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"Purity Balls", Or Objectify Them While They're Young

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Posts

  • KonovaKonova Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    This is fairly old news. It's been torn to shreds in the blogosphere multiple times already. Parts of the mainstream media, like Bill Maher, has had a go at it as well.

    Daddy's Little Hymen
    I Survived My Purity Ball and All I Got Was This Lousy T-shirt
    Youtube knows all/Daddy’s little hymen
    Who wants to join me in hosting a Slut Ball?
    Bill Maher on purity balls
    Segment in Dr Phil, "This culture is not my standard; my father is my standard because he tells me who I am to be in life."
    Quick Video Hit: Purity Balls
    There's nothing rebellious about "purity"
    The chastity-industrial complex (AIDS "awareness", "Integrity balls" for boys)

    More Purity Ballz

    That's just some of the older entries regarding this from two blogs.

    Check out this one especially:
    Purity or Integrity?

    It is a de-humanizing, objectifying, pseudo-incestuous means of "property" control, basically. Just another thing coming out of archaic views on gender roles, sex and sexuality.

    EDIT: The Thrill of the Chaste, Introduction/Chapter 2.

    Konova on
    "It's not murder, it's surprise death!"
  • foursquaremanfoursquareman Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Konova wrote: »
    It is a de-humanizing, objectifying, pseudo-incestuous means of "property" control, basically. Just another thing coming out of archaic views on gender roles, sex and sexuality.

    Yes, I must say, dads telling their daughters that they love them and want to protect them is one of the worst things happening in society today.

    foursquareman on
  • StarcrossStarcross Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Konova wrote: »
    It is a de-humanizing, objectifying, pseudo-incestuous means of "property" control, basically. Just another thing coming out of archaic views on gender roles, sex and sexuality.

    Yes, I must say, dads telling their daughters that they love them and want to protect them is one of the worst things happening in society today.

    Thats not really what I got from the article. Did you read the article in the OP?

    Starcross on
  • foursquaremanfoursquareman Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Yes I did. I guess the image I got from it was one of fathers (perhaps misguided) who wanted to share something special with their daughters. Far from anything "pseudo-incestuous".

    foursquareman on
  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    [sarcasm]
    Look the message is obvious here, I can't believe we are even arguing about it. If your not doing your best to make your daughter a slut and using you own misguided world view to objectify her then your just a bad parent.

    Its pretty obvious that these parties send one message, and one message only.

    If i cant hit it, no one can
    [/sarcasm]

    Detharin on
  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    valiance wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    It's hard to say from that quote whether the author is saying the future fathers-in-law are with grade school/high school girls, rather than just with the college girls.
    What?

    "Loss tinged many at the ball. Stephen Clark, 64, came to the ball for the first time with Ashley Avery, 17, who is “promised” to his son, Zane, 16."
    I don't think that's so awful.
    They're first cousins.
    The Cat wrote: »
    There are events for boys and their mothers as well, they just lack the creepy vibe because the power differential isn't the same.
    It's all good fun until someone loses their eyes.

    GungHo on
  • StarcrossStarcross Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Yes I did. I guess the image I got from it was one of fathers (perhaps misguided) who wanted to share something special with their daughters. Far from anything "pseudo-incestuous".

    It's possible to do somethnig special with your daughter that doesn't involve obsessing over her virginity. Crazy but true.

    Starcross on
  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    The way it was worded -- "promised to" not "engaged to" -- makes me think it's an arranged marriage.
    It's not. As has been explained, it's not uncommon in Thumper communites, and we used to have them in my area of the world all the time (promise rings, etc). It means nothing to anyone who isn't a moon-eyed teenager or a parent who hopes their kid won't do what they did: go to college and fuck anything that moves.

    GungHo on
  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Starcross wrote: »
    Yes I did. I guess the image I got from it was one of fathers (perhaps misguided) who wanted to share something special with their daughters. Far from anything "pseudo-incestuous".

    It's possible to do somethnig special with your daughter that doesn't involve obsessing over her virginity. Crazy but true.

    Yes, because according to this article, this is the ONLY thing these fathers have ever done for their daughters.

    saint2e on
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    GungHo wrote: »
    The way it was worded -- "promised to" not "engaged to" -- makes me think it's an arranged marriage.
    It's not. As has been explained, it's not uncommon in Thumper communites, and we used to have them in my area of the world all the time (promise rings, etc). It means nothing to anyone who isn't a moon-eyed teenager or a parent who hopes their kid won't do what they did: go to college and fuck anything that moves.

    The fundie girls I knew in college all skanked out the moment they got away from their parents

    nexuscrawler on
  • KonovaKonova Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Detharin wrote: »
    If your not doing your best to make your daughter a slut...

    What's a "slut"? Isn't that just one of the main terms used to attack and denigrate females for participating in basic unisex behaviour? Like "whore"?

