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So I've Decided I Hate One Of My Friends...
An-D
EnthusiastAshevilleRegistered User regular
EnthusiastAshevilleRegistered User regular
Okay, I'm going to simplify a long story here. There is this guy...lets call him 'Sam', and he's a grad student and always has these quiet little parties at his place. Drinking, hookah, coffee, drugs...name your poison, he has it all there.
I met Sam about a year and a half ago when he joined our fencing club. Since he works at the school, he became the club advisor so we wouldn't have to deal with the real old person we had before. He has his uses.
Now, Sam is a manipulative bastard. He brags about being manipulative and all the people he is able to manipulate. He's the only person I've ever met that does this - it just doesn't seem like a friendly thing to do.
To the current story. Basically, last July, I broke up with my girlfriend (well, she broke up with me). No big deal. Lets call ex-girlfriend Kate. Until like a week or two later, she starts dating Sam. Fast little rebound there. But whatever, I was pretty much over her. About a month later, another friend tells me, last April or May, that Sam told her that Kate would be dating him by the end of the summer.
Now, I'm over Kate, but this kind of blows me away. I knew Sam was manipulative, but I didn't think he'd turn it on people that were his friends. Kate and I were fine until that summer when we started to have problems and by the end of July *bam* its over.
When I got this information, I didn't know what to do. I kind of sat on it for a while. I kept going to Sam's little parties, but didn't really say much - kind of just laughed when I was supposed to and made very small talk. I mostly kept going because his place was a central location where all my other friends would meet. I went for them pretty much.
Because, quite frankly, fuck Sam.
He's a flat-out social bully. If he invites you to his place, you better for damn sure be there or he will be personally offended and pretty much mock you or insult you and assume you have some kind of dark ulterior motive for not going to his party.
Example. In March, Jane's (girl who originally told me of Sam's 'dating Kate by end of summer' thing) husband was back for a while after being stationed in Korea for over a year (Army dude). He left at the end of March, and needless to say, Jane was a bit depressed and wasn't willing to go to Sam's party that night. She told him so and that she was tired. So the entire night, Sam mocks her. Whenever someone comes, he tells them pretty much immediately that "Jane isn't here because she's "tired" " in this smug, sarcastic tone. Because god forbid someone not go to his parties. And Jane is literally the nicest girl I've ever met. Ever since I started college (she's 2 years older than me) she's been nothing but a friend to me. I eventually get sick of Sam's shit and say: "Her husband just left to go back to Korea. Give her a fucking break." He stares at me for a moment, obviously about to retort, but two other people back me up pretty fast. He drops it and doesn't bring Jane up again.
Example 2. At the end of last summer, one of my friends was having a bad day, so he went out to take a call and another friend locked him out. Sort of a ha-ha kind of prank. We all expected him to just knock and we'd let him back in. Well, he was having a bad day, so he left. Sam *never* forgave him for leaving early. He still alienates him to this day. It was kind of a dick thing to do at the time because army-friend was back for a week, but after like a week or two, nobody cared. Except for Sam.
We typically try to ignore his social bullying and manipulation, but its gotten to the point, where I'm pretty sure I can do better as far as friends go. I don't want to deal with him anymore.
He just got back from vacation the other day, so I'm expecting tomorrow or the next day for him to IM me saying 'Party at my place!' or something. I'm sick of him and I should've alienated him months ago when I first found out about the bullshit he pulled on me. One of my friends from back home suggests that I just punch him in his smug face - but I'd rather not resort to violence (though I might bring her up one day to take him out
)
So basically...I don't want to see this one 'friend' anymore.
Is it fair of me to do this? Should I try to confront him about it or just drop it until he stops bothering me?
(it should be noted, that he and Kate are moving to a town 30 minutes away from my current location in about a months time. It'll be easier to avoid him than, but right now he's about 3 minutes from me). Should I wait till he moves before I separate myself from him? They're expecting their new house to be an awesome party place (even though its like 30 minutes away from everyone else).
I really don't want to make a lot of drama in this situation. Is it possible for me to avoid this?
