Why is it acceptable for a women to make a snap judgement about me being a dick, but unacceptable for the young man in Cat's example to be taken aback by those womens' suspicions?
Simple. If you turn out to be a criminal the basic average strength between men and women lends itself to the idea that if she makes a poor decision, she could be raped, assaulted, mugged, or killed.
Fuck your feelings this is common fucking sense. When 1 in 3 women is a victim of violent crime it's pretty fucking smart to be wary.
Try understanding their position. It my help heal your butthurt.
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
I really have to agree with this here. And anyway, if you are the sort of person who would be bothered by a woman giving you the stink-eye, there are things you can do with body language and eye contact to make yourself look like less of a threat. Open your eyes, smile, and dip your head/shoulders briefly. Think slightly embarrassed but friendly. It's a remarkably disarming act of reassurance for most people, even the girl who catches you taking a look at her goods.
If not for your own sake, then do it for hers. That way she has at least one less creep to worry about, in any case.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
I really have to agree with this here. And anyway, if you are the sort of person who would be bothered by a woman giving you the stink-eye, there are things you can do with body language and eye contact to make yourself look like less of a threat. Open your eyes, smile, and dip your head/shoulders briefly. Think slightly embarrassed but friendly. It's a remarkably disarming act of reassurance for most people, even the girl who catches you taking a look at her goods.
If not for your own sake, then do it for hers. That way she has at least one less creep to worry about, in any case.
*Sigh* I don't even know how I got sucked into this whole thing.
i am saying that The Cat is justified in ridiculing a man who is offended that he receives suspicious looks at night on campus
it is not about him. it's not personal. the proper response is not indignation at the woman; the proper response is indignation at the circumstances which force a woman to suspect every male as a potential threat.
And, like I said, racism is impersonal in exactly the same way, and no one has shown why this scenario is different from racism. At this point, I think it's because no one can, and no one really wants to face the implications of that line of reasoning.
i would respond that the difference between the potential threat offered by a black man vs a white man is much smaller than the different between the potential threat offered by a man vs a woman.
This issue came up for me because one of my platoon members was a habitual victim of domestic violence from his wife. It's a situation for which American culture really makes no allowance.
EDIT: And in any case, the difference in risk of flight terrorism between old white female and young arab males dwarfs both black vs. white and young vs. female for violent crime.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
This issue came up for me because one of my platoon members was a habitual victim of domestic violence from his wife. It's a situation for which American culture really makes no allowance.
Well then that settles it. I'll make sure to tell women to not look out for themselves at all at night and if one or two get attacked I'll say it was for this guy on the internet who had a buddy that was abused.
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
Well, that depends on how credible the risk is. Given that they thought it safe enough to walk in the first place (surely they didn't expect to encounter no one at all while doing so), I'm gonna say they either didn't really think it was unsafe or they were irrational. Also, glowering suspiciously at someone does not actually improve your safety. If anything, it probably reduces it.
This issue came up for me because one of my platoon members was a habitual victim of domestic violence from his wife. It's a situation for which American culture really makes no allowance.
Well then that settles it. I'll make sure to tell women to not look out for themselves at all at night and if one or two get attacked I'll say it was for this guy on the internet who had a buddy that was abused.
It was an interesting side note, not an argument. If you're that desperate to be a jackass, find some almost-naked women to ogle in public or something. Failing that, try contributing something substantive.
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
Well, that depends on how credible the risk is. Given that they thought it safe enough to walk in the first place (surely they didn't expect to encounter no one at all while doing so), I'm gonna say they either didn't really think it was unsafe or they were irrational. Also, glowering suspiciously at someone does not actually improve your safety. If anything, it probably reduces it.
it's not really about the glowering, it's about avoiding someone. i would agree that glowering is foolish in either case.
people sometimes have to walk through unsafe areas. they don't judge it to be unsafe beyond tolerance but they consider it unsafe enough that they need to be cautious. arguably, the entirety of campus at night is potentially unsafe; that doesn't mean they're going to sit in their rooms and not move. sometimes you gotta buy some milk.
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
But could you not use that argument in a similar manner to say "black people should not take minor things like getting stopped by the police often personally, it will not have an effect on their lives beyond some minor insult and inconvenience" ?
Not that I would hold against any woman if she avoids guy at night, but it is really not any different from racism, just applied to a gender in this case. Sure it's not necessarily an irrational act (although I do not think it is effective it just sets you up to get stuff stolen/mugged by woman and showing fear is really not something you want to do to would be attackers), but neither is the previous example or say doing extra checks for people of middle-eastern background at the airport, just to be on the safe side.
