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Roe Not Enough, Now They Set Their Sights On Griswald

AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
edited May 2008 in Debate and/or Discourse
Since ElJeffe wanted a better OP, a better OP he shall have.

The "pro-life" (and I use quotation marks because they tend to be very happy about letting people die in the streets or be executed) contingent seems to not just be happy with going after Roe v. Wade these days. No, it seems that now, they have Griswald v. Connecticut firmly in their sights. Some snippets of their insanity:
The birth control pill does not reduce the number of abortions. The only difference is that you are killing the baby earlier.

[T]he pill and other contraceptives can stop a tiny child’s implantation in his/her mother’s womb because the pill irritates the lining of the uterus so that the tiny baby boy or baby girl cannot attach to the lining of the uterus and the newly formed human person is aborted and dies. This is called a chemical abortion.
Q: Isn’t it better to be on the pill when you are sexually active?

A: Better for whom? The pill does not prevent you from getting a sexually transmitted disease, it is not 100 percent effective in preventing pregnancy and you could conceive a child who gets chemically aborted before the baby’s presence is even known to you. Moreover, sexual activity outside of marriage is seriously wrong.

So, in the end, this ends up being (as it usually is) about slut-shaming and forcing "morality" on others. One has to wonder - why isn't this sort of idiocy, as well as pharmacist "conscientious objection", called out for the insanity it is?

Edit: And you have to love their graphic:
pill-kills-banner.gif

Edit II: PZ Myers calls out the bullshit.

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    Darkblade_1Darkblade_1 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Hey, I remember this thread.. didn't this just get locked?

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=57204

    Darkblade_1 on
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    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    lolfundies
    Yes, I get it, christian extremists are terrible. Hopefully this time enough women will realize that the main thrust of these initiatives is to wind back the clock to 1900. And by "women" I mean the women who weren't hurt by restrictions because they can afford to go to the doctor's office umpteen times to get permission. Convieniently enough these women also actually vote, so riling them up should create a lovely backlash.

    Picardathon on
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Good thing I wear the patch!

    Reminds me of this: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48199

    Medopine on
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    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Good thing I wear the patch!

    Guess what's next.
    After all, that probably leads to the death of at least one sperm, and sperm are future babies.

    Picardathon on
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Hahah oh man this is my favorite
    Q: How do you know when life begins?
    A: It is a proven, scientific fact that when the human egg and human sperm unite, fertilization occurs and a new human being is created.

    Medopine on
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    CommunistCowCommunistCow Abstract Metal ThingyRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    It would be worth noting that:
    20 percent of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage. There is an obvious truth here that cries out for acknowledgment: if God exists, He is the most prolific abortionist of all.

    CommunistCow on
    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Hahah oh man this is my favorite
    Q: How do you know when life begins?
    A: It is a proven, scientific fact that when the human egg and human sperm unite, fertilization occurs and a new human being is created.
    Medo, that level of stupid in that quote is positively caustic.

    AngelHedgie on
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    RocketSauceRocketSauce Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Masturbating kills sperm! News at 10!

    RocketSauce on
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    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    It would be worth noting that:
    20 percent of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage. There is an obvious truth here that cries out for acknowledgment: if God exists, He is the most prolific abortionist of all.

    Well, thats just god's plan then. He planned all of the abortions ahead of time; the dead ones must be the ones who would have grown up as future dicators.

    Picardathon on
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    RocketSauceRocketSauce Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    It would be worth noting that:
    20 percent of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage. There is an obvious truth here that cries out for acknowledgment: if God exists, He is the most prolific abortionist of all.

    Well, thats just god's plan then. He planned all of the abortions ahead of time; the dead ones must be the ones who would have grown up as future dicators.

    "Welcome to the world...Psych!

    RocketSauce on
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    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I don't understand how anyone opposed to masturbation can be for any form of birth control.
    Thats why birth control at large is coming up as the fundie superobjective.

