The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
On sucking at games.
The Last Gent
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
This has been in my mind since I picked up Brawl. Let me give you some background:
I was late to the gaming scene. My first system was a Game Boy, my first console a Gamecube several years later (fairly early into its lifecycle). I've adapted quickly, played many of the classics I missed, and have generally absorbed the game culture pretty well for a latecomer. Here's the one unavoidable fact, though: I have been, and likely always will be, bad at them.
I blame this to not having a childhood to hone my skills, while many other people here had a controller in their hands when they were 7, I was simply pursuing other interests (geeky ones if that helps). And that saying about being unable to teach an old dog new tricks seems to qualify, though I'm hardly old.
Brawl drove this home to me. I love the game to death, but I find it hard to get around the fact that no matter how hard I try, I can't WIN at it when fighting other people. It's like there's a mental block. Even after playing Melee for years, you'd think I'dve picked up some skill, but no, it was years of loosing. This pretty much goes for every other multiplayer experience I've come across. Shooters, I'm for all intents and purposes a Stormtrooper, fighting games, I'm a Glass Jaw, et cetera, et cetera. What I said above about not having it as a part of my youth comes from observing my younger brother, 6 years my junior, and able to beat me in almost every sort of game. Though we picked up games at the same time, he was the younger one, so likely absorbed it more.
Naturally, I tend to stick with single-player-only games, as I do better against AI than human players, though I still have issues on higher difficulty settings than most people I know do. I dread attempting anything above medium in GH3, and I was never able to beat anything above Kid's mode in either Viewtiful Joe, for 2 examples.
So, where am I going with this? Is it possible to like something despite being terrible at it? How important is the multiplayer experience when you never win? Any other eternally-noobish gamers have anything to share? Any chance of recovery for those like us? I can't think of an exact question here, this is just something that's piqued my curiosity of late. Discuss it however you wish.
I was late to the gaming scene. My first system was a Game Boy, my first console a Gamecube several years later (fairly early into its lifecycle). I've adapted quickly, played many of the classics I missed, and have generally absorbed the game culture pretty well for a latecomer. Here's the one unavoidable fact, though: I have been, and likely always will be, bad at them.
I blame this to not having a childhood to hone my skills, while many other people here had a controller in their hands when they were 7, I was simply pursuing other interests (geeky ones if that helps). And that saying about being unable to teach an old dog new tricks seems to qualify, though I'm hardly old.
Brawl drove this home to me. I love the game to death, but I find it hard to get around the fact that no matter how hard I try, I can't WIN at it when fighting other people. It's like there's a mental block. Even after playing Melee for years, you'd think I'dve picked up some skill, but no, it was years of loosing. This pretty much goes for every other multiplayer experience I've come across. Shooters, I'm for all intents and purposes a Stormtrooper, fighting games, I'm a Glass Jaw, et cetera, et cetera. What I said above about not having it as a part of my youth comes from observing my younger brother, 6 years my junior, and able to beat me in almost every sort of game. Though we picked up games at the same time, he was the younger one, so likely absorbed it more.
Naturally, I tend to stick with single-player-only games, as I do better against AI than human players, though I still have issues on higher difficulty settings than most people I know do. I dread attempting anything above medium in GH3, and I was never able to beat anything above Kid's mode in either Viewtiful Joe, for 2 examples.
So, where am I going with this? Is it possible to like something despite being terrible at it? How important is the multiplayer experience when you never win? Any other eternally-noobish gamers have anything to share? Any chance of recovery for those like us? I can't think of an exact question here, this is just something that's piqued my curiosity of late. Discuss it however you wish.
The Last Gent on
0
Posts
For me, having been born in 1990, I was right there for the big console wars. I've always had on of the latest consoles, and it's been there.
That said, certain games just take practice. Game like Guitar Hero and Halo everyone sucks at first/ But playing them more allows your skill to go up continually. I started failing songs on easy, now I can do half the songs on GH3 on Expert (HALF, the others are kicking my ass). So some games it's just persistance.
Others, though, are just fucking tough. I die alot in God of War games because I rush and miss life/ magic. So I either A) keep dying alot or
I'm sure it's different for each person, but I find it varies from game to game. I have found I will never be good* enough to win at Mario Kart.