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
Exactly. Its a real pity that some people here think preservation of their self-image is more important than someone else's safety. Or their life.
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
But could you not use that argument in a similar manner to say "black people should not take minor things like getting stopped by the police often personally, it will not have an effect on their lives beyond some minor insult and inconvenience" ?
But it is different, because a) the police are in a position of authority that random ladies aren't, and b) they usually don't have any logical justification to act the way they do.
Impoverished: deprived of natural richness or strength; limited or depleted; an impoverished vocabulary. It is entirely possible to speak of an impoverished skill set, and I'm surprised you never encountered this usage. Apparently I stressed your vocabulary with this, for which I apologize. I will try to choose words that make me look dumber in the future.
You're not deprived, you don't care to employ precision. They're not the same thing by any stretch.
That aside, they would have to treat you in violation of the rules or standards, illegitimately, or unjustly or inappropriately in the circumstances. They would have to somehow violate your rights. What are you entitled to when you meet a stranger walking alone at night?
Respect. Impartial consideration. Suspension of judgment. The sorts of things a woman in public wearing only a bikini is entitled to.
You think you're entitled to respect from strangers you encounter walking alone at night? That's hilarious. It's also very incorrect. What you are entitled to is your personal safety. You are entitled to act to decrease risk to your personal safety without initiating conflict. You are entitled to try to say hi and strike up a conversation if you want, but if someone does that to you you're entitled to rush past them and hurry away. You have entitlement-issues, and are a cry-baby. Oh boo-hoo, some strange girl walking alone at night regarded you with suspicion upon encountering you. Did she try to mug you? Did she start calling you names as you walked past? Did she run up and pre-emptively mace you? No. Suck it up, you are not a unique and beautiful snowflake and even if you were no one can be expected to know that without meeting you. Grow up.
Edit: And how you think a girl wearing attractive clothes is analogous to a potential-threat to someone's safety and/or life is simply boggling.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
This issue came up for me because one of my platoon members was a habitual victim of domestic violence from his wife. It's a situation for which American culture really makes no allowance.
Well then that settles it. I'll make sure to tell women to not look out for themselves at all at night and if one or two get attacked I'll say it was for this guy on the internet who had a buddy that was abused.
It was an interesting side note, not an argument. If you're that desperate to be a jackass, find some almost-naked women to ogle in public or something. Failing that, try contributing something substantive.
I thought you were the one advocating your right to ogle women and violate their level of safety so you don't 'feel bad' when they avoid you on the street because they would rather not be raped today.
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
But could you not use that argument in a similar manner to say "black people should not take minor things like getting stopped by the police often personally, it will not have an effect on their lives beyond some minor insult and inconvenience" ?
But it is different, because a) the police are in a position of authority that random ladies aren't, and b) they usually don't have any logical justification to act the way they do.
As far as your later point, how exactly is avoiding only guys at night any more logically justified than stopping certain minorities for searches ? Yes I am pretty sure statistics show that males more often assault females that other females, but using that as a justification is just as much bullcrap as using ones that say "african-americans commit a disproportionate number of rapes/homicides", or insert some other minority doing something bad more often than others.
I honestly do not see the difference between avoiding certain people at night just because they are guys vs avoiding people at night just because they are black/middle-eastern/<insert regional minority here>. And just like the later, it will just set you up for a huge blind spot vs people not fitting your avoidance criteria. One should be suspicious of everybody unknown in the same circumstances, and while avoiding bad situations is a good idea, showing your fear/suspicion openly in such a way tends to get bad to downright dangerous reactions in some cases.
Edit: do not get me wrong it takes a very special kind of asshole that even thinks about oogling a woman in that situation, and than avoidance is entirely justified, but if the only reason to actively avoid a person is because they are male, than I do not think that is any different that avoiding someone solely because of their race.
i think it is ridiculous to expect women to put themselves at risk over a relatively insignificant matter of principle. being avoided at night is hardly going to have an effect on a guy's life beyond minor insult, if he even takes it personally.
But could you not use that argument in a similar manner to say "black people should not take minor things like getting stopped by the police often personally, it will not have an effect on their lives beyond some minor insult and inconvenience" ?