    Picardathon on
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    Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    This is hateful and dangerous insanity. There is no point in arguing against "pro-life" folks, mind you. They are firmly set in their beliefs, and nothing will change that. The "pro-life" leaders are cold, calculating and downright evil. They want to end equal rights for women, and they have a plan. Their message is expertly crafted and their support is solid. It is pointless to debate or fight against these people. Calling them "insane" and "evil" to their face does nothing.

    Instead, those who oppose these anti-equal-rights groups must show this insanity to the general public. Most people in the United States are reasonable. They will backlash against this "The Pill Kills" message. Even those ignorant of this "issue" will turn against them once informed. But don't bother with those who already support this evil insanitary. They are, alas, a lost cause.

    Those of us who want to fight these insane and evil groups must also prepare for yet another bout of legal battles. No doubt lawsuits and bills and protests will flood State governments soon. We must never give up, and take heart in the fact that throughout history the United States has always become more free as time moves on.

    But remember: you can't fight this kind of evil insanity with reason and logic. Don't even bother debating them. Instead, concentrate on those who may yet join the cause for rationality and equal rights.

    Curly_Brace on
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Griswold is pretty solid. I doubt they will get anywhere legally.

    What's scary is this kind of shit gaining legitimacy with young people through facebook and the internet.

    Yuck.

    EDIT: Facebook link http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=34501835075

    Medopine on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Griswold is pretty solid. I doubt they will get anywhere legally.

    What's scary is this kind of shit gaining legitimacy with young people through facebook and the internet.

    Yuck.

    Medo, they're young, stupid, and impressionable. Don't blame the kids.

    AngelHedgie on
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    an_altan_alt Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    The last abortion thread went like thirty or fifty pages and was actually fairly cordial, given the subject matter. With this OP, I'm sure we're in for a better thread this time around. Good job, Hedgie! Oh, plus The Cat isn't a mod anymore. This should be fantastic!

    an_alt on
    Pony wrote:
    I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
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    NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Curly you sound really really crazy just so you know.

    Neaden on
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    an_alt wrote: »
    The last abortion thread went like thirty or fifty pages and was actually fairly cordial, given the subject matter. With this OP, I'm sure we're in for a better thread this time around. Good job, Hedgie! Oh, plus The Cat isn't a mod anymore. This should be fantastic!

    Unnecessary.

    Medopine on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    PZ Myers is being slightly intellectually dishonest in his article. To listen to him describe it, it's a foregone conclusion that levonorgestrel (the active ingredient in Plan-B and some oral contraceptives) does not ever prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg. However, that's not a foregone conclusion. It's clear that the primary mode of action in both formulations is prevention of ovulation, however it does change the microstructure of the endometrial lining in such a way that in some animal studies it has been shown to prevent the implantation of a fertilized "breakthrough" egg. (There have been case studies of women on levonorgestrel having ectopic pregnancies, which should not be possible if PZ Myers were 100% correct.) Yes, it's true that some very high profile studies have shown no evidence that levonorgestrel inhibits implantation in humans, however these studies are based on the participants self-reporting when they had sex and when they took Plan-B, and may be tainted slightly by inaccuracies in that self-reporting.

    The major issue here the American Life League is using a scientifically unaccepted definition of conception by claiming that conception begins at fertilization rather than implantation, which is scientifically absurd for the exact reason illustrated above by the Sam Harris quote. However it's completely in line, ontologically and ethically, with fundamentalist Christian thinking, as they wish to treat the developing zygote as its own independent lifeform by ignoring the pivotal role that the mother's biology plays in turning that zygote into a human being. In this worldview, the rhythm method should be considered abortion as well (after all, if you fertilize an egg right before the body naturally sloughs off the endometrial lining, then you're still killing a "human life" by their definition). If there's no endometrial lining, or no implantation, there's no human. Period. End of story. It's as brain-dead as making a bowl of batter and declaring it "cake" without having an oven to stick it in.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    an_alt wrote: »
    The last abortion thread went like thirty or fifty pages and was actually fairly cordial, given the subject matter. With this OP, I'm sure we're in for a better thread this time around. Good job, Hedgie! Oh, plus The Cat isn't a mod anymore. This should be fantastic!
    Until pants shows up claiming a significant number of teenagers would readily use abortion as birth control and shouldn't be having sex in the first place because it's bad for them.