*Good meaning cheap or exploitive enough.
I think a big part of being "good" at games is having a degree of "flow" while you play, and this only comes with lots of practice. It is a different state of consciousness when you sort of blank out and let your subconscious guide your actions. Let the force flow through you, and all that. It's strange to describe the feeling, but you know it when you are doing it. In that link they mention that people "in the zone" describe a feeling of effortlessness, and things just sort of come together for them. My best scores for Geometry Wars have all been while I was very very slightly intoxicated, like 0.5 - 1 beer in, and I felt I was in this sort of zen "unthinking" state where my eyes and hands were doing something by themselves.
Smash Bros in particular is all about placement. Where you place yourself, where you place your enemy, where your enemy is trying to place you, etc. Shit man, you could write books about Smash Bros like you could write books about Chess or Go, or even Boxing. There are layers and layers of complexity that you only discover from playing and observing.
Young kids have tremendous tenacity, and they will play and play and play something over and over and over until they get passed it. Remember, NES-era games had virtually no in-game tutorials, and not many kids I knew ever read the manuals, so kids mainly figured out how to play games by themselves.
"Screw supply depots, I NEED MORE SIEGE TANKS! MOOOOOORE!"
I can become reasonable eventually, but it takes longer.
I had the OP's same issues with GH. I never could get above medium until recently I've been forcing myself to try harder and harder at it. At first It was very frustrating, however I finally completed GH1 on hard (only 3 stars) and I am now working through GH2.
As far as multi-player goes, I cannot play a game multi-player that I'm not good at. I won't play brawl online because I know I'll get trounced. I lose enough to my roommate as it is. I still throughly enjoy the game though.
Yeah it's possible to enjoy a game without being good at it, I just depends on your personality. If you have to be the best then I don't think your going to have fun, if you are ok with going along for the ride then keep on playing.
So while I don't doubt age slows a person down, I don't think it happens any time soon in adulthood.
That said, I've noticed one big difference between people who are bad at every game they play and people who are good at every game they play. People who are bad at every game they play (regardless of practice) tend not to internalize controls to the point where they're unconscious. People who are good at games don't really think about the controls while playing (unless doing something unusual or awkward).
I'm sure you can learn whatever the skill is. I think the best thing to start with (believe it or not) would be to practice typing. Great gamers tend to be fast typists, in my experience. Piano would work too, but I bet you'd use the former more than the latter.
This is just speaking in terms of reactionary play and instinctive ability in games, the split-second edges that make or break you in fighting or shooting games.
Beyond the 'physical' (such a silly word in this case but forgive me it's the best I can do) aspect of playing a game well by aiming well, being quick on the controls and whatnot, another really important part of being good at a game is understanding the game itself, and viewing it as a system.
It feels good to win, and it's easy to get caught up in a trap where you win a match or two, and so you keep using and refining the method used to try and win. Instead the game itself should be viewed as a system where you can accomplish specific goals (very straightforward in most cases) by varied means (not so straightforward against people), and you should constantly strive to understand what ALL these means are and how they relate to one another.
I guess what I'm getting at is, caffeine-driven twitchfest reactions are a physical skill. I do think you can learn that skill, just because complicated manipulation of human hands is something the brain likes to do.
The systemic analysis of a map and how to move around it in a way that lets you monopolize weapons and powerups, or how to interrupt a player doing so is a mental skill or visualization method that helps you 'play' the game in a way that's advantageous against your opponents.
Kinda just went on a big ramble. Hope that reads alright.
For example, most non-gamers, when playing an FPS, will rush ahead and fire at anything that moves, dying in the process. Any veteran gamer will move in diagonals, and will immediately circle strafe. If they die, they'll then circle-strafe and look for cover. If they die again, they'll rush for cover and see what happens.
The big difference for getting good at games is figuring out what works. If you're playing fighting games, a lot of times a newbie will lose horribly. An experienced gamer will simply know which fighters they work well in and how other characters react and move, so they have a substantial advantage as they can see things coming. That's through experience and adaptability -- the willingness to try something new in the game, even if it doesn't work.