But it is different, because a) the police are in a position of authority that random ladies aren't, and b) they usually don't have any logical justification to act the way they do.
this is pretty much it.
avoiding all men, or even most men, at night is sexist to some degree. however, the effects - and the implications, both for the individuals and for society as a whole - are not analogous to the effects and implications of racism, especially in the example of police abusing their power. it's a matter of power relationships.
when women avoid men, they are not abusing their power; they are exercising personal agency in a way that causes very minimal negative effect, if any, to the subject of their evasion. i would argue that in most cases it doesn't have any effect on the man.
however, in general, the point about racism is a somewhat valid one. if i avoided black people at night in a similar situation - for example, in a neighbourhood known for being potentially dangerous - it would be racist. if i even felt threatened, you could argue there was racism somewhere in there, although that is more complicated and dangerous.
however, if i was in a risky neighbourhood, i wouldn't be avoiding people based on skin colour, i would be avoiding them based on demeanour, dress, and numbers. what it comes down to is that the snap judgment in that case is mostly socioeconomic, and individual - and the criteria for those judgments end up classifying black people as threatening more often than white people. More often threatening doesn't mean more threatening. A man, on the other hand, is more threatening than a woman by default, when evaluated by a woman.
regardless, the individual has the right to make those snap judgments, especially when it comes down to issues of safety. what should be attacked is not their decision, but the circumstances that make a sexist or racist decision more likely.
As far as your later point, how exactly is avoiding only guys at night any more logically justified than stopping certain minorities for searches ?
People have the right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. You do not have the right to be treated like god's gift to the universe by strangers you encounter walking alone at night. Being black is not probable cause for a search. How hard is it for you people to grasp that violating someones rights is not analogous to avoiding or carefully watching strange men you meet alone in an alley? Seriously what the fuck?
As far as your later point, how exactly is avoiding only guys at night any more logically justified than stopping certain minorities for searches ? Yes I am pretty sure statistics show that males more often assault females that other females, but using that as a justification is just as much bullcrap as using ones that say "african-americans commit a disproportionate number of rapes/homicides", or insert some other minority doing something bad more often than others.
No, it isn't. Blacks aren't proportionately more likely to commit crimes. Men are. The reasons behind that are irrelevant; its simply logical to avoid people with a high statistical probability of causing trouble. Anyway, I don't think anyone in here has actually advocated avoiding men but no other group. I avoid everyone when I'm walking at night *shrug*.
Impoverished: deprived of natural richness or strength; limited or depleted; an impoverished vocabulary. It is entirely possible to speak of an impoverished skill set, and I'm surprised you never encountered this usage. Apparently I stressed your vocabulary with this, for which I apologize. I will try to choose words that make me look dumber in the future.
You're not deprived, you don't care to employ precision. They're not the same thing by any stretch.
That aside, they would have to treat you in violation of the rules or standards, illegitimately, or unjustly or inappropriately in the circumstances. They would have to somehow violate your rights. What are you entitled to when you meet a stranger walking alone at night?
Respect. Impartial consideration. Suspension of judgment. The sorts of things a woman in public wearing only a bikini is entitled to.
You think you're entitled to respect from strangers you encounter walking alone at night? That's hilarious. It's also very incorrect. What you are entitled to is your personal safety. You are entitled to act to decrease risk to your personal safety without initiating conflict. You are entitled to try to say hi and strike up a conversation if you want, but if someone does that to you you're entitled to rush past them and hurry away. You have entitlement-issues, and are a cry-baby. Oh boo-hoo, some strange girl walking alone at night regarded you with suspicion upon encountering you. Did she try to mug you? Did she start calling you names as you walked past? Did she run up and pre-emptively mace you? No. Suck it up, you are not a unique and beautiful snowflake and even if you were no one can be expected to know that without meeting you. Grow up.
Edit: And how you think a girl wearing attractive clothes is analogous to a potential-threat to someone's safety and/or life is simply boggling.
Also, this. Fuck anyone who has a problem with me taking care of myself. I don't have to justify my decisions to anyone, let alone random douchebags on the street.
As far as your later point, how exactly is avoiding only guys at night any more logically justified than stopping certain minorities for searches ? Yes I am pretty sure statistics show that males more often assault females that other females, but using that as a justification is just as much bullcrap as using ones that say "african-americans commit a disproportionate number of rapes/homicides", or insert some other minority doing something bad more often than others.
No, it isn't. Blacks aren't proportionately more likely to commit crimes. Men are.
mmmm what
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
As far as your later point, how exactly is avoiding only guys at night any more logically justified than stopping certain minorities for searches ? Yes I am pretty sure statistics show that males more often assault females that other females, but using that as a justification is just as much bullcrap as using ones that say "african-americans commit a disproportionate number of rapes/homicides", or insert some other minority doing something bad more often than others.
