sometimes people behave that way. Sure, I believe that. The question is if that's OKAY when you're in a relationship. Certainly I think "sexings" and cuddling/sleeping with another person while you're in a relationship steps over the line of what a normal relationship would find acceptable. Even IF it is something that groups of men and women do normally (though I disagree that such behavior is the norm, that's another issue entirely), the fact that he's in a relationship should change that.
So the question comes back to:
A) Is it *only* arm clinging, or is something else going on too? (Like the scenarios that MC Mystery posed)
If A is happening, or you're not okay with B, then there's a problem that you both will need to work out REGARDLESS of what groups of men and woman may or may not normally do.
Would you want a guy friend to be huggy on you when your boyfriend was around?
The key to distance is trust. You need to trust your boyfriend that when you are not around nothing more than hugging is going on. If you can't then you have bigger issues than his friends acting different around you to worry about.
Your answer is there. They do it for the same reason you do, or most anyone would, really. They just dont want to overstep any bounds because they probably really dont know you all that well.
I'm certain he's not cheating on me and I'm not afraid that any of these girls would actually pose a threat to our relationship. It just annoys me because in my mind clinging to somebody's arm and/or cuddling are actions that do insinuate flirtation.
You've stated exactly what's been lingering in the back of my mind. I'm trying really hard to just accept that that's how some people interact like MC Mystery and The Black Hunter stated but I would feel more comfortable if they would actually show me that.
I'd like to think it's slightly different though. I'm careful not to overstep any boundaries regardless if their gfs/wives are around or not.
Aye, and I find your discomfort with the situation to be perfectly understandable. Indeed though (for your own sanity's sake), if you feel he's not cheating on you, try not to worry about it. If, at a later time, evidence comes forward suggesting that it's worth worrying about... well, that'll be for another H/A thread.
I would guess that a few things shaped their actions: 1) them not knowing you, 2) them seeing him with you. Knowing someone is in a relationship without ever seeing the other person can lead to some disconnects. I doubt they even realized they acted differently. I'd guess that if you were around more (as in permanently), most of their "flirtatious" behavior would fade away. That said, you obviously trust your boyfriend; no need to push this issue, as doing so would probably affect the opinion they are forming of you negatively (ie, "wow, she doesn't trust him" or "she's possessive").
You are however correct in your assessment that they are essentially being double-minded, and that it is probably improper for them to act as they do while you're not around (because they don't when you are). They probably are not even aware of it though.
- Gary Busey
A Glass, Darkly
Yes, I believe those actions are types of mild flirtation, however I consider mild flirtation to be a normal part of the human condition, especially in long-distance relationships. Everyone has their own limitations on what is "not cheating." I think arm-holding or leaning against each other while watching a movie might raise an eyebrow if you walked in on it, but overall is a harmless way to feel companionship during the incredibly fucking hard ordeal of a long-distance relationship.
I've had far too many long-distance relationships myself. I've found that finding companionship in a person, even if it involves some leaning on each other or arm-holding, is actually helpful. Most people need some form of human contact, and as long as it stays harmless, it can keep a relationship from entirely falling apart.
Keeping it harmless is, of course, the difficult part there. I would say a majority of people can't handle long-distance relationships without cracking at some point and doing something they regret. I'm guessing far too many cases move from leaning, to cuddling, to kissing, etc. Human instinct tends to do its best to make this happen. Trust, again, is the key here. Or in my case, the key is not caring and truly believing that love and feelings are on a seperate level from the physical.
Of course I have really fucked up boundaries that consider most things not cheating, and am currently in a long distance sorta-relationship that isn't exclusive at all. Two people at college thousands of miles away... I feel the need to be realistic at this point in life and not expect celibacy.
For instance, I've never cussed in front of my grandmother. It's not because I want to trick her into thinking that I don't, it's because I know that she'd prefer I don't, and I respect her wishes. I'm sure these girls just realize that a lot of people aren't comfortable with other people being grabby with their Significant Other, and didn't want to make you feel odd about your visit right off.
Ahhh, my mistake then. I thought you were saying that it's okay for that to occur.
Not really, but the answer to why they are doing this is equally simple.
They are doing this because you hearing that your boyfriend are "close" with his female friends is definitely different than you seeing it, or throwing it in your face. They are not stupid and they don't want to antagonize you. They just don't want you to decide that they are too affectionate with him.