    Hmm... I just don't know. Given your participation here for example, I thought you might be able to enlighten me given your apparent experience of applying concepts and rhetoric partly stemming from ideas supporting such notions.
    Detharin wrote: »
    ...and using you own misguided world view to objectify her then your just a bad parent.

    Oh, dear... Parents who do this do it as a means to protect their daughters from objectification?! The very nature of the pro-chastity/pro-abstinence/anti-sex/anti-choice idealogy objectifies young girls/women by reducing their worth to their vaginas, their future everything hinging on what happens to enter it. It's just the same old religious fundamentalism at work...
    Konova wrote: »
    It is a de-humanizing, objectifying, pseudo-incestuous means of "property" control, basically. Just another thing coming out of archaic views on gender roles, sex and sexuality.

    Yes, I must say, dads telling their daughters that they love them and want to protect them is one of the worst things happening in society today.

    Protect them from what exactly? Taking into account the driving forces and reasons for aforementioned idealogy, and the unhealthiness of the manifestations of such idealogy rendering this kind of "protection" less than ideal anyway (not mentioning most still end up having pre-marital sex, just in that lovely ignorant and dangerous way)...

    Konova on
    "It's not murder, it's surprise death!"
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    You did see Detharin's sarcasm tags, right?

    Apothe0sis on
  • KonovaKonova Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Yup.

    Show how what he said could generally be interpreted as not a stab at those advocating against this practice.

    Konova on
    "It's not murder, it's surprise death!"
  • NarianNarian Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Yes I did. I guess the image I got from it was one of fathers (perhaps misguided) who wanted to share something special with their daughters. Far from anything "pseudo-incestuous".

    blinders.gif

    Narian on
    Narian.gif
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    GungHo wrote: »
    The way it was worded -- "promised to" not "engaged to" -- makes me think it's an arranged marriage.
    It's not. As has been explained, it's not uncommon in Thumper communites, and we used to have them in my area of the world all the time (promise rings, etc). It means nothing to anyone who isn't a moon-eyed teenager or a parent who hopes their kid won't do what they did: go to college and fuck anything that moves.

    The fundie girls I knew in college all skanked out the moment they got away from their parents

    Yar. Pretty much that.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
    mrsatansig.png
  • KonovaKonova Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Narian wrote: »
    Yes I did. I guess the image I got from it was one of fathers (perhaps misguided) who wanted to share something special with their daughters. Far from anything "pseudo-incestuous".

    blinders.gif

    From here:
    I, (daughter’s name)’s father, choose before God to cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity. I will be pure in my own life as a man, husband and father. I will be a man of integrity and accountability as I lead, guide and pray over my daughter and as the high priest in my home. This covering will be used by God to influence generations to come.

    Just a small tidbit among thousands upon thousands of tidbits showing off the standard fundie-fathers-obsessing-over-their-daughters-bits-phenomenon.

    Konova on
    "It's not murder, it's surprise death!"
  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I was going to defend the thing in the article as "good idea, poorly executed", but I realized it only barely dovetails with a good idea. I'm all for communities (including churches) to educate young women on self-esteem and how they don't need to tie their self-worth to sexual attention. Unfortunately, the practice in the article seems to be less about them empowering young women than an empty ritual to reinforce the authority of the fathers.

    With some tweaks these "purity balls" could be changed to "esteem parties", and I'd be totally on board.

    Edit: What I did like from the article was stressing that the father should be a good role model. When a young woman's father treats women disrespectfully around her, she eventually starts to think that's just how relationships with men work. Though, I'm doubtful that's the kind of advice the fathers at these things are getting.

    templewulf on
    Twitch.tv/FiercePunchStudios | PSN | Steam | Discord | SFV CFN: templewulf
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    templewulf wrote: »
    I was going to defend the thing in the article as "good idea, poorly executed", but I realized it only barely dovetails with a good idea. I'm all for communities (including churches) to educate young women on self-esteem and how they don't need to tie their self-worth to sexual attention.

    I agree. These balls are doing exactly the opposite - ascribing worth to women based solely on their sexual state.

    KalTorak on
  • TachTach Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    The whole thing (pictures and descriptions included) just leaves me feeling... eeerrrruugggghhh. I mean, I'm sure there are good thoughts and intentions that are imbued therein, but man...

    It's just hinky.

    Tach on
  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Konova wrote: »
    It is a de-humanizing, objectifying, pseudo-incestuous means of "property" control, basically. Just another thing coming out of archaic views on gender roles, sex and sexuality.

    Yes, I must say, dads telling their daughters that they love them and want to protect them is one of the worst things happening in society today.

    No one said this. You continue to miss the point.

    Medopine on
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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    KalTorak wrote: »
    templewulf wrote: »
    I was going to defend the thing in the article as "good idea, poorly executed", but I realized it only barely dovetails with a good idea. I'm all for communities (including churches) to educate young women on self-esteem and how they don't need to tie their self-worth to sexual attention.

    I agree. These balls are doing exactly the opposite - ascribing worth to women based solely on their sexual state.

    Nail. Head.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Podly wrote: »
    Medopine wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    Medo, honey, the men are talking.