I felt that way when I started playing FPSs on consoles. I never really played them on PC, and skipped the n64 generation. I picked up dual thumbstick control quickly but was hitting a wall -- I wasn't killing stuff, or I was running out of ammo. I thought "this can't be right, what would help me win easier" and I started aiming for heads. Sure enough, enemies died faster and the games were easier.
Even going way back, the major difference in old Mario games was air control. In SMB3 and SMW, knowing when to float, how to "wiggle" in the air, and what to land on made all the difference between expert players and newbies who die in the first two worlds. I remember when I was young it was a huge pain to get past the "moving" levels in World 8 in SMB3, but I picked it up again shortly after college and beat the game easily.
However, it's not always as rosy as you make it sound. Being "good" at games means you're also more likely to get jaded by games. Someone who's really good at a game probably won't have much competition among other players, and probably won't have much challenge with a lot of games that come out. Worse, if you can "figure out" what the best way to play a game is, there's little point in playing a game to completion. I've done that with DS games -- you get to a point where you're just flying through the game because you know what's going to happen. When you've figured out everything you'll essentially have to do to beat the game, you start thinking "why bother?" and move on to another game.
However, you should also keep in mind that when playing games online, you'll often run across friends or buddies who play together and "back each other up," even if you don't notice it. When I was playing Halo 2 online a lot, that usually made the difference between winning or losing, since 2 on 1 is pretty unbalanced odds.
There are a few games types that I'm really good at because they're actually similar to what I really do for a living, but suffice it to say that my life doesn't look very much like Ninja Gaiden, Madden 2007 or Halo 3.
But I keep playing even though I suck. I love a challenge.
I still try my hardest. What else can I do? I think it's why I like RPGs so much.
The Transformers Fandom: Consistantly bitching about something or another since 1984.
http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/03/28/warbot_001/ - "WARBOT In Accounting"
I find that personally, the more intensely interested and enjoyable I find a certain game or genre, the more I'm willing to play it and learn the nuances of it.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
I don't think I've ever gotten my score in the double digits, and I'm pretty sure my deaths outnumber my kills every time
I love playing it, but I'm sure nobody wants me on their team
Wii: 5024 6786 2934 2806 | Steam/XBL: Arcibi | FFXI: Arcibi / Bahamut
It just frustrates me when winning or losing in a game isn't about your personal skill but whether you're playing exactly the same as everyone else.
Let's say in Brawl, you lose all of the time. Let's say it's because you take too much damage too fast. Solution: block and dodge. Say you block and dodge, but don't do it fast enough. Solution: practice, and training your reflexes. Say you do all these things, but you still lose. Perhaps you lack strategy? Maybe you don't know what moves are most effective in what situation. Snake, for example, thrives on basic strikes and tilts, but his special moves are often slow and best used in moderation. If you only throw grenades, plant bombs and launch rockets, you're probably going to lose. Other characters rely heavily on there special moves, like Jigglypuff. Practice is the most effective way of learning the characters and their strengths/weaknesses.
Other games, like racing games, require the player to learn basic and advanced techniques and have an intimate knowledge of the course. Using Mario Kart as an example, knowing the track and its shortcuts is absolutely essential to winning. In a game like Gran Turismo, technique and knowledge of the cars is more important.
Roleplaying games can be challenging if you don't use the resources available. Do you use support spells like Haste, Slow and Protect? Do you look for elemental weaknesses? Are you prepared to counteract effects like poison and stone? Do you have enough potions do keep your health and mana up? A good understanding of the inner workings of each class/character is also important. Know the heavy hitters, the nukers, the healers etc. Usually this is pretty obvious, and if you know the best ways to use each character then you know how to best equip them.
Strategy games are about two things: knowledge and quick thinking. The better you know the game, the better you're going to do. You might enter a match with a certain strategy in mind, but your opponent might enter the match with a strategy that is good at beating yours. Quick thinking will get you out of this situation, you need to switch gears fast and often. It's highly important that you can look at the whole picture in a short period of time, and evaluate the best course of action.
One of the best ways to improve is to play and lose, but try to get better. If you know what you shouldn't do, than knowing what you should do is pretty obvious. This is how I learned to play Gears of War and become a better player. Watch other people that are always at the top of the scoreboards, and ask them for some tips if they are willing to give them out. You can read 1,000 books on how to be a better Chess player, but the best way to become a better Chess player is to actually play.
