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Officers of the law/Accountabilty aka Shooting @ bachelors.
DAs are fucking weak when it comes to prosecuting law officers and rape cases, that's for sure.
Also, after hearing this was on his wedding day,
Who gives a fuck? This doesn't matter at all. The only thing this would change is the jury, tugging at their wittle heart stwings to get a guilty verdict.
Because getting killed after you just got married is pretty shitty. Not that getting killed isn't shitty but it just makes the whole thing shittier, like life decided to kick you in the nuts right after butt-raping you.
It sucks but it has no place in a criminal trial, I'm sorry.
DAs are fucking weak when it comes to prosecuting law officers and rape cases, that's for sure.
Also, after hearing this was on his wedding day,
Who gives a fuck? This doesn't matter at all. The only thing this would change is the jury, tugging at their wittle heart stwings to get a guilty verdict.
Because getting killed after you just got married is pretty shitty. Not that getting killed isn't shitty but it just makes the whole thing shittier, like life decided to kick you in the nuts right after butt-raping you.
It sucks but it has no place in a criminal trial, I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to imply it should have been, it was just sad to me, hence the
This post points out some of the points that I think some of you are missing.
Making it all about race? Two paragraphs in and that's what I got from it before I stopped reading.
Yep, that's the sort of response that I'd expect from you. The point is that the NYPD is geared to see the people in the communities that they ostensibly protect to be The Other, and react accordingly. And then when this irrational overreaction gets someone killed, they get told "it's okay, we understand that you were spooked." Again, things like removing residency requirements have really exacerbated this problem. And when you look at things like Rudy's little riot at the beginning of the 90's, it becomes very worrisome.
This post points out some of the points that I think some of you are missing.
Making it all about race? Two paragraphs in and that's what I got from it before I stopped reading.
Yep, that's the sort of response that I'd expect from you.
...and that's what I expect from you? What the fuck is this? Here are the gems that I read before quitting.
The cops in the Sean Bell case walked because the judge said it was reasonable for them to be scared of three black men in a car. This paranoia defense has been used to forgive the murders of black people for a long time.
It's what led a group of New York City cops to riddle Sean Bell's black body with bullets in November 2006.
Driven by their own dark fantasies about the people they were policing, the officers' frightened minds conjured guns into the hands of unarmed men and recast a bachelor party as a gang fight.
They're making it all about race, I'm sorry. Who is this blogger to say what someone's fantasies are, especially given this situation? Just because the victim here is black doesn't define a continuing trend of the NYPD gunning down black people for being black. This isn't the LAPD in the late 80s/early 90s nor the NYPD of the 70s. They even give a quote to refute their own point:
Or, in Cooperman's more restrained words, "The officers responded to perceived criminal conduct."
There. That. What, am I supposed to assume he's a lying fuck and he actually wanted to say "The officers responded to perceived criminal conduct because the suspects were black." but couldn't?
You know, you really should stop patting yourself on the back for being all "post-racial" and take off your blinders. Yes, I'm sorry that in fact, race is part of the issue. But trying to say "la la la no it's not" isn't going to solve anything. Like I said, you can find clips of the Giuliani-lead riot outside of City Hall in the early 90's on YouTube. And the reason that happened was because Dinkins dared to increase civilian oversight of the NYPD. In comparison, Rudy did everything he could to shield the NYPD from those investigations. So don't tell me that the NYPD is "post-racial", because frankly, I'm more inclined to believe my lying eyes.
Who said anything about me being "post-racial"? That's a stupid fucking term to begin with. More importantly, why are you making this about me and not about the case? I simply don't agree that race was a factor here, I'm sorry.
Who said anything about me being "post-racial"? That's a stupid fucking term to begin with. More importantly, why are you making this about me and not about the case? I simply don't agree that race was a factor here, I'm sorry.
And my point is that if you don't think race is a factor, well...you're pretty much trying to ignore reality.
Who said anything about me being "post-racial"? That's a stupid fucking term to begin with. More importantly, why are you making this about me and not about the case? I simply don't agree that race was a factor here, I'm sorry.