No, it isn't. Blacks aren't proportionately more likely to commit crimes. Men are.
mmmm what
Oh no, please don't ask for something so easily googleable. The vast, vast majority of public and private assaults are committed by blokes. Yes, other blokes are also the most likely victims, and that means you'd be far more justified in looking askance at other people as you walked home at night than me, but the point stands.
As far as your later point, how exactly is avoiding only guys at night any more logically justified than stopping certain minorities for searches ? Yes I am pretty sure statistics show that males more often assault females that other females, but using that as a justification is just as much bullcrap as using ones that say "african-americans commit a disproportionate number of rapes/homicides", or insert some other minority doing something bad more often than others.
No, it isn't. Blacks aren't proportionately more likely to commit crimes. Men are.
mmmm what
Oh no, please don't ask for something so easily googleable. The vast, vast majority of public and private assaults are committed by blokes. Yes, other blokes are also the most likely victims, and that means you'd be far more justified in looking askance at other people as you walked home at night than me, but the point stands.
well, look, i know you're down under and all, but in America at least the majority of violent crime is done by blacks.
not that people should automatically assume that because they're in a black neighborhood that they're gonna get mugged or raped or whatever, and the reason that they commit these crimes is obviously related to the disporportionate poor and other social problems that blacks have rather than than their race per se, but yeah, they commit much more violent crime in America.
edit: and i'm not trying to dismiss the idea or concern that women might be sexually assaulted while alone, at night, in a bad neighborhood, etc but i'm pretty sure most rapes are done by someone the victim knows
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
I don't think it is a general fear of being murdered as a general rule, I think with women it is more the higher risk of being sexually assaulted (rape and the like). The only really violent altercation I've ever had in my life was with a couple of white men, so I don't bias by race: everyone is suspicious. I don't blame any woman who tries to avoid me at night, though oddly, I cannot think of a single case where a woman has done so with me. Maybe I'm just suitably non-threatening.
i don't think any woman should be blamed for being cautious when it's night and they're alone, and i can totally see where that's coming from.
i'm just saying that it's a pretty clear fact that blacks commit violent crime at a rate a lot higher than whites, and that includes rape. there are a lot of reasons for that, but it's fact
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
*shrug* not here. Its irrelevant anyway, multifarious' point about people having the right to make judgements about their safety free of political or other considerations holds.
*shrug* not here. Its irrelevant anyway, multifarious' point about people having the right to make judgements about their safety free of political or other considerations holds.
i agree, i just thought you were playing a little fast and loose with the facts there, considering most of us are in America. plus, i don't know what the demographics are like where you are, but i'm going to go out on a limb and say that blacks as a demographic population aren't nearly as significant in australia as they are here
really, personal safety should trump all; if i'm a 5 foot 3 115 pound woman walking down a lonely street at night and some 6 foot 6 creepy guy comes near me, you bet your ass i'm gonna start looking for ways to get the hell out of there as fast as possible
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
As far as your later point, how exactly is avoiding only guys at night any more logically justified than stopping certain minorities for searches ?
Well, for starters, the fact that you aren't pulling someone over to search them, or otherwise inconveniencing them in any way.
Do you think that the average black person would be annoyed if the average cop went out of their way to avoid them? Do you think they would even notice? Because avoiding someone and pulling him over are two completely different things.
Also, there is a big difference between avoiding someone out of concern for your personal safety, and pulling them over on the presumption that they might do something bad to someone else in the undetermined future.
*shrug* not here. Its irrelevant anyway, multifarious' point about people having the right to make judgements about their safety free of political or other considerations holds.
i agree, i just thought you were playing a little fast and loose with the facts there, considering most of us are in America. plus, i don't know what the demographics are like where you are, but i'm going to go out on a limb and say that blacks as a demographic population aren't nearly as significant in australia as they are here
Well, african-americans are pretty much nonexistent, sure, but we've got plenty of other minority groups that cop a lot of flak. Of course, we haven't been nearly as good at ghettoising them as you guys, so yeah, they're not proportionately more of a problem compared to any other ethnic group. USA'ians may also be the majority here, but not to the point where the global experience needs to be discounted.