To add, these days, as a 29 year old proffessional with a family and many other responsibilities, I find I can only get really good at simpler games. Shmups are my friend these days, because it's easy to grasp the basics quite quickly, and then start to improve from there.
I haven't been good at an FPS or a complex fighter in years, because I don't have to training time necessary to get good. I am loving Brawl, but I really don't think I'll eve be good enough to clear the challenge wall.
The Virtual Console has been my friend as well. Simple concept with only basic twitch skills required.
Switch - SW-3699-5063-5018
Teamwork and communication is more valuable than single skill.
I play TF2 religiously, about 4-5 hours a day (atleast) and if I don't I have withdrawel symptoms.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/rakuencallisto
But for real, anyone who's interested in some rad statistics, checkout my TF2 stats. I'm closing in on 600 hrs of total play time.
Don't feel bad man, it takes a lot of practice, and I'm still not as good as I want to be.
That's how I feel about the Smash Bros series -- a lot of the enjoyment comes from unlocking stuff, which can be very difficult. If you don't care about trophies, or unlocking characters, but just about beating up your friends, then focus on that part. More importantly, even if a game is popular or "big," if you think you're not going to like it, don't pick it up. I picked up Melee for cheap on the GC, and never really got into it because my friends didn't "get it" and wanted to play something else. Sitting on the couch and just competing with yourself to shave a second off some time in order to unlock something isn't fun for me.
I hate talking to my DS, too
But seriously, there's nothing wrong with sucking at games, or sucking at certain kinds of games or even parts of games. For example, stealth games. Either I suck at them because I don't like them, or I don't like them because I suck at them. Either way, I don't enjoy it, so I couldn't care less about Splinter Cell and MGS only holds a passing interest for me. I appreciate the games and understand what they're doing, but that style of gameplay simply doesn't interest me. Therefore, I suck at them. So I pick my battles, and play the games I'm good at, or the part of games I'm good at.
Checkout my bottom post as well.
Sex?
Yeah I enjoy that, hell know's if I suck at it though.
On the topic of games I can pick up something and just breese through it but as of late I find it harder to d so, Probabally with age and not as much interest as before. I find myself now looking for RPG games more so then fighters and shooters. Although I still do enjoy a good shooter or fighter. Brawl as an example, I didn't really enjoy it as much as I thought I would and god knows how many hours I've put into melee. I mean some of this probabally has to do with it being the same concept and all but I just beat the campaign and haven't played it solo since. I don't even play it online. Guitar hero though I enjoyed thorougly and was able to start at medium and was at expert after a week of play. Now however it's painful *literally* trying to get through the last 6 songs of GH3 on expert
You spoke of Guitar Hero. All rhythm games have a certain amount of conditioning before you can even manage the method of input especially if it's your first time at them. Don't let that kind of thing bog you down. It just takes practice.
Talking about Brawl in particular, there are various aspects you do to improve your game. It seems like the lack of wins is what's lowering your enjoyment of the game. Just remember while victory is satisfying, isn't coming from behind after a mountain of losses even more so?
For instance: I started playing FPS's with CS 1.5 everyone I played with was amazing, plus I'd never done much PC gaming at all before. So I started to try to focus on getting good at a few things. I chose Sniping as one of them. I don't have much of a good twitch at all so that turned out to be rough. I've definitely developed a little bit of a twitch but it's still really minor to this day.
I just learned to adapt. Very similar to what ZombieMambo was saying: Realize what you're doing wrong and try to improve it.
I didn't have a good twitch so I thought "I'll have to become a better sniper in a different way." I'd find spots where snipers didn't go very often to snipe from, or change up my location constantly. I also love to watch other players and learn from them. I haven't gotten to snipe as much as I'd like to have in TF2 because I love the spy so much. However, I think I became a better sniper during our TF2 last weekend just by being killed by DUCOM over and over again and him forcing me to try out different strategies.
Plus Rakuen has it down, teamwork is key (not only in TF2 but most multiplayer games) Another thing that helps me be an "okay" player in multiplayer games is working with my team and constantly trying to learn how I can play better since I can't play quite as much as some hardcore gamers. Pretty much figure out your strengths and use them to death.