And my point is that if you don't think race is a factor, well...you're pretty much trying to ignore reality.
Was race a factor in the police officers staking out a club that was under suspicion of being involved in prostitution and drug trafficking?
Was race a factor in the club being under said suspicion?
Was race a factor in the police officers tailing the suspects after they had threatened someone else that they would return to the club with a firearm?
Where/when exactly did race become a factor concious or unconcious in their decision making process?
Who said anything about me being "post-racial"? That's a stupid fucking term to begin with. More importantly, why are you making this about me and not about the case? I simply don't agree that race was a factor here, I'm sorry.
And my point is that if you don't think race is a factor, well...you're pretty much trying to ignore reality.
Was race a factor in the police officers staking out a club that was under suspicion of being involved in prostitution and drug trafficking?
Was race a factor in the club being under said suspicion?
Was race a factor in the police officers tailing the suspects after they had threatened someone else that they would return to the club with a firearm?
Where/when exactly did race become a factor concious or unconcious in their decision making process?
The reason no one has mentioned race yet is because that's a stupid notion and doesn't apply to this case. Surprisingly, I've only seen the race issue come up a few times elsewhere, and I attribute that to people managing to be rational instead of saying this is another racial issue. Those who are claiming this is because of race are undermining the efforts of those who have a legitimate complaint and are trying to address the real issue. It's not about race this time.
Two of the officers who shot are black. One of the black officers was the first to fire. One other officer was hispanic. One was white. The other name of the other officer hasn't been released.
The reason no one has mentioned race yet is because that's a stupid notion and doesn't apply to this case. Surprisingly, I've only seen the race issue come up a few times elsewhere, and I attribute that to people managing to be rational instead of saying this is another racial issue. Those who are claiming this is because of race are undermining the efforts of those who have a legitimate complaint and are trying to address the real issue. It's not about race this time.
Two of the officers who shot are black. One of the black officers was the first to fire. One other officer was hispanic. One was white. The other name of the other officer hasn't been released.
Ah, the old "it can't be about race, because the other cops weren't white" argument. Glad to see it's as stupid as ever. Here's a question for you all - with all the stories of NYPD brutality and overkill in the 90s up till now, why is it that you never hear of any of the brutality directed towards whites with strong social standing? (Of course, whites with low social standing, say protesters, are indeed fair game.)
It's about race, but not in the context that you think of race. It's about cops being alienated from the communities that they are supposed to be protecting. And it's about the results of that alienation creating an us vs. them attitude that puts everyone on the defensive.
AngelHedgie, that thing you posted is the most biased, unsubstantiated piece of cocksucking shit I've read since I stopped clicking on the links in the Primaries thread.
If you wanna talk about race being a factor here, that's fine. But at least find some decent fucking substantiation. That article throws around accusations of racism like it's going out of fucking style, but backs none of it up with anything other then "cause I said so" and "as we all know".
I really don't understand anyway race played into it. And if Al Sharpton finds a way to do it, he will(he is not always right and stretches a large portion of the time).
That piece of pedantic puffery you posted to isn't worth shit-all as a grounds to make ANY argument except:
lulz - look how retarded people think
EDIT: If you're going to go the subconsciously, race affects us all place. Please don't.
It's about race, but not in the context that you think of race.
The context of race? You mean race?
Look, if you're talking about classism, then say that, but that doesn't make it an issue of race, even if there may be a significant overlap between the two.
why is it that you never hear of any of the brutality directed towards whites with strong social standing? (Of course, whites with low social standing, say protesters, are indeed fair game.)
Are you seriously suggesting that brutality towards whites of low socioeconomic status—by fellow fair-skinned individuals, of course—would be an issue of race as well? Hint: if this phenomenon transcends race, but the common denominator is the victims' belonging to the lower class, then it's not about race; it's not racism.
It's about cops being alienated from the communities that they are supposed to be protecting. And it's about the results of that alienation creating an us vs. them attitude that puts everyone on the defensive.
This part. I like this part. It's also why the hairs on the back of my neck stand up whenever a police officer calls non-police "civilians". The general militarization of police hasn't helped with that, either.