*shrug* not here. Its irrelevant anyway, multifarious' point about people having the right to make judgements about their safety free of political or other considerations holds.
i agree, i just thought you were playing a little fast and loose with the facts there, considering most of us are in America. plus, i don't know what the demographics are like where you are, but i'm going to go out on a limb and say that blacks as a demographic population aren't nearly as significant in australia as they are here
Well, african-americans are pretty much nonexistent, sure, but we've got plenty of other minority groups that cop a lot of flak. Of course, we haven't been nearly as good at ghettoising them as you guys, so yeah, they're not proportionately more of a problem compared to any other ethnic group. USA'ians may also be the majority here, but not to the point where the global experience needs to be discounted.
edit: to clarify, i don't know that we "ghettoize" blacks any better than many european countries ghettoize muslims and other non nationals. but on the other hand, when people talk about avoiding certain areas for fear of getting attacked, well, it's not irrational in a lot of places around the world
edit2: also i'm kind of pissed that earlier in the thread when someone brought up a study about male discrimination because of them being overweight you were all "yeah but it's not America so it doesn't count" and now you're all about offering an "international perspective"
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
excuse me? I posted the european study. learn to read. And if you think Sydney's issues with the local 2nd generation lebanese are even slightly similar to the US's with the black population, you're out of your freakin' mind. The only point at which US and Australian race problems become analagous is when you look at Aboriginal and Native American populations, and there we are about equally shitty.
excuse me? I posted the european study. learn to read. And if you think Sydney's issues with the local 2nd generation lebanese are even slightly similar to the US's with the black population, you're out of your freakin' mind. The only point at which US and Australian race problems become analagous is when you look at Aboriginal and Native American populations, and there we are about equally shitty.
i guess. but for the sake of context, maybe it's better we just talk about this in the context of America if we're going to try and cite figures. if the conversation is about feeling nervous in a black neighborhood, i don't see how saying things like "well here in australia we wouldn't feel that way" has any bearing on the conversation whatsoever, since, as you said, there's really no analogy there; or, really, any good analogies anywhere.
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
excuse me? I posted the european study. learn to read. And if you think Sydney's issues with the local 2nd generation lebanese are even slightly similar to the US's with the black population, you're out of your freakin' mind. The only point at which US and Australian race problems become analagous is when you look at Aboriginal and Native American populations, and there we are about equally shitty.
i guess. but for the sake of context, maybe it's better we just talk about this in the context of America if we're going to try and cite figures.
I wasn't aware the whole worlds population was in America.
I must have an outdated atlas or something. I can't even recall the original argument being that women should be afraid of Black men specifically, because the original argument was about if women should be afraid of men. The whole racism stupidity came in as some ridiculous strawman that was trying to imply being careful to keep yourself safe at night was like being racist or some idiocy.
excuse me? I posted the european study. learn to read. And if you think Sydney's issues with the local 2nd generation lebanese are even slightly similar to the US's with the black population, you're out of your freakin' mind. The only point at which US and Australian race problems become analagous is when you look at Aboriginal and Native American populations, and there we are about equally shitty.
i guess. but for the sake of context, maybe it's better we just talk about this in the context of America if we're going to try and cite figures.
I wasn't aware the whole worlds population was in America.
I must have an outdated atlas or something. I can't even recall the original argument being that women should be afraid of Black men specifically, because the original argument was about if women should be afraid of men. The whole racism stupidity came in as some ridiculous strawman that was trying to imply being careful to keep yourself safe at night was like being racist or some idiocy.
yeah i'll just shut up here and admit that i don't really know where i was going with this.
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
I don't even know why we should be talking about at night; the last two rapes in this area were at midday and late afternoon. One of the perpetrators was fourteen, too. Like I said, I'm not inclined to profile. I'll avoid anyone travelling alone, bar the decrepit.
excuse me? I posted the european study. learn to read. And if you think Sydney's issues with the local 2nd generation lebanese are even slightly similar to the US's with the black population, you're out of your freakin' mind. The only point at which US and Australian race problems become analagous is when you look at Aboriginal and Native American populations, and there we are about equally shitty.
i guess. but for the sake of context, maybe it's better we just talk about this in the context of America if we're going to try and cite figures.
I wasn't aware the whole worlds population was in America.
I must have an outdated atlas or something. I can't even recall the original argument being that women should be afraid of Black men specifically, because the original argument was about if women should be afraid of men. The whole racism stupidity came in as some ridiculous strawman that was trying to imply being careful to keep yourself safe at night was like being racist or some idiocy.
as I recall, the point was being that it's interesting that we all seem to find some profiling perfectly acceptable, i.e. along the lines of gender, and other profiling to be completely unacceptable, i.e. race.