    Have you seen my purity around, daddy? I misplaced it the other day...

    I gave it to my friend's son for a pack mule and 40 cubits of wood.

    guys don't stop i'm close

    MikeMan on
  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Therefore do not give positive attention to anyone for anything because then you are ascribing worth to that person just for whatever it is that you're proud of them for.

    Awesome.

    saint2e on
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  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    mcdermott wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    Therefore do not give positive attention to anyone for anything because then you are ascribing worth to that person just for whatever it is that you're proud of them for.

    Awesome.

    There's a difference between giving positive attention to somebody for making a wise personal choice and throwing a prom for their hymen.

    I'll admit, it's a bit creepy. But I'm not sure why it's objectifying or anything like that.

    Would it be the same thing if there were young men involved instead of young women?

    saint2e on
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  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    mcdermott wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    Therefore do not give positive attention to anyone for anything because then you are ascribing worth to that person just for whatever it is that you're proud of them for.

    Awesome.

    There's a difference between giving positive attention to somebody for making a wise personal choice and throwing a prom for their hymen.

    I'll admit, it's a bit creepy. But I'm not sure why it's objectifying or anything like that.

    Would it be the same thing if there were young men involved instead of young women?

    If the social norms and stigmas regarding male chastity were the same, yes.

    Well that's a cop-out answer if I ever heard one.

    saint2e on
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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    saint2e wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    Would it be the same thing if there were young men involved instead of young women?

    If the social norms and stigmas regarding male chastity were the same, yes.

    Well that's a cop-out answer if I ever heard one.

    Yes, because refusing to disconnect a behavior from the social context is a "cop-out."

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    And here I thought we were above social norms in D&D. I guess not.

    saint2e on
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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    saint2e wrote: »
    And here I thought we were above social norms in D&D. I guess not.

    Buh?

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • edited May 2008
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  • hawkboxhawkbox Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I think hes fucking with you guys, cause I'm not entirely sure he's even speaking english anymore.

    hawkbox on
  • SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    There is something profoundly creepy about this concept
    I attribute a large portion of this unease to the last line of the article.

    SithDrummer on
  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I still fail to see how men wanting their daughters to abstain from sex is objectifying. Especially considering this Purity Ball dealie seems to be affiliated with a Christian denomination of some sort, and everyone's well aware of the importance that's placed on virginity.

    Admittedly Daddy-Daughter balls are a bit creepy when they're aged 17+, I have no problem admitting that. It'd be much less creepy if it were a Mother-Daughter day (which I've also heard happening).

    I just still fail to see the objectification.

    saint2e on
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  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    saint2e wrote: »
    I still fail to see how men wanting their daughters to abstain from sex is objectifying. Especially considering this Purity Ball dealie seems to be affiliated with a Christian denomination of some sort, and everyone's well aware of the importance that's placed on virginity.

    So since we're "well aware" of it, we are not allowed to condemn it? I have no idea where you're going with this.

    The emphasis placed on virginity is what is objectifying about this.

    MikeMan on
  • narv107narv107 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    mcdermott wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    And here I thought we were above social norms in D&D. I guess not.

    Well, the point is that male virginity isn't fetishized, either in society in general and in particular among the groups who throw these little virgin parties, so no having a male purity ball wouldn't be quite as creepy. If, on the other hand, the people throwing the ball did fetishize male virginity to the extent they do female, then it would indeed be equally creepy.

    Er, among fundie christians it is just as important for males to remain virgins until they are married.

    narv107 on
  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    MikeMan wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    I still fail to see how men wanting their daughters to abstain from sex is objectifying. Especially considering this Purity Ball dealie seems to be affiliated with a Christian denomination of some sort, and everyone's well aware of the importance that's placed on virginity.

    So since we're "well aware" of it, we are not allowed to condemn it? I have no idea where you're going with this.

    The emphasis placed on virginity is what is objectifying about this.

    Well that's fine, you don't believe in that, that's fine.

    I'm still not seeing objectification. If you emphasize that you don't want your son or daughter to get a tattoo, does that mean you're objectifying them?

    saint2e on
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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    MikeMan wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    I still fail to see how men wanting their daughters to abstain from sex is objectifying. Especially considering this Purity Ball dealie seems to be affiliated with a Christian denomination of some sort, and everyone's well aware of the importance that's placed on virginity.

    So since we're "well aware" of it, we are not allowed to condemn it? I have no idea where you're going with this.

    The emphasis placed on virginity is what is objectifying about this.

    I'd say there's a pretty clear message here: a woman belongs to her father until she belongs to her husband. She never belongs to herself.

    If there were never a point in history where women were treated like property; if there wasn't this whole atavistic ritual involving a father "giving away" the bride at a wedding; then maybe I wouldn't see it that way.

    If there was ever a time in this country where men were treated like property in analogous fashion, given like prime cattle from mothers to brides, then perhaps I'd see a gender reversal argument as holding water.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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