Are you seriously suggesting that brutality towards whites of low socioeconomic status—by fellow fair-skinned individuals, of course—would be an issue of race as well? Hint: if this phenomenon transcends race, but the common denominator is the victims' belonging to the lower class, then it's not about race; it's not racism.
I don't think it's racism, either. It's hard to call it classism, because most police are on the same socioeconomic level as the people they're "handling". I tend to think of it as institutionalized bullying. I struggle at considering it authoritarianism because they don't have some of the authorities you'd need to have to go over that "bar."
Okay...please don't try to tell me that the NYPD doesn't handle Arthur Ave. and Harlem differently. (Or an even better example would be the difference of treatment of the folks living in Crown Heights.) Yes, classism does factor into the matter, but as with a lot of things, class and race mix in unsavory ways. And in the end, the folks who live at the intersection of Poverty Lane and Melanin Avenue get fucked the hardest.
And when I said low social status, I meant that - protesters tend to rank pretty low thanks to the DFH factor, so the cops don't see a problem being more aggressive to them, regardless of color. (Look at what happened in 2004 for an example.) But all things being equal, you do see a loss of social standing based on color, which is a large part of the problem.
Edit: Oh, and if you don't understand why I picked those neighborhoods, you don't know enough about NYC.
This post points out some of the points that I think some of you are missing.
Making it all about race? Two paragraphs in and that's what I got from it before I stopped reading.
Yep, that's the sort of response that I'd expect from you. The point is that the NYPD is geared to see the people in the communities that they ostensibly protect to be The Other, and react accordingly. And then when this irrational overreaction gets someone killed, they get told "it's okay, we understand that you were spooked." Again, things like removing residency requirements have really exacerbated this problem. And when you look at things like Rudy's little riot at the beginning of the 90's, it becomes very worrisome.
Considering what the majority of law enforcement officers are subjected to in the line of duty this isn't entirely unreasonable.
This post points out some of the points that I think some of you are missing.
Making it all about race? Two paragraphs in and that's what I got from it before I stopped reading.
Yep, that's the sort of response that I'd expect from you. The point is that the NYPD is geared to see the people in the communities that they ostensibly protect to be The Other, and react accordingly. And then when this irrational overreaction gets someone killed, they get told "it's okay, we understand that you were spooked." Again, things like removing residency requirements have really exacerbated this problem. And when you look at things like Rudy's little riot at the beginning of the 90's, it becomes very worrisome.
Considering what the majority of law enforcement officers are subjected to in the line of duty this isn't entirely unreasonable.
Unfortunately.
It is unreasonable. If you have problems dealing with the public and it ends with you shooting unarmed people, you are unfit to be a police officer. Police officers are supposed to do the opposite of that.
This post points out some of the points that I think some of you are missing.
Making it all about race? Two paragraphs in and that's what I got from it before I stopped reading.
Yep, that's the sort of response that I'd expect from you. The point is that the NYPD is geared to see the people in the communities that they ostensibly protect to be The Other, and react accordingly. And then when this irrational overreaction gets someone killed, they get told "it's okay, we understand that you were spooked." Again, things like removing residency requirements have really exacerbated this problem. And when you look at things like Rudy's little riot at the beginning of the 90's, it becomes very worrisome.
Considering what the majority of law enforcement officers are subjected to in the line of duty this isn't entirely unreasonable.
Unfortunately.
It is unreasonable. If you have problems dealing with the public and it ends with you shooting unarmed people, you are unfit to be a police officer. Police officers are supposed to do the opposite of that.
Two of the biggest problems are the end of the "beat cop" and the death of the residency requirement. That's gone a long way towards creating the alienation we see.
My issue with the panic defense in this case is that an officer reloaded twice.
If you're still freaked out after unloading your weapon without receiving return fire, you probably need to rethink your career. If you're freaked out after unloading your weapon Twice without receiving return fire, you probably should be removed from a position in which you may need to use a weapon.