And really, it is interesting. Just like your characterization of the position as " being careful to keep yourself safe at night was like being racist." I mean, they're both interesting.
Zonkytonkman on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
Just like your characterization of the position as " being careful to keep yourself safe at night was like being racist."
I dunno, you ever have the ever-loving shit beaten out of you by 5 drunk assholes before?
It's not fun and I don't give a flying crap if some moron thinks it's being racist/sexist/whatever to avoid a group of idiots on the street at night because common sense should err on the side of caution given the knowledge other people can be really violent.
Edit: If you're in a more vulnerable group this is even more justified.
i don't care if you don't care. It's still profiling. I don't even care that it's profiling. I do it all the time. Everyone does. What's interesting is that we seem to allow this type, and that we seem to get really defensive when it is brought up.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
What's interesting is that we seem to allow this type
It seems perfectly acceptable from both my direct experience and general trends that avoiding groups of men at night* is pure common sense from a safety point of view. In all likely-hood it is being overly paranoid, but being overly paranoid is better than being very dead.
*I don't tend to be worried about your average lone dood wandering around though myself these days.
"being overly paranoid is better than being very dead."
see, this is neat, cause if you take it and apply it elsewhere, you get some interesting outcomes.
like the patriot act. or racial profiling at airports
it's also interesting because you're saying that in your experience it makes perfect sense to be weary of men, because you've suffered violence from men. so these people are all lumped together in your head based on how they were born, and you're ok with that.
The reason race was brought into it is because judging people based on their sex is just as... is bigoted the right word? probably not, is just as bigoted as sexism, and yet racism is A VERY BAD THING and is something that most liberally slanted individuals would never allow in pursuit of safety, even if there were evidence that minorities committed more crimes or were more likely to be terrorists or osmething.
edit: this flows very poorly. the second "point" really just illustrates the first.
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Simple. If you turn out to be a criminal the basic average strength between men and women lends itself to the idea that if she makes a poor decision, she could be raped, assaulted, mugged, or killed.
Fuck your feelings this is common fucking sense. When 1 in 3 women is a victim of violent crime it's pretty fucking smart to be wary.
Try understanding their position. It my help heal your butthurt.
I really have to agree with this here. And anyway, if you are the sort of person who would be bothered by a woman giving you the stink-eye, there are things you can do with body language and eye contact to make yourself look like less of a threat. Open your eyes, smile, and dip your head/shoulders briefly. Think slightly embarrassed but friendly. It's a remarkably disarming act of reassurance for most people, even the girl who catches you taking a look at her goods.
If not for your own sake, then do it for hers. That way she has at least one less creep to worry about, in any case.
*Sigh* I don't even know how I got sucked into this whole thing.
Quantitative question, and the answer isn't as clear as you might think. In 2001, only 9% of women hospitalized for assault in a Philadelphia hospital were the victims of other women, but female violence continues to climb. Even if your argument still holds, the discrepancy between the two situations seems unlikely to continue much longer.
This issue came up for me because one of my platoon members was a habitual victim of domestic violence from his wife. It's a situation for which American culture really makes no allowance.
EDIT: And in any case, the difference in risk of flight terrorism between old white female and young arab males dwarfs both black vs. white and young vs. female for violent crime.
Well then that settles it. I'll make sure to tell women to not look out for themselves at all at night and if one or two get attacked I'll say it was for this guy on the internet who had a buddy that was abused.
Well, that depends on how credible the risk is. Given that they thought it safe enough to walk in the first place (surely they didn't expect to encounter no one at all while doing so), I'm gonna say they either didn't really think it was unsafe or they were irrational. Also, glowering suspiciously at someone does not actually improve your safety. If anything, it probably reduces it.
It was an interesting side note, not an argument. If you're that desperate to be a jackass, find some almost-naked women to ogle in public or something. Failing that, try contributing something substantive.
it's not really about the glowering, it's about avoiding someone. i would agree that glowering is foolish in either case.
people sometimes have to walk through unsafe areas. they don't judge it to be unsafe beyond tolerance but they consider it unsafe enough that they need to be cautious. arguably, the entirety of campus at night is potentially unsafe; that doesn't mean they're going to sit in their rooms and not move. sometimes you gotta buy some milk.
But could you not use that argument in a similar manner to say "black people should not take minor things like getting stopped by the police often personally, it will not have an effect on their lives beyond some minor insult and inconvenience" ?