I don't know how much influence he has over what the group thinks, but I'm very much expecting that once I stop showing up, for him to start talking about me (he's a psych major so he think he knows shit about behavior/people etc). How can I deal with my reputation being...well, torn apart? I'm not going to make my other friends decide to chose me over him or anything, that would be a jerk thing to do, but I expect they'll still go to his place and I'll just catch them at random other gatherings.
Am I doing the right thing? I can definitely tolerate Sam (I've been tolerating him ever since I found out about the whole 'dating by the end of the summer' thing), but at the same time...I feel like he fucking backstabbed me.
It should be noted that I live with one of my friends that has no idea any of this has gone on. As far as I know, he doesn't have a problem with Sam. Whenever Sam has a party, roomate will not doubt ask if I want a ride over...so how to deal with that subtly would be great (I really don't want to make people chose sides...and I feel I would be doing that if I said 'I hate Sam' and explain why)
Bleh. Any ideas, suggestions or whatever would be awesome. Most of my friends are saying to beat the shit out of him or just ignore him till he goes away.
I met Sam about a year and a half ago when he joined our fencing club. Since he works at the school, he became the club advisor so we wouldn't have to deal with the real old person we had before. He has his uses.
Now, Sam is a manipulative bastard. He brags about being manipulative and all the people he is able to manipulate. He's the only person I've ever met that does this - it just doesn't seem like a friendly thing to do.
To the current story. Basically, last July, I broke up with my girlfriend (well, she broke up with me). No big deal. Lets call ex-girlfriend Kate. Until like a week or two later, she starts dating Sam. Fast little rebound there. But whatever, I was pretty much over her. About a month later, another friend tells me, last April or May, that Sam told her that Kate would be dating him by the end of the summer.
Now, I'm over Kate, but this kind of blows me away. I knew Sam was manipulative, but I didn't think he'd turn it on people that were his friends. Kate and I were fine until that summer when we started to have problems and by the end of July *bam* its over.
When I got this information, I didn't know what to do. I kind of sat on it for a while. I kept going to Sam's little parties, but didn't really say much - kind of just laughed when I was supposed to and made very small talk. I mostly kept going because his place was a central location where all my other friends would meet. I went for them pretty much.
Because, quite frankly, fuck Sam.
He's a flat-out social bully. If he invites you to his place, you better for damn sure be there or he will be personally offended and pretty much mock you or insult you and assume you have some kind of dark ulterior motive for not going to his party.
Example. In March, Jane's (girl who originally told me of Sam's 'dating Kate by end of summer' thing) husband was back for a while after being stationed in Korea for over a year (Army dude). He left at the end of March, and needless to say, Jane was a bit depressed and wasn't willing to go to Sam's party that night. She told him so and that she was tired. So the entire night, Sam mocks her. Whenever someone comes, he tells them pretty much immediately that "Jane isn't here because she's "tired" " in this smug, sarcastic tone. Because god forbid someone not go to his parties. And Jane is literally the nicest girl I've ever met. Ever since I started college (she's 2 years older than me) she's been nothing but a friend to me. I eventually get sick of Sam's shit and say: "Her husband just left to go back to Korea. Give her a fucking break." He stares at me for a moment, obviously about to retort, but two other people back me up pretty fast. He drops it and doesn't bring Jane up again.
Example 2. At the end of last summer, one of my friends was having a bad day, so he went out to take a call and another friend locked him out. Sort of a ha-ha kind of prank. We all expected him to just knock and we'd let him back in. Well, he was having a bad day, so he left. Sam *never* forgave him for leaving early. He still alienates him to this day. It was kind of a dick thing to do at the time because army-friend was back for a week, but after like a week or two, nobody cared. Except for Sam.
We typically try to ignore his social bullying and manipulation, but its gotten to the point, where I'm pretty sure I can do better as far as friends go. I don't want to deal with him anymore.
He just got back from vacation the other day, so I'm expecting tomorrow or the next day for him to IM me saying 'Party at my place!' or something. I'm sick of him and I should've alienated him months ago when I first found out about the bullshit he pulled on me. One of my friends from back home suggests that I just punch him in his smug face - but I'd rather not resort to violence (though I might bring her up one day to take him out
)So basically...I don't want to see this one 'friend' anymore.