I can accept panic and firing shots. It happens. I won't try to read into anyone's motivations on why it did. But it takes a decent amount of time in the grand scheme of things to unload that many rounds (and by this time if your backup isn't reloading, either they ceased fire a while ago or you are firing a hell of a lot faster than they are)
That man should likely be given a desk job at the very least for the rest of his career. He's obviously not ready to be given live ammunition.
My issue with the panic defense in this case is that an officer reloaded twice.
If you're still freaked out after unloading your weapon without receiving return fire, you probably need to rethink your career. If you're freaked out after unloading your weapon Twice without receiving return fire, you probably should be removed from a position in which you may need to use a weapon.
I have no doubt that the guy and the other people in his group were paniced. However, either they were poorly trained or they forgot their training.
Either way, it's gross negligence on the part of the police, just need to know their training regimen to know if it's the fault of the individual officer or the department.
Even if they were poorly trained, they still have responsibility for their actions, whether paniced or doing it out of cold blood.
My issue with the panic defense in this case is that an officer reloaded twice.
If you're still freaked out after unloading your weapon without receiving return fire, you probably need to rethink your career. If you're freaked out after unloading your weapon Twice without receiving return fire, you probably should be removed from a position in which you may need to use a weapon.
I have no doubt that the guy and the other people in his group were paniced. However, either they were poorly trained or they forgot their training.
Either way, it's gross negligence on the part of the police, just need to know their training regimen to know if it's the fault of the individual officer or the department.
Even if they were poorly trained, they still have responsibility for their actions, whether paniced or doing it out of cold blood.
The thing is whether or not they were legitimately panicked. If you're viewing the communities you serve as The Other and that's what's causing you to panic, then the problem isn't that you feel panicked, it's that you need an attitude adjustment. And in those cases, the panic defense should not be used.
And for people who think race really isn't an issue in LE, please read this.
Did anyone claim this?
Considering that it's this sort of stuff that goes to the heart of the panic defense, I would say yes.
But no one openly claimed this?
It's never the open claims that are the problem, it's the quiet underlying assumptions that are. The whole defense of these officers rests on their being afraid being legitimate. And a large part of the argument that it was legitimate for them to be afraid is that they were dealing with people in a group that are "known" to be a "threat". This is the core issue here.
And for people who think race really isn't an issue in LE, please read this.
Did anyone claim this?
Considering that it's this sort of stuff that goes to the heart of the panic defense, I would say yes.
But no one openly claimed this?
It's never the open claims that are the problem, it's the quiet underlying assumptions that are. The whole defense of these officers rests on their being afraid being legitimate. And a large part of the argument that it was legitimate for them to be afraid is that they were dealing with people in a group that are "known" to be a "threat". This is the core issue here.
But again, they weren't dealing with people known to be in a group "of black people." They were dealing with people known to be in a group of "drug traffickers."
And for people who think race really isn't an issue in LE, please read this.
Did anyone claim this?
Considering that it's this sort of stuff that goes to the heart of the panic defense, I would say yes.
But no one openly claimed this?
It's never the open claims that are the problem, it's the quiet underlying assumptions that are. The whole defense of these officers rests on their being afraid being legitimate. And a large part of the argument that it was legitimate for them to be afraid is that they were dealing with people in a group that are "known" to be a "threat". This is the core issue here.
Aren't you making a (not so) "quiet underlying assumption" here? "These people" meaning what? They were black, so that's what you mean by "you people"? Why could "these people", as Shadowfire suggests, not mean the group of drug traffickers / criminals / whatever who were being investigated for these crimes?
And for people who think race really isn't an issue in LE, please read this.
Did anyone claim this?
Considering that it's this sort of stuff that goes to the heart of the panic defense, I would say yes.
But no one openly claimed this?
And a large part of the argument that it was legitimate for them to be afraid is that they were dealing with people in a group that are "known" to be a "threat". This is the core issue here.
That's funny, I thought the argument for them being legitimately afraid for their lives was the (alleged) comment by one of the victims that he was going to get a gun, and then a cop being hit by a car.
But obviously it's because they thought of the suspects as THE OTHER.