I cannot, of course, guarantee you that none of these women are interested in your boyfriend, but it could easily be a defensive mechanism against antagonizing you to the point where you are driven to ask your boyfriend to make a "me or them" choice.
That's just how it goes. They would be vastly stupid for them to cling to your boyfriend's arm in your vicinity even if you are okay with it when they are not in your vicinity. They are very smart not to do such things. Regardless of what your post suggests, doing it in front of you and doing it not in front of you will have widely different effects on your outlook to such displays of closeness.
I don't think the issue is quite so simple. When you say the gesture "means something" you have to qualify to whom you mean.
The point here is that it may very well mean nothing to the actor (female friend) and the acted upon (boyfriend) but it may very well mean something to someone else related to the two individuals, an observer (the girlfriend). Which is why the female friend is not doing this stuff around her. It doesn't necessarily mean that she is realizing it means something and so she is choosing to hide her flirtatious intentions around the girlfriend; it may just mean that she is cognizant of what the girlfriend will think of the friendly gestures, regardless of how they are actually meant.
If I had a guy touching and hugging my fiance, you can bet I'd put a stop to that.
Well she and him go to one of their friends' birthday party. A mutual friend of ours was their and he's the type of guy that takes teh pictures, because he's artsy. Well he got a few of him being rather flirtatious with her. Of course it meant nothing to her, she didn't even recognize it until thinking back on it because she only saw him as a friend; she was with me.
The guy, though, had different intentions. She really didn't want to believe that he was being a douchefag , but ultimately had to when he kept his act up. She quit talking to him for my sake which I appreciated.
It wasn't that I didn't or couldn't trust her, my girlfriend, this guy just made things complicated.
I wasn't comfortable with it although, despite knowing his intentions, it meant nothing to her if he touched or anything like that. But she knew it bugged me.
Talk to him about this. I know if I were with her still and I was at college, as I am now, and I told her, "Oh ya. Me and my friends cuddle all of the time" or "lean on eachother's arms/shoulders" or whatever, she'd be upset about it. Its a lot harder to comprehend a relationship (friendship) when you're not there to experience it. Tell him this.
I don't think its unreasonable, no. But you need to talk to him.
I've seen several posts about flirtations being okay or even healthy as long as it is mild. I respect these opinions but I cannot say that I agree with them. I would feel guilty if I cuddled up with any of my guy friends or leaned against their arms. Also, I imagine that if my boyfriend were to witness any of that my guy friends wouldn't have any arms for much longer.
So I'm a little conflicted. I do not want to bring this issue up again. As I've stated before I do trust him and I realize that things probably would be different if we were living closer together. I've noticed that he's not been telling me about girls flirting with him/clinging to him as often anymore lately. I reckon it's partly because he truly has put an effort into keeping his distance but I wouldn't be surprised either if he chose not to bring those instances up because he knows how much they upset me.
Yet, whenever this topic does resurface my temper goes through the roof before I can stop myself. So, what to do?
If you don't, you'll take everything they do wrong.
If he's trust worthy, they can be six kinds of whores and it doesn't matter.
If he's not, they can be nuns and he'll initiate something.
So is he trustworthy and do you trust him?
I host a podcast about movies.
Seriously? Emotions are not that simple. It seems to me as if the OP is concerned about how she's feeling (though I may be wrong) and, at least in my experiences, it's not something you can just "Oh, nevermind, now I get it" through.
Yes and yes... rationally speaking. However, if you caught me off guard and showed me a picture of him with some other girl hanging to his arm, I will be furious. And maybe it's just something he'll have to accept that I will never be truly okay with any other girl being that close to him (be it in front of my eyes or not).
Similarly, maybe I will just have to accept that that's how they act around each other and I cannot expect him to change his beliefs/actions.
I think it’s time I called him… >.<
When it comes down to it, that's what it's all about. Relationships are all about comfort levels. If you're uncomfortable with it, there's a discussion that needs to be had - regardless of if it's something "normal" or if nothing is "going on", or whether or not it's "right" for you to feel that way.
If you're feeling uncomfortable about it, you have your own reasons, and someone would be hard pressed to prove that those feelings are somehow "wrong". They're right for you. I'm not much of a moral relativist, but I am big on emotional relativism: how you feel is how you feel, and most of the time it's for reasons that are too complex to box into a simple "your feeling is right" or "your feeling is wrong" box.