Is it fair of me to do this? Should I try to confront him about it or just drop it until he stops bothering me?
(it should be noted, that he and Kate are moving to a town 30 minutes away from my current location in about a months time. It'll be easier to avoid him than, but right now he's about 3 minutes from me). Should I wait till he moves before I separate myself from him? They're expecting their new house to be an awesome party place (even though its like 30 minutes away from everyone else).
I really don't want to make a lot of drama in this situation. Is it possible for me to avoid this?
I don't know how much influence he has over what the group thinks, but I'm very much expecting that once I stop showing up, for him to start talking about me (he's a psych major so he think he knows shit about behavior/people etc). How can I deal with my reputation being...well, torn apart? I'm not going to make my other friends decide to chose me over him or anything, that would be a jerk thing to do, but I expect they'll still go to his place and I'll just catch them at random other gatherings.
Am I doing the right thing? I can definitely tolerate Sam (I've been tolerating him ever since I found out about the whole 'dating by the end of the summer' thing), but at the same time...I feel like he fucking backstabbed me.
It should be noted that I live with one of my friends that has no idea any of this has gone on. As far as I know, he doesn't have a problem with Sam. Whenever Sam has a party, roomate will not doubt ask if I want a ride over...so how to deal with that subtly would be great (I really don't want to make people chose sides...and I feel I would be doing that if I said 'I hate Sam' and explain why)
Bleh. Any ideas, suggestions or whatever would be awesome. Most of my friends are saying to beat the shit out of him or just ignore him till he goes away.
An-D on
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My advice:
What Sam did to you was a dick move regardless of whether or not you are over Kate. Don't go over there. Sam is not your friend. Don't confront him about it, I imagine he's excellent at spinning a story to his benefit. When it comes up, calmly and without saying anything too bad just say "I'm not going to hang out with Sam anymore. I'm not okay with the way he told Kate they would be dating while I was going out with her." Don't be vague but don't say any more than that. If you're not clear on why you don't want to hang out with him you're giving him room to manipulate the story. If someone wants you to explain further just say "I've got plenty of friends, I don't need to hang out with a guy who would do that." That alone is enough reason to severe a friendship. Odds are your other buddies have seen what a d-bag this guy is and they'll understand.
I'd say talk to Sam, but I imagine that wouldn't work and he'd think you were insulting him about it. And then complain to anyone. If I'm wrong, do it.
I guess my only advice would be to just distance yourself from him. Perhaps even to the point where you don't see him. Frankly, I think the grander the exit from his life you make the worse he'll make it.
But yeah, I don't know these people, take this with a grain of salt.
The trick for you is not to care about your "reputation". If your friends are really your friends you should talk with them about your mutual friend Sam and that he is not friendly at all. They either agree or disagree with you, but they will like you regardless of your opinion on Sam. If they start hating on you just because you can't stand one of their other friends they are not good friends.
Just walk the fuck away, you don't need his dominant ass taking over your social life with his drugs and money and friends. He wants everyone to look to him for their desires, once they stop doing that he's just another rich jerk with a big mouth and too much money to spend.
Fighting him doesn't help, he's a social bully and not a physical one. You cannot win by punching his teeth out.
Make a clean break from him, and be honest with your friends (including the one you live with) about why. I'd bet they don't like him that much either.
As long as nobody takes a stand against this guy (by which I don't mean hitting him, I mean actually coming forward and saying, this dude's an ass, I'm not hanging with him anymore) he's going to keep fucking with everyone through manipulation and fear of social repercussions. Don't be bullied by him, and don't play his game.
So I cut her out. Cold turkey. And I started going out by myself and with other friends. Eventually I found a group of people who aren't afflicted with the octopus death grip of my 'Sam'.
You should do the same.
I was going to post this, but less good and with more profanity.
If he starts to shit on you to your friends, well, you have to trust they won't buy it. I've been partial to the "who gives a rats ass what that piss-stain thinks of me" school of thought.