Not that I would hold against any woman if she avoids guy at night, but it is really not any different from racism, just applied to a gender in this case. Sure it's not necessarily an irrational act (although I do not think it is effective it just sets you up to get stuff stolen/mugged by woman and showing fear is really not something you want to do to would be attackers), but neither is the previous example or say doing extra checks for people of middle-eastern background at the airport, just to be on the safe side.
Exactly. Its a real pity that some people here think preservation of their self-image is more important than someone else's safety. Or their life.
You're not deprived, you don't care to employ precision. They're not the same thing by any stretch.
You think you're entitled to respect from strangers you encounter walking alone at night? That's hilarious. It's also very incorrect. What you are entitled to is your personal safety. You are entitled to act to decrease risk to your personal safety without initiating conflict. You are entitled to try to say hi and strike up a conversation if you want, but if someone does that to you you're entitled to rush past them and hurry away. You have entitlement-issues, and are a cry-baby. Oh boo-hoo, some strange girl walking alone at night regarded you with suspicion upon encountering you. Did she try to mug you? Did she start calling you names as you walked past? Did she run up and pre-emptively mace you? No. Suck it up, you are not a unique and beautiful snowflake and even if you were no one can be expected to know that without meeting you. Grow up.
Edit: And how you think a girl wearing attractive clothes is analogous to a potential-threat to someone's safety and/or life is simply boggling.
I thought you were the one advocating your right to ogle women and violate their level of safety so you don't 'feel bad' when they avoid you on the street because they would rather not be raped today.
Funny that.
As far as your later point, how exactly is avoiding only guys at night any more logically justified than stopping certain minorities for searches ? Yes I am pretty sure statistics show that males more often assault females that other females, but using that as a justification is just as much bullcrap as using ones that say "african-americans commit a disproportionate number of rapes/homicides", or insert some other minority doing something bad more often than others.
I honestly do not see the difference between avoiding certain people at night just because they are guys vs avoiding people at night just because they are black/middle-eastern/<insert regional minority here>. And just like the later, it will just set you up for a huge blind spot vs people not fitting your avoidance criteria. One should be suspicious of everybody unknown in the same circumstances, and while avoiding bad situations is a good idea, showing your fear/suspicion openly in such a way tends to get bad to downright dangerous reactions in some cases.
Edit: do not get me wrong it takes a very special kind of asshole that even thinks about oogling a woman in that situation, and than avoidance is entirely justified, but if the only reason to actively avoid a person is because they are male, than I do not think that is any different that avoiding someone solely because of their race.
this is pretty much it.
avoiding all men, or even most men, at night is sexist to some degree. however, the effects - and the implications, both for the individuals and for society as a whole - are not analogous to the effects and implications of racism, especially in the example of police abusing their power. it's a matter of power relationships.
when women avoid men, they are not abusing their power; they are exercising personal agency in a way that causes very minimal negative effect, if any, to the subject of their evasion. i would argue that in most cases it doesn't have any effect on the man.
however, in general, the point about racism is a somewhat valid one. if i avoided black people at night in a similar situation - for example, in a neighbourhood known for being potentially dangerous - it would be racist. if i even felt threatened, you could argue there was racism somewhere in there, although that is more complicated and dangerous.
however, if i was in a risky neighbourhood, i wouldn't be avoiding people based on skin colour, i would be avoiding them based on demeanour, dress, and numbers. what it comes down to is that the snap judgment in that case is mostly socioeconomic, and individual - and the criteria for those judgments end up classifying black people as threatening more often than white people. More often threatening doesn't mean more threatening. A man, on the other hand, is more threatening than a woman by default, when evaluated by a woman.
regardless, the individual has the right to make those snap judgments, especially when it comes down to issues of safety. what should be attacked is not their decision, but the circumstances that make a sexist or racist decision more likely.
People have the right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. You do not have the right to be treated like god's gift to the universe by strangers you encounter walking alone at night. Being black is not probable cause for a search. How hard is it for you people to grasp that violating someones rights is not analogous to avoiding or carefully watching strange men you meet alone in an alley? Seriously what the fuck?