Just so we're clear, the real reason that dude got shot at is because Rudy, fifteen years ago, made a political speech decrying additional oversight of the police department, and not due to an (alleged) statement about a firearm in the car or hitting a cop with the car.
Just so we're clear, the real reason that dude got shot at is because Rudy, fifteen years ago, made a political speech decrying additional oversight of the police department, and not due to an (alleged) statement about a firearm in the car or hitting a cop with the car.
Mmhmm.
The real reason the dude got shot was poor training and/or hiring practices.
Of course, that won't get fixed because of limited oversight.
Just so we're clear, the real reason that dude got shot at is because Rudy, fifteen years ago, made a political speech decrying additional oversight of the police department, and not due to an (alleged) statement about a firearm in the car or hitting a cop with the car.
Mmhmm.
The real reason the dude got shot was poor training and/or hiring practices.
Of course, that won't get fixed because of limited oversight.
How exactly does one screen for a tendancy to act out of line with standards after being hit with/watching a friend be hit with a car?
Look, I'm not saying dudes were justified, because they clearly weren't. I'm saying that their reactions were understandable, and that they weren't just shooting darkies for no reason.
Posts
It sucks but it has no place in a criminal trial, I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to imply it should have been, it was just sad to me, hence the
Making it all about race? Two paragraphs in and that's what I got from it before I stopped reading.
Yep, that's the sort of response that I'd expect from you. The point is that the NYPD is geared to see the people in the communities that they ostensibly protect to be The Other, and react accordingly. And then when this irrational overreaction gets someone killed, they get told "it's okay, we understand that you were spooked." Again, things like removing residency requirements have really exacerbated this problem. And when you look at things like Rudy's little riot at the beginning of the 90's, it becomes very worrisome.
...and that's what I expect from you? What the fuck is this? Here are the gems that I read before quitting.
They're making it all about race, I'm sorry. Who is this blogger to say what someone's fantasies are, especially given this situation? Just because the victim here is black doesn't define a continuing trend of the NYPD gunning down black people for being black. This isn't the LAPD in the late 80s/early 90s nor the NYPD of the 70s. They even give a quote to refute their own point:
There. That. What, am I supposed to assume he's a lying fuck and he actually wanted to say "The officers responded to perceived criminal conduct because the suspects were black." but couldn't?
Come the fuck off of it.
And my point is that if you don't think race is a factor, well...you're pretty much trying to ignore reality.
Was race a factor in the police officers staking out a club that was under suspicion of being involved in prostitution and drug trafficking?
Was race a factor in the club being under said suspicion?
Was race a factor in the police officers tailing the suspects after they had threatened someone else that they would return to the club with a firearm?
Where/when exactly did race become a factor concious or unconcious in their decision making process?
MWO: Adamski
Um, I think I did answer that in an above post.
Two of the officers who shot are black. One of the black officers was the first to fire. One other officer was hispanic. One was white. The other name of the other officer hasn't been released.
Ah, the old "it can't be about race, because the other cops weren't white" argument. Glad to see it's as stupid as ever. Here's a question for you all - with all the stories of NYPD brutality and overkill in the 90s up till now, why is it that you never hear of any of the brutality directed towards whites with strong social standing? (Of course, whites with low social standing, say protesters, are indeed fair game.)
It's about race, but not in the context that you think of race. It's about cops being alienated from the communities that they are supposed to be protecting. And it's about the results of that alienation creating an us vs. them attitude that puts everyone on the defensive.
If you wanna talk about race being a factor here, that's fine. But at least find some decent fucking substantiation. That article throws around accusations of racism like it's going out of fucking style, but backs none of it up with anything other then "cause I said so" and "as we all know".
That piece of pedantic puffery you posted to isn't worth shit-all as a grounds to make ANY argument except:
lulz - look how retarded people think
EDIT: If you're going to go the subconsciously, race affects us all place. Please don't.
Look, if you're talking about classism, then say that, but that doesn't make it an issue of race, even if there may be a significant overlap between the two.
Are you seriously suggesting that brutality towards whites of low socioeconomic status—by fellow fair-skinned individuals, of course—would be an issue of race as well? Hint: if this phenomenon transcends race, but the common denominator is the victims' belonging to the lower class, then it's not about race; it's not racism.
I don't think it's racism, either. It's hard to call it classism, because most police are on the same socioeconomic level as the people they're "handling". I tend to think of it as institutionalized bullying. I struggle at considering it authoritarianism because they don't have some of the authorities you'd need to have to go over that "bar."
And when I said low social status, I meant that - protesters tend to rank pretty low thanks to the DFH factor, so the cops don't see a problem being more aggressive to them, regardless of color. (Look at what happened in 2004 for an example.) But all things being equal, you do see a loss of social standing based on color, which is a large part of the problem.
Edit: Oh, and if you don't understand why I picked those neighborhoods, you don't know enough about NYC.
Considering what the majority of law enforcement officers are subjected to in the line of duty this isn't entirely unreasonable.
Unfortunately.
It is unreasonable. If you have problems dealing with the public and it ends with you shooting unarmed people, you are unfit to be a police officer. Police officers are supposed to do the opposite of that.
Two of the biggest problems are the end of the "beat cop" and the death of the residency requirement. That's gone a long way towards creating the alienation we see.
If you're still freaked out after unloading your weapon without receiving return fire, you probably need to rethink your career. If you're freaked out after unloading your weapon Twice without receiving return fire, you probably should be removed from a position in which you may need to use a weapon.
I can accept panic and firing shots. It happens. I won't try to read into anyone's motivations on why it did. But it takes a decent amount of time in the grand scheme of things to unload that many rounds (and by this time if your backup isn't reloading, either they ceased fire a while ago or you are firing a hell of a lot faster than they are)
That man should likely be given a desk job at the very least for the rest of his career. He's obviously not ready to be given live ammunition.
Either way, it's gross negligence on the part of the police, just need to know their training regimen to know if it's the fault of the individual officer or the department.
Even if they were poorly trained, they still have responsibility for their actions, whether paniced or doing it out of cold blood.
The thing is whether or not they were legitimately panicked. If you're viewing the communities you serve as The Other and that's what's causing you to panic, then the problem isn't that you feel panicked, it's that you need an attitude adjustment. And in those cases, the panic defense should not be used.
Did anyone claim this?
Considering that it's this sort of stuff that goes to the heart of the panic defense, I would say yes.
But no one openly claimed this?
And I could have sworn we were talking about NY....
It's never the open claims that are the problem, it's the quiet underlying assumptions that are. The whole defense of these officers rests on their being afraid being legitimate. And a large part of the argument that it was legitimate for them to be afraid is that they were dealing with people in a group that are "known" to be a "threat". This is the core issue here.
But again, they weren't dealing with people known to be in a group "of black people." They were dealing with people known to be in a group of "drug traffickers."
I guess I'm not seeing your argument, here.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
Aren't you making a (not so) "quiet underlying assumption" here? "These people" meaning what? They were black, so that's what you mean by "you people"? Why could "these people", as Shadowfire suggests, not mean the group of drug traffickers / criminals / whatever who were being investigated for these crimes?
That's funny, I thought the argument for them being legitimately afraid for their lives was the (alleged) comment by one of the victims that he was going to get a gun, and then a cop being hit by a car.
But obviously it's because they thought of the suspects as THE OTHER.
Please do not be stupid.
CRITICAL FAILURE
Rudy Addressing Amassed Off Duty NYPD Officers Outside City Hall During Dinkins Administration
And you want to tell me that either Rudy or Bloomberg have confronted this attitude head-on at all?
Quit rehashing the same old tired crap. We're not buying it.
Mmhmm.
The real reason the dude got shot was poor training and/or hiring practices.
Of course, that won't get fixed because of limited oversight.
How exactly does one screen for a tendancy to act out of line with standards after being hit with/watching a friend be hit with a car?
Look, I'm not saying dudes were justified, because they clearly weren't. I'm saying that their reactions were understandable, and that they weren't just shooting darkies for no reason.