If you want to be out from under his influence, you have to stop feeding him. Just drop him. No reason, no explanation. If he asks, ignore him. If others ask, just say you have other things you'd rather do. Resist the urge to go back and 'clear things up'- that would be a reaction, and emotion, and the whole thing starts over again.
Everything you do, every bit of information you give about what you are doing and how you are feeling can be used to alienate you further from the friends that still hang with him, or draw you in closer so you'll be ready to receive an 'explaination'. Charismatic people can influence others on the spot to see things their way, and you may very well be one of these people if Sam sniffs out what is in the air, and turns his focus on you directly.
Beware of 'second ups'- proxy messengers and actions. A solid manipulator can use people close to him with one step removed (ie, Sam goes to John, John goes to you) to work thier magic and do thier bidding. This is how one manipulates by proxy; the intent being to remove that second up and converse or interact with you directly. To push you into the field where you are at a natural disadvantage.
Your power, the key to your resistance, is keeping the big picture in mind; the overall view of things you have noticed about this social circle, while staying more or less objective, and emotionally uninvolved with Sam. When his actions affect you, that is his power. Remove that power by staying aloof and detatched.
Don't let this hate for him grow- drop it, just like like you should drop him, and try your best to focus on other things. Hate, dislike, whatever, is still a strong emotional bond and can be used against you. Develop your sense of apathy towards this other person, stay uninvolved.
When you cut from this circle, you're going to lose a few friends- maybe even all of them. Maybe not. Don't be moved into confrontation, without knowing it, they will be acting as seconds, trying to either pull you back in, or shutting you out completely. Leave your bridges open, so that over time, as Sam's nature is revealed and others take the same approach and fall away, you can restore those friendships after.
It is very rare that this kind of behavior would be un-noticed by anyone else but you. It is likely others are starting to feel the same sorts of things, but feel trapped, for whatever reason. If you're the first to drop away, sometimes that's just the way it is- often these groups have a sort of core attendance and then outlying relationships. Over time though, as people grow and relationships change, bonds shift in strength, and others may find the right time to make the break.
It's good to see that you've made a choice to surround yourself with good people. The harder it is to make that choice, the more it speaks to your character. Don't be afraid of being alone for right now, its just temporary. Look for others to be with and you'll find them. Seconds will try to convince you that the olds ways are best, that that investment is not worth giving up, that that circle is the only one that understand you, or could give you what you want.
The secret to good manipulation, is making the choice you want someone to take seem better than the one you don't want them to take, so that the person convinces themselves of the actual choice. A good influencer knows the buttons to press, so that a person follows down a certain road thinking that they are the ones in charge of what they are doing.
Like right now for example- are you thinking of leaving the group because you've suddenly noticed Sam was a dick? I think you've always known that, but kept in with him anyway. Are you really close to the core group, or are you just on the fringe, brought in for a while? Did you notice him bringing you in closer after you and Kate started dating? Did you notice that you wanted to be in closer so you kept a steady attendance? Did you ever notice how exactly it was he was friendly to both of you?
Maybe Sam set the whole thing up months, or even a year in advance, giving a warning shot so that after he convinced your girlfriend to be with him instead, you would know that he planned it, know he was a dick, and leave the group all of your own accord- without him having to lift a finger. Who want's thier girlfriend's ex around? Who want's what could only be poison (his lack of respect for you) in the middle of thier circle?
A good manipulator knows in advance what the natural reactions within a person or group will be. Not even conciously, but often on an intuitive level. You're following a good course - the right course as it turns out - but it's highly possible he knew that would happen, and gave the nudge to a second up ages ago.
Most people have a hard time seeing things even a few months in advance, 3 actually, seems to be the limit for about 90 percent of the population. When a person, perhaps a Sam, can see a year into the future, there is very little to be done- one is simply outplayed. Feelings however, last longer than any specific memory, which is one reason why we have them- they remember things that we don't, and over time, feelings will build up and tell us all of the little things we have forgotten.