Also, this. Fuck anyone who has a problem with me taking care of myself. I don't have to justify my decisions to anyone, let alone random douchebags on the street.
mmmm what
Oh no, please don't ask for something so easily googleable. The vast, vast majority of public and private assaults are committed by blokes. Yes, other blokes are also the most likely victims, and that means you'd be far more justified in looking askance at other people as you walked home at night than me, but the point stands.
well, look, i know you're down under and all, but in America at least the majority of violent crime is done by blacks.
not that people should automatically assume that because they're in a black neighborhood that they're gonna get mugged or raped or whatever, and the reason that they commit these crimes is obviously related to the disporportionate poor and other social problems that blacks have rather than than their race per se, but yeah, they commit much more violent crime in America.
edit: and i'm not trying to dismiss the idea or concern that women might be sexually assaulted while alone, at night, in a bad neighborhood, etc but i'm pretty sure most rapes are done by someone the victim knows
i'm just saying that it's a pretty clear fact that blacks commit violent crime at a rate a lot higher than whites, and that includes rape. there are a lot of reasons for that, but it's fact
i agree, i just thought you were playing a little fast and loose with the facts there, considering most of us are in America. plus, i don't know what the demographics are like where you are, but i'm going to go out on a limb and say that blacks as a demographic population aren't nearly as significant in australia as they are here
really, personal safety should trump all; if i'm a 5 foot 3 115 pound woman walking down a lonely street at night and some 6 foot 6 creepy guy comes near me, you bet your ass i'm gonna start looking for ways to get the hell out of there as fast as possible
Well, for starters, the fact that you aren't pulling someone over to search them, or otherwise inconveniencing them in any way.
Do you think that the average black person would be annoyed if the average cop went out of their way to avoid them? Do you think they would even notice? Because avoiding someone and pulling him over are two completely different things.
Also, there is a big difference between avoiding someone out of concern for your personal safety, and pulling them over on the presumption that they might do something bad to someone else in the undetermined future.
yeah you guys kick ass at race relations
edit: to clarify, i don't know that we "ghettoize" blacks any better than many european countries ghettoize muslims and other non nationals. but on the other hand, when people talk about avoiding certain areas for fear of getting attacked, well, it's not irrational in a lot of places around the world
edit2: also i'm kind of pissed that earlier in the thread when someone brought up a study about male discrimination because of them being overweight you were all "yeah but it's not America so it doesn't count" and now you're all about offering an "international perspective"
i guess. but for the sake of context, maybe it's better we just talk about this in the context of America if we're going to try and cite figures. if the conversation is about feeling nervous in a black neighborhood, i don't see how saying things like "well here in australia we wouldn't feel that way" has any bearing on the conversation whatsoever, since, as you said, there's really no analogy there; or, really, any good analogies anywhere.
I wasn't aware the whole worlds population was in America.
I must have an outdated atlas or something. I can't even recall the original argument being that women should be afraid of Black men specifically, because the original argument was about if women should be afraid of men. The whole racism stupidity came in as some ridiculous strawman that was trying to imply being careful to keep yourself safe at night was like being racist or some idiocy.
yeah i'll just shut up here and admit that i don't really know where i was going with this.
as I recall, the point was being that it's interesting that we all seem to find some profiling perfectly acceptable, i.e. along the lines of gender, and other profiling to be completely unacceptable, i.e. race.
And really, it is interesting. Just like your characterization of the position as " being careful to keep yourself safe at night was like being racist." I mean, they're both interesting.
I dunno, you ever have the ever-loving shit beaten out of you by 5 drunk assholes before?
It's not fun and I don't give a flying crap if some moron thinks it's being racist/sexist/whatever to avoid a group of idiots on the street at night because common sense should err on the side of caution given the knowledge other people can be really violent.
Edit: If you're in a more vulnerable group this is even more justified.
i don't care if you don't care. It's still profiling. I don't even care that it's profiling. I do it all the time. Everyone does. What's interesting is that we seem to allow this type, and that we seem to get really defensive when it is brought up.
It seems perfectly acceptable from both my direct experience and general trends that avoiding groups of men at night* is pure common sense from a safety point of view. In all likely-hood it is being overly paranoid, but being overly paranoid is better than being very dead.
*I don't tend to be worried about your average lone dood wandering around though myself these days.
see, this is neat, cause if you take it and apply it elsewhere, you get some interesting outcomes.
like the patriot act. or racial profiling at airports
it's also interesting because you're saying that in your experience it makes perfect sense to be weary of men, because you've suffered violence from men. so these people are all lumped together in your head based on how they were born, and you're ok with that.
The reason race was brought into it is because judging people based on their sex is just as... is bigoted the right word? probably not, is just as bigoted as sexism, and yet racism is A VERY BAD THING and is something that most liberally slanted individuals would never allow in pursuit of safety, even if there were evidence that minorities committed more crimes or were more likely to be terrorists or osmething.
edit: this flows very poorly. the second "point" really just illustrates the first.