    Also screw you Cat naysayers.

    Quid on
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    Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Neaden wrote: »
    Curly you sound really really crazy just so you know.

    I know, I tend to get understandably pissed off about this kind of low-down sneaky evil. I should count to 10 or something before I post about these kind of things.

    Anyway, how much support do you folks think this movement is going to gain? How much opposition?

    Curly_Brace on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    By the way, you have to love any organization whose talking points have citations from the Quiverfull Fact Sheet and a publishing company called "Eternal Life"

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    By the way, you have to love any organization whose talking points have citations from the Quiverfull Fact Sheet and a publishing company called "Eternal Life"

    Yeah I love how footnotes apparently make something legit even if they don't point to any kind of reliable or legitimate resource.

    Medopine on
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    an_altan_alt Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Quid wrote: »
    an_alt wrote: »
    The last abortion thread went like thirty or fifty pages and was actually fairly cordial, given the subject matter. With this OP, I'm sure we're in for a better thread this time around. Good job, Hedgie! Oh, plus The Cat isn't a mod anymore. This should be fantastic!
    Until pants shows up claiming a significant number of teenagers would readily use abortion as birth control and shouldn't be having sex in the first place because it's bad for them.

    Also screw you Cat naysayers.

    Actually, I'm pro-cat for the record. With her not being a mod, she only has the slight threat of an infraction to hold her back instead of the responsibility of being an authority figure. I've been eagerly awaiting the first abortion thread (which this will invariably turn into) with a non-mod Cat. Hedgie doing the OP is just the icing on the cake.

    Being careful not to step into troll territory, it's not surprising that those who see Plan-B as an abortion see the pill in the same light.

    an_alt on
    Pony wrote:
    I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
    Xbox - PearlBlueS0ul, Steam
    If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Yeah, nobody's going to start banning The Pill, guys, even if a website exists with people who'd really like to. If I look hard enough I can find a website made by people that want to repeal the Nineteenth Amendment, too. Also not going to happen.

    Daedalus on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    By the way, you have to love any organization whose talking points have citations from the Quiverfull Fact Sheet and a publishing company called "Eternal Life"

    Yeah I love how footnotes apparently make something legit even if they don't point to any kind of reliable or legitimate resource.

    I take it you read Coulter's last "opus"?

    AngelHedgie on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Nobody's going to ban the Pill, but they might make it harder for minors to get it in some states. And I can see the abstinence / promise ring crowd picking up some of these 'the pill kills' myths to further scare kids away from birth control.

    Edit: and by the way, this isn't some random website. This is the American Life League, which is one of the larger pro-life organizations in the United States. They're capable of making life a little more difficult for a lot of people.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    Controversy CowControversy Cow Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Nobody's going to ban the Pill, but they might make it harder for minors to get it in some states. And I can see the abstinence / promise ring crowd picking up some of these 'the pill kills' myths to further scare kids away from birth control.

    Edit: and by the way, this isn't some random website. This is the American Life League, which is one of the larger pro-life organizations in the United States. They're capable of making life a little more difficult for a lot of people.



    Also, I assume these folks are doing all they can to prevent the morning after pill from becoming available.

    Controversy Cow on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Nobody's going to ban the Pill, but they might make it harder for minors to get it in some states. And I can see the abstinence / promise ring crowd picking up some of these 'the pill kills' myths to further scare kids away from birth control.