The fact is if it bothers you, you guys need to talk it out to whatever end such a conversation would entail. Keeping the communication open will enable both of you to know much better what the other is thinking on the situation, and will prevent resentment that wasn't known about. (hidden resentment can pop up months or even years later, and scuttle a relationship long after the issue itself has passed)
It's entirely possible that it's just that they don't know you and don't want there to be a fight. It's also possible you're sending some sort of message you're unaware of via poise and body-language that tells them you're not okay with that. Granted, it's also possible that there's something more devious at work here but frankly I wouldn't worry about that unless you already have a much firmer reason to distrust your boyfriend.
Also literally clinging to someone momentarily while stumbling down the street after a night at the bars isn't what's normally referred to by "clingy". "Clingy" is a more like a mild grade of codependency.
So he lives with some girls, and plays with them. I lived with some girls, and the relationship I had with them was very different to the ones I had with other girls. It doesn't mean anyone was planning anything untoward.
This is the OPs insecurities being validated and then blown out of proportion. It has nothing to do with the way they act when she is around, and all to do with what she thinks about things when she isn't.
NINJA: Oh, he doesn't live with the girls. Must have transposed myself into being him. Oops!
I can definitely see where you're coming from Lewisham, but I think some of the best advice I ever heard here in regards to relationships is that if someone thinks there's a problem, there is a problem, even if it's all in their head. It's at least worth talking about to him so they can sort it out. Resentment about issues left undiscussed can be very bad for a relationship. I don't remember who said it, but that advice was golden... and I think it applies here.
I totally agree. She needs to talk to him about it, but I just wanted to be clear that, as far as I can see, this is about her feelings about the relationship they have when she isn't around. If she goes in, and frames it like something he or his friends are doing wrong, it's going to make things worse. It's about reassuring the OP, not assigning blame and saying what she is and isn't going to "accept".
If the OP's gut reaction is some of these girls are up to no good, then I'd trust her opinion over anyone else's. I had a group of girls I used to hang out with, and I thought nothing of one of my friend's open flirting with me. My girlfriend tried to talk to me about it at the time, but I brushed it off. Turns out she wanted to fuck me. I didn't see it, but she did.
Yeah they are. If you don't think your SO will cheat on you, you don't care what other people do around them, within reason. If you DO think they will, or if you've cheated on them, you worry about it all the time.
There is a slim chance this guy hangs out with a bunch of really touchy, flirty girls who are all out to steal him from the OP. There is a greater chance that the op does not, gut level, trust her boyfriend and is trying to make the issue about the girls.
At least part of the issue here is the guy is not saying "I have a girlfriend, and you're closer than she likes" to these girls. I don't know if it's above or below the level of choice, but the behavior she is unhappy with is not "those girls" - at least not 100%. It can't be. The behavior isn't 100% theirs.
Bringing up another thing - unless she watches them on youtube, she doesn't know what they do when she isn't there. She only has her boyfriend's self reported anecdotes about the amount of touching that goes on in his "circle of friends" between "the girls" and "the guys"
Then she went to see him and got a bad vibe off the girls because they weren't touching him with her around.
I truly don't mean to be a dick here, but what did this boyfriend actually DO to merit any sort of anger? Much less a temper "through the roof" "before [she] can stop [herself]"?
I host a podcast about movies.
You really are extremely over-simplifying emotions. Emotions do not occur in absolutes. You can trust someone with every part of your heart and soul, and still feel uneasy when you hear about flirtation involving other people. Feelings are not rational.
Read above. Feelings are not rational, and anger caused by anxiety isn't either. With the way you talk about emotions it makes me wonder what planet you live in where everything is black-and-white.
OP: I'm going to reiterate what has already been said, and what you already stated you should do: Talk to him about this. Not in a confrontational way, but just let him know it makes you feel uneasy. I've never seen a case where talking about jealousy didn't help. You will either understand better why it is okay and you can trust him, and/or he will understand better why it isn't okay. It's a win/win.
I'm not saying it's wrong for the OP to speak to her boyfriend about this in this situation, but sometimes people are jealous for silly reasons and so I don't think your advice is necessarily true in all cases.