This process is happening throughout the group. I said before, not to give any reason, but perhaps a simple "I don't really know, I just don't trust him anymore." while still refusing to be directly in his presence, would make others ask the same question. Enough people ask, and sooner or later they will find out the answer.
no one will think you're being unreasonable. Because it's pretty reasonable to just not want to hang out with a dude.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
It's also absolutely fantastic, not to mention eloquent, advice.
I've seen people like this before, but I don't think I've ever been trapped by them
It really pisses me off. I had never done anything to Sam and he pulls this shit on me. Fuck him. I don't need that kind of person around me.
I consider myself one of the core members of the group, and I'll agree that other people have gotten sick of Sam's behavior (Jane in particular. The only reason she comes is to hang out with me/other friends). I think if I leave, others are likely to do the same thing. Sam stresses that everyone should feel relaxed and free at his place, but I never have. And I really don't think many other people have either.
I never thought of this and it annoys me. I'm still not going to his little parties. I really don't know if Kate knows what happened and at this point, I doubt it matters. If she knew the whole thing was happening, than fuck her. If not, I don't care anymore.
Blegh.
Then leave early because "you're not feeling well". When you're a safe distance from his place, call the cops.
Or you could do something that isn't fucking stupid and continuing the drama.
Never see Sam again. Don't worry about it, and try to forget him.
Don't look at it as a moral imperative so much as a common courtesy.
If others feel the same way you do, just quit doing stuff with him, and maybe others in the group will do the same. As people leave and aren't enticed by the gingerbread house he has, he'll just implode socially in the group or find other people to exert control over.
Also, you're in grad school. This isn't high school or anything, you can just leave whenever you want. What, he's going to get all pissy and write about you on Myspace? Big deal.
If you start taking people aside who didn't ask to be aside, it's going to look like war. Ditto if you start badmouthing him to others regardless. When people that you trust talk to you, like Jane, you can tell her that you were just tired of the whole thing and leave it at that. And as was mentioned before, never let yourself be baited. That's the most important thing: don't feed the troll.
I'm currently avoiding one of his parties now. He threw it as a late 'An-D's birthday party!' (My 21st birthday was like a month ago). He didn't consult me about this plan and I really don't like birthday parties either...I also read it as 'Lets get An-D drunk because he's 21!!' Just peer pressuring crap. For obvious reasons, I don't drink when I'm at Sam's. As soon as Jane found out I wasn't going, she told Sam she was staying in tonight.
And someone said grad-school. I'm still an undergraduate - Sam has like 3-4 years on me as far as age goes.
Yeah, my main thing right now is if people ask me, I'm just going to say 'I really don't like him' or something along those lines and leave it at that. If they desire more, I'll fill them in, I guess. I want to phase out quietly and as you said, avoiding feeding the troll.
What should I say than? I'm not really a great liar. Should I just say 'I don't feel like going to his place.' Because I've gone to his place for the last year or so, and people are going to start asking questions if I just stop showing up using that as an excuse. I'd like to stir the pot as little as possible.
I sat in the guy's parties for months in an effort to not stir the pot. Its going to happen now, theres no avoiding it. But I'm sick of the guy and I don't want to deal with him.
I think letting people wonder and jump to conclusions would stir the pot more than just telling them why I'm not there anymore (if they ask) and saying 'I don't care what you do. I'm out of there though.'
I know he said a few things behind my back last year, but because I was always nice to him other people told him to shut up and I never had to react. This year I don't live with him and he's basically out my life.
Seriously, take the high road and don't bother badmouthing him. When you do speak to him, just smile, make small talk and don't give him ammunition. Don't tell him your opinion on anything controversial and don't give him a specific reason for not turning up to his parties (other than vague ones like a family member is visiting/got to work/etc) and just leave it. Same with other people. Telling people you dislike him is basically asking them to take sides and/or spread rumours. You will come off worse.
Eventually, he'll have very little to do with your life and at the very least he can't say anything bad about you without looking like a dick because you haven't given him (or any onlooker) a reason to hate you. Good friends will continue to be good friends and if anyone believes the crap he comes out with, they probably weren't worth speaking to anyway (this is the attitude I took and I'm more than happy with the friends I have now)...
The only people who need to know you don't like him are close friends that you know wouldn't screw you over. People like Kate. Otherwise let them work it out for themselves.
Indeed, the best way to solve it is to cut him out of your life in my opinion. It tends to solve the issue fairly well.
Being so proud of doing something so crappy = Looking like a spineless weasel
Bragging about it to other people = looking like you have low self esteem by seeking their approval for it
Telling them what you're doing = looking like an idiot and making bloody well certain to screw up any efforts you have of manipulating them in the future.
If he were low key about it and had more pull in his social circle I'd be worried but since he's functionally retarded I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Random Guy: Hey dude why weren't you at Sam's last night?
You: I just don't really like him that much anymore.
[Later, at Sam's]
Random Guy: Hey Sam what's up with you and An-D? he said he didn't like you, did something happen?
Sam: Man I dunno, he's been acting really weird lately. I haven't really been doing anything different from what I normally do, and I even threw him that bday party where he never showed up. It's kind of weird how he randomly just stops liking his friends and cuts him out of his life... I'm glad I didn't get much closer to him or I'd be really hurt by that kind of stuff. Good thing I'm so easygoing that it's not a big deal to me.
Everyone There: Yeah now that you mention it he has been acting weirdly recently! What a weird dude. You're cool for taking the high road, Sam.
Sam: Thanks!
Scenario B:
Random Guy: Hey dude why weren't you at Sam's last night?
You: I just didn't really feel like it.
[Later, at Sam's]
Sam: Where's An-D? He wasn't here last time either.
Random Guy: He told me he just didn't feel like coming last time, maybe it's the same thing this time
Sam: What a dick, why wouldn't he want to come? God I swear that guy sometimes.
Everyone there: Whoa Sam it's not a huge deal, don't freak out about it, why does he have to come if he doesn't feel like it?
Sam: What? I'm meeeeelting!
(slightly embellished)
Drama's going to happen, it's not his fault, but it's going to happen. Sounds like if he just sits there and takes it, he's going to get smeared behind his back either way, so he might as well tell the truth to people who ask.
This is very true and also very
You just need to have reasons to not show up. With my "Sam" it would be anything I'd rather do than hang out with her. For instance, "Argh, I'm right in the middle of a huge apartment clean up and im really tired!" or "Damn, I'm seeing my mother! Family, huh?" Eventually I stopped getting invitations and eventually I stopped having to find excuses.
But the thinner your excuses are veiled, the quicker everyone will get the hint that you're not into this dudes shindigs anymore.
Anyway, let us know what happens.
I've had friends like Sam before, and once you start to notice their bullshit the best thing to do is completely sever all ties with them. As Sarcastro said, they WILL use other people to get to you, intentionally spreading drama and rumors about you with the knowledge and intent that it will reach your ears.
Oh, and Sam always wants people over at his place because being in his home gives him a natural advantage over anyone else. He is more comfortable in his surroundings, while everyone else is not. When you are uncomfortable, you are more prone to suggestions and manipulation. Don't go to his house again if you have a choice.
He probably brags about his 'abilities' because he believes himself to be superior to other people who aren't as charismatic as he is. He also wants recognition and people to think he is special. Another reason why he always wants you over at his place. He seeks validation..don't give it to him.
Well adjusted salesmen are pretty easy to spot, since they're pretty common. They're the person that everybody likes, but can't explain why. Everyone wants to hang out with them, but they might not necessarily be extroverted individuals. They are very good at getting people to do what they want, to the point where most of them don't notice it. I always thought it was weird why noone in my group of friends ever makes a decision, they always defer to me whenever there is a question of where to eat / what movie to see.
People like Sam are leeches, and LOVE drama. It's worse that he's a psychology major, so he has probably learned all of this and knows about it. Sorry to hear about your situation
"So did you have fun *not* going to Sam's last night."
And I was all: "Eh." and he kind of dropped it. Not sure if that was the right response, but he didn't seem to care.