    Edit: and by the way, this isn't some random website. This is the American Life League, which is one of the larger pro-life organizations in the United States. They're capable of making life a little more difficult for a lot of people.



    Also, I assume these folks are doing all they can to prevent the morning after pill from becoming available.

    And they're certainly supporting some of those pharmacist-discretion laws.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Here's a map of planned protests. http://thepillkills.com/maps.html

    What do you guys think about showing up and handing out out counter-information?

    People protesting in front of health clinics is one of the things that gets me really really steamed.

    Medopine on
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    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Here's a map of planned protests. http://thepillkills.com/maps.html

    What do you guys think about showing up and handout out counter-information?

    People protesting in front of health clinics is one of the things that gets me really really steamed.

    That sounds like a good idea.
    I'm far too lazy to create information though.

    Picardathon on
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    TorgoTorgo Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Good thing I wear the patch!

    Reminds me of this: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48199

    I'll see you that, and raise you this. "We must deploy troops to Jessica Linden's Uterus Immediately."

    Torgo on
    History is a spoiler for the future. (Me on Twitter)
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    The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Hahah oh man this is my favorite
    Q: How do you know when life begins?
    A: It is a proven, scientific fact that when the human egg and human sperm unite, fertilization occurs and a new human being is created.

    Medo, stop being a murderer.
    By having a period you are letting your eggs die. It is a well known FACT that when eggs are not fertilized, it is like killing a hundred babies.

    The Muffin Man on
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    Foxy_RoxyFoxy_Roxy Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Here's a map of planned protests. http://thepillkills.com/maps.html

    What do you guys think about showing up and handing out out counter-information?

    People protesting in front of health clinics is one of the things that gets me really really steamed.

    Hey, they're protesting the clinic where I get my shot.
    Those bastards.

    Foxy_Roxy on
    linkdb4.png
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Foxy_Roxy wrote: »
    Medopine wrote: »
    Here's a map of planned protests. http://thepillkills.com/maps.html

    What do you guys think about showing up and handing out out counter-information?

    People protesting in front of health clinics is one of the things that gets me really really steamed.

    Hey, they're protesting the clinic where I get my shot.
    Those bastards.

    Quiet, preborn child killer!

    Medopine on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I think we should employ their own methods against them. You know, huge signs with really gross fabricated pictures on them, finding a twisted logic under which we can call them murderers, shame members to the point of suicide, pipe-bombs...

    ViolentChemistry on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Dead people can't vote, you know. Er, except in Chicago.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Here's a map of planned protests. http://thepillkills.com/maps.html

    What do you guys think about showing up and handing out out counter-information?

    People protesting in front of health clinics is one of the things that gets me really really steamed.

    There will be one next to at least two of my local Planned Parenthood clinics. I do plan on counter-protesting with signs that say things like "Dangerous Lies Cost Lives" and "God kills babies too." And hopefully we'll have "Every Sperm is Sacred" playing on a continuous loop via a loud boom-box. really I can't think of a batter way to protest this nonsense.

    Curly_Brace on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    There's a guy who drives around San Mateo (CA) with a truck covered in posterboard featuring gruesome pictures of aborted fetuses.

    I've been wondering if I could get him nailed on obscenity laws.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm Catholic and for the most part anti abortion( Partial birth mainly). I have the stance of "You couldn't think to use one of the hundreds of contraceptives available? Maybe you shouldn't have had sex"( I realize of course that telling someone to use a contraceptive makes me a horrible catholic).

    Having said that if a person chooses this course of action it is none of my business especially if they've been denied alternatives such as birth control because of retarded laws brought on by lobbyists.

    King Riptor on
    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm Catholic and for the most part anti abortion( Partial birth mainly). I have the stance of "You couldn't think to use one of the hundreds of contraceptives available? Maybe you shouldn't have had sex"( I realize of course that telling someone to use a contraceptive makes me a horrible catholic).

    Would you support abortion in the case of rape?

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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