My Portfolio Site
1 - Determining what works well in the game. (Strategy)
2 - Becoming good at doing that. (Skill)
All good games, from the most cerebral turn-based affairs to the twitchiest of shooters have both aspects.
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire,
I hadn't expected this much of a detailed, thoughtful response. Much obliged, good sirs.
I've got the same problem; I get a new game and play it with my friends and I kick everybody's ass for about a week or two, then they get better and I'm left in shittyland.
Edit: Though to be honest, I don't really mind. I get a little kick out of dying in TF2 just cause I understand what I did wrong and make a mental note to never do that again. I still do it though, cause I'm an idiot...
This. A thousand times this.
RTS games as well, I love them but goddamnit I'm horrible at them.
My problem is the reverse. I keep gathering supplies and making units to gather more supplies rather than build up the offense. And my defense consists of having so many buildings hopefully I can churn out a few last-ditch soldiers/tanks while the enemy rolls over me.
There are armies of players, particularly in fast paced, competitive genres like FPS and fighting games, that just play. And that's it. They grab the controller/mouse and hit buttons and play, and they never really put too much thought into it beyond that. If they're really into it they might learn to do one or two moves on a consistent basis, or find a good camping spot, but they aren't trying to do anything else but just play.
I have a special place in my heart for these people. In any decent gaming community there will be a whole lot of them, and if you look at an average pub you'll see that the whole bottom half of the scoreboard is drawn from their ranks. And they've accepted their fate, because they rarely complain and they always come back for more. Typically, a pub will have one or two good players on each team, a few average players, and a bunch of fodder. Who do you think if complaining the loudest? It's the good players.
In fact, there's a special kind of fun anyone can get from being a newbie. Everything is new and different, and you're never hampered by what you know to be the limits. It's a lot of fun, and in games that are lacking in depth, it's the best way to play. Take a wrestling game, for example. When you don't know what you're doing, you can fuck around and do whatever cool shit you want. It's a good time. Once you've advanced in skill, though, you realize that certain options and attacks just aren't viable, and you can find yourself held back because of that. There will be things you just know you can't do, because they're going to get reversed and lose you the match.
Speaking for myself, I can't play a game that I actually give a crap about unless I know what's going on. I will test and probe everything I can think of. I'll jump off ledges to see how far I can fall before I take damage. I'll fire rockets into walls to measure the splash radius. I'll try and connect random moves just to see if they'll combo. I'll spend a whole round doing an auto-reverse just to see what it works against. Once I've satisfied myself, once I think I know what's going on, then I'll start to actually play. It's just the way it works for me, because I don't mind dying if I know why I died and can start working on a solution, but nothing, nothing pisses me off more than dying/losing and not knowing why.
Getting down to specifics, the first thing you have to do is know the controls. You should be able to do whatever you want, whenever you want to. This goes double for fighting games. Then you have to know your weapons/moves. Figure out exactly what each weapon or attack you have does, exactly what it does, and when to use it. Then you have to know the maps. You have to be able to watch a guy walk into a room through door A and know he's going to come out of door C.
All of that is because, when playing against other people, you shouldn't be playing the game, you should be playing your opponent. If you're still worried about being able to pull off a certain move or make a jump, then you're already failed. You should be worried about being able to read your opponent, being able to teach them, to feed the poison so that you can eventually do whatever you want with them. There's a lot of mind game theory, but the important thing for successful gaming against another human opponent is to be able to play directly against them. And don't think that anything you do against the AI will work against a real person, because it wont. The AI, the single-player game, is your tutorial and training ground; it's where you screw around and learn the controls and the game, it's not where you formulate winning strategy.
And skill isn't a huge factor, at least not some sort of God-given skill. It usually comes down to knowledge, again. If you're really good at Quake then that will transfer over to any other FPS you play. If you're really good at Virtua Fighter then that will transfer over to any other 3D fighting game you play. It's just a way of already being familiar with the basics and having a solid grasp of what you need to know to be successful. Now, if someone just flat-out has much better aim than you that's going to be a problem. You'll have to either make up for it with complete map control (not really an option in modern FPS games
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream