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Friend zone... it sucks.
Ryadic
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Some of you may remember my previous thread about my blind date. The date went well. We had a good time and we got along very well. One thing she mentions during this day, that I took a mental note of, is that she got out of a year long relationship in March. Not too long ago, but she said it was a bad break up and she sounded as though it hurt a lot. Makes sense. It's never easy after that length of time.
Went on a second date a week ago tonight. I told her we can go where she wants, and she picked the movies to see The Strangers (which is a decent movie). I told her that I'll see Sex and the City with her if she wants, cause I know she wants to see it and I thought this would score brownie points, and she insisted on The Strangers. I'm thinking, "Alright, scary movie with her. Maybe she wants me to, ahem, protect her. :winky:"
So we get to the theatre and are sitting there during the commercials and just talking again. Movie starts and she is a bit... distant. She isn't close like she wants me there nor does she seem to wanna hold my hand. Ok, maybe she just wants to take it slow. One part of the movie she jumps and causes me to jump as well. I laugh at her, and pat her hand, which is on her knee, and jokingly ask, "Are you gonna be ok?" I leave my hand there for a sec to see if she takes the bait... and no. Alright, that's fine.
So after the movie we're walking to our cars (we drove seperately) and I ask if she wants to go elsewhere to hang out and talk, and she says she's tired and just wants to go home to sleep. Now, in the little bit I've known her, this is probably true. She works a stressful job and likes to get to sleep pretty early (10) the night before she works. But it just kind of makes me feel that she's not into me, you know?
So we're talking and texting back and forth on and off for the next few days, and I am really starting to get the friend vibe from her. That's cool and all. I like her, but unless I think a girl likes me, I don't really like them that much usually. I have to think/know a girl likes me before I really start to like them. It's part of the attraction for me usually.
So on Saturday my friends suggests that we go on a double date so they can judge based on her interaction with me if she likes me or not. That was scheduled for tonight.
So this girl and I are texting today and she ends up saying "I just want you to know that I hang out with a lot of guys. It's just how I am and they consider me one of the 'guys'."
I'm fine with this, it doesn't bother me. She just kind of gave me a heads up, I didn't ask questions or get jealous or anything, so it was just a harmless comment. I told her that I'm fine with that, and that I have close girl friends and blah blah blah. I also say to her that she is just hard to figure out. She asks me what she means, and I tell her that comments like that make it hard to figure out if she actually likes me or if she wants to just be friends. Then she says it, she just rather be friends. She said she's not ready for a relationship.
I was starting to like her, but not so much that this hurts or anything. So we talk a bit more through texts about this and I let her know I'm fine with that and I'm happy she told me now.
We're still going on our double date tonight. So I plan on using this opportunity to get more information. Why isn't she ready for a relationship, what happened in her last one, and if she could ever consider dating me in the future. Our date is planned as just a walk in the park. Free, and a lot of time to be together with nothing to do but talk.
My advice that I'm looking for from you guys is how to do this? What's the best way to do it without upsetting her or offending her? She's pretty up front and honest just as I am. She knows that I'm honest and what not, so I doubt I can offend her, but, you know, I'd rather be safe. I'm not too nervous about this or anything, but I always like getting advice on things before I act, so whatever little advice you could give would be great.
Went on a second date a week ago tonight. I told her we can go where she wants, and she picked the movies to see The Strangers (which is a decent movie). I told her that I'll see Sex and the City with her if she wants, cause I know she wants to see it and I thought this would score brownie points, and she insisted on The Strangers. I'm thinking, "Alright, scary movie with her. Maybe she wants me to, ahem, protect her. :winky:"
So we get to the theatre and are sitting there during the commercials and just talking again. Movie starts and she is a bit... distant. She isn't close like she wants me there nor does she seem to wanna hold my hand. Ok, maybe she just wants to take it slow. One part of the movie she jumps and causes me to jump as well. I laugh at her, and pat her hand, which is on her knee, and jokingly ask, "Are you gonna be ok?" I leave my hand there for a sec to see if she takes the bait... and no. Alright, that's fine.
So after the movie we're walking to our cars (we drove seperately) and I ask if she wants to go elsewhere to hang out and talk, and she says she's tired and just wants to go home to sleep. Now, in the little bit I've known her, this is probably true. She works a stressful job and likes to get to sleep pretty early (10) the night before she works. But it just kind of makes me feel that she's not into me, you know?
So we're talking and texting back and forth on and off for the next few days, and I am really starting to get the friend vibe from her. That's cool and all. I like her, but unless I think a girl likes me, I don't really like them that much usually. I have to think/know a girl likes me before I really start to like them. It's part of the attraction for me usually.
So on Saturday my friends suggests that we go on a double date so they can judge based on her interaction with me if she likes me or not. That was scheduled for tonight.
So this girl and I are texting today and she ends up saying "I just want you to know that I hang out with a lot of guys. It's just how I am and they consider me one of the 'guys'."
I'm fine with this, it doesn't bother me. She just kind of gave me a heads up, I didn't ask questions or get jealous or anything, so it was just a harmless comment. I told her that I'm fine with that, and that I have close girl friends and blah blah blah. I also say to her that she is just hard to figure out. She asks me what she means, and I tell her that comments like that make it hard to figure out if she actually likes me or if she wants to just be friends. Then she says it, she just rather be friends. She said she's not ready for a relationship.
I was starting to like her, but not so much that this hurts or anything. So we talk a bit more through texts about this and I let her know I'm fine with that and I'm happy she told me now.We're still going on our double date tonight. So I plan on using this opportunity to get more information. Why isn't she ready for a relationship, what happened in her last one, and if she could ever consider dating me in the future. Our date is planned as just a walk in the park. Free, and a lot of time to be together with nothing to do but talk.
My advice that I'm looking for from you guys is how to do this? What's the best way to do it without upsetting her or offending her? She's pretty up front and honest just as I am. She knows that I'm honest and what not, so I doubt I can offend her, but, you know, I'd rather be safe. I'm not too nervous about this or anything, but I always like getting advice on things before I act, so whatever little advice you could give would be great.
Ryadic on
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I'd say just try to be understanding. If she gives you some reason you dont really understand, dont push it or make her feel stupid for it, just accept it and carry on. Even if you point out what a stupid reason it is, it's not going to change her gut feeling that she doesnt want a relationship and will just make you come off as a prick.
Thats bassically all the advice I can give, understanding.
What I would do in this situation is just assume that she doesn't like you like that. Be friends with her. She's going through a tough time, so be there for her but don't use the situation to your advantage romantically. Tell her you're okay with being just friends, and leave it at that. If she wants to make it something more in the future, SHE will TELL YOU. Don't ask, or assume otherwise.
Sorry, but that's the way it works. Oh, and "Friend Zone" is probably not the best terminology, Ladder Theory is bullshit and the mods tend to get anal about using terminology related to it.
Sometime in the future she might decide that you were really cool about the whole thing and change her mind, but don't count on it. Time to go date other people and get your mind off of her.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I don't understand. Ladder Theory? Should I change it to something else instead of "Friend Zone"?
Why do you want to waste your precious time with someone who is not interested in you?, this "just rather be friends" is very depressing.
My impression, is that it's coming from the fact that she's coming out of a long relationship, and that she might otherwise be interested in him. I just had this issue, and it can be hard to stop thinking "oh, maybe I could charm the socks off of her and change her mind" or "she'll get over him before long and then I'll be set."
Also, after talking a bit more, it seems she's more reluctant to get into a relationship because she's scared to get hurt. So yeah... this will have to be taken slow.
Yeah, pretty much this. I mean my hopes aren't high or anything, but I just think that if I'm a good friend she may see me as more than that. Who knows. I'm not going to pull all my eggs in one basket, as the saying goes, so I will keep looking for other girls.
Just because she's not interested in engaging in a sexual relationship with him doesn't mean she's not interested in having any relationship with him. There's nothing wrong with friendship, even with people you are attracted to.
That's pretty much exactly the same thing that happens when someone says "I don't like you in that way." They're not saying you're a bad person, or that they would spit in your face if they ever see you again. They would even chat with you at a party. But they have no interest in cuddling you, holding your hand, kissing you, or more.
Huh, in a lot of ways it *is* pretty similar. My wife will touch green peppers and even let them be on the table. But she won't put one in her mouth. Same with this girl -- she will never let you touch her mouth.
Don't. You deserve better than that.
pining over a girl that has already told you she's not interested isn't just disrespectful to her choice, it's wasting your time. There are plenty of people out there that you could have a meaningful relationship with and who would return your feelings.
But it's completely different because human interaction is not a dichotomy between "eat green peppers" and "don't eat green peppers."
If the statement is honest, "I'm not interested in you that way" usually means one of three things: (a) "I'm not physically attracted to you." (b) "You're not really what I'm looking for in a relationship." (c) "I'm not physically attracted to you and you're not really what I'm looking for in a relationship."
"I'm not interested in you that way" is a euphemism and a meme at this point. It's just a nice way of saying that they either don't want to be in a sexual relationship with you or that they don't see you settling down behind a white picket fence some day raising chestnuts and roasting kids by the fire.
None of this, however, precludes a friendship or even a deep friendship. Such things are entirely possible. Even if one person is attracted to the other - hell, even if both people are attracted to each other to some degree - there's no reason to think they have zero interest in you. Just not a certain kind.
Having your green peppers on the table but not eating them isn't analagous to maintaining a friendship.
If I were interested romantically/sexually, and a girl politely rejects me with the overused excuse of being just friends, I would not pursue a friendship. I just don't want to be hurt after she decides she is ready for a relationship (with another guy) while I am hanging with her.
Of course, I am not saying this is going to happen, but who knows.
So is the argument that you can't be friends with girls unless they are willing to sex you? Because I personally think that is very shortsighted.
And that it is "disrespectful to her choice" is - literally - nonsense. She said "I just want to be friends." How is it disrespectful to be friends with her?
The point is he's still hanging onto hope that there could be something more in the future. I can tell you I am pretty sure that there won't be. Be friends with this girl if you want to be, but it's probably a bad idea if you are still really attracted to her.
Believe her.
A guy like the OP is going to have a really tough time being a genuine friend to this girl.
There's nothing wrong with being a friend. There is something wrong with being a friend with the belief that friendship will lead to a relationship. The chances of that happening, while not zero, are very small, and hanging on to that tiny little chance is creepy and self-destructive.
The best way to continue a friendship - if the OP would be genuinely okay being friends with zero possibility of becoming lovers - is to take some time off, limit his time alone with her for now, and date some other women.
Otherwise all he's doing is pining, and that's not healthy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Basically I'm well aware that if she wants to be friends and nothing more, then that's that. I'm just not going to pursue more unless she says that she wants to. I'm just going to have a pretty good talk with her tonight and find out all that's going on with her to see if she doesn't want a relationship because she's not into me like that or if it's just too soon after her last relationship or what. I think once I have all the information as to what's on he rmind then I will know for sure if my chances are completely over or if it's just a "friends for now and take it from there" kind of thing.
It is, though. My wife will let me put green peppers on a pizza. She even will let me mix them up with other bits of food. And then, when we eat, she will spend time picking out every green pepper so that she doesn't eat them. She lets them be friends with her food, but "she's just not into them."
In a lot of ways, that's how I see the difference between friends & dating. You can date your friends, your dates often become your friends, but there IS a dichotomy between "would date" and "would not date." Friendship doesn't come into play because you don't look for the same qualities in a friend as you do a partner.
I've friends with a lot of girls that I would never want to kiss. It's not because they're ugly or unhygenic. I just had no interest in dating them. It wasn't a date or time thing, it was something that was not going to change once we became better friends. In many cases, becoming better friends simply solidified my initial impression.
When someone tells you that they're just not into you, that means they're not into you. If they're cool, be their friend. But don't hang around trying to convince them that they were wrong. Or you'll just be picked out and put on the side of the plate, headed for the garbage.
I'd do some soul-searching for a few weeks.
Those hopes can hide out and manifest in really subtle ways.
At the very least, it's probably going to be hard for her to believe that you're not hoping for more if you don't take a little time off.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
don't do this. it just puts you both in awkward situations, and if there actually is a chance left, this'd probably kill it as it seems kind of clingy/desperate from your end.
I empathize Ryadic, but I agree with Jeff. If the answer she would theoretically give is that yes, she might like a relationship down the line, then I think that'll just end up showing itself anyway if you remain friends. If she doesn't want a relationship with you at all, it might make her feel weird.
Don't do it. Don't talk about these things now. Just leave her be. This is too forceful and too likely to bring up bad memories. Plus you'll sound desperate. She probably doesn't know whether she's into you or not yet, but if there was going to be a chance of things in the future, chances are good that you'll kill it if you do this.
Sorry, but I don't agree with anything except one sentence in your last paragraph.
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't hang around people that I don't "like." And I think "liking" someone is the same road whether you end up at friendship, fuckship, or husbandandwifeship. People are attracted to each other's personalities but sometimes that's where it ends. That's how a lot of my friendships are. I sure don't want to fuck, date, or marry any of the males I am friends with, but I would be lying if I didn't say I found certain qualities in them "attractive." You make friends with people you share interests with and that make you feel comfortable, don't you? Most successful intimate relationships are founded on a strong friendship. That said, a strong friendship can exist without anything beyond it.
Your wife dislikes peppers. She doesn't want to eat them. The analogy is false because not wanting to become intimate with someone but still wanting to be their good friend is completely different than distancing yourself from and being apathetic to your peppers. I won't eat onions. I pick them off everything. I'm not so squeamish as to leap on a chair and throw the plate of food in the trash if an onion happens to sneak on it, but when I'm picking them off, I'm saying "hey, onion, I want nothing to do with you. I don't want to interact with you." That's not the same thing as "I'm not romantically interested in you, but let's be friends." You're pretending that your wife has some kind of interest or disinterest in the peppers that relates to a non-romantic/platonic interest or disinterest in someone of the opposite sex and that just doesn't make any sense to me. Not only because humans and vegetables are (generally) quite different, but literally because it's just not a rational analogy. I mean, sometimes "hey, let's be friends" actually means "hey, let's be friends." And friendship is cool. So I have to ultimately reject any advice that suggests throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
If you can't put your feelings aside, that's one thing. If you can, then why not? I mean, it's not like Ryadic has proposed to this girl or suggested some kind of undying love for her. He's interested in her and she rejected his romantic advances. Shit, if I had a nickel for every time I hit on some girl that rejected me but I still continued either a successful friendship or acquaintanceship with I'd have a few dollars. If Ryadic was threatening to cut himself because this girl turned him down, that's one thing. But he's not. So I personally think it's bad advice to say "oh, she doesn't want to date you - forget the friendship and move on." I especially hate the suggestion that it's disrespectful to continue the friendship. I don't think you said this, but someone did, and it's fucking absurd. Maybe if all you do is go home and lust after the girl and that's literally your only reason for continuing the friendship it is, but let's all take a step back and not attribute the most cynical perspectives to Ryadic here.
"But don't hang around trying to convince them that they were wrong" - and Feral's point - are both valid because that usually goes nowhere. However, I wholeheartedly disagree with any do-or-die kind of advice that people give when it comes to relationships. Sometimes you just have to roll with things. It's very simple to me: He told her he wanted to date her and she doesn't want to date him, but she wants to be friends. Maybe that's bullshit and maybe it isn't, only she knows that. And maybe Ryadic can live with that and maybe he can't, only he knows that. But people here seem to imply that it is impossible to be attracted to someone and still be their genuine friend without complication. Like it's some kind of betrayal or that the universe will invariably pull the rug out from under you eventually. I don't agree.
Besides, people change and feelings change. I say this both about the girl AND Ryadic. There's no reason to expect he'll pine after her forever.
Despite everything I've said, I have to agree that this in particular would be very awkward.
The truth is, Ryadic, she really doesn't owe you a full explanation and people don't like being pushed into divulging everything in their heart. Sorry, but I think you're just going to have to swallow this curiosity if you want to be around her. She doesn't want a relationship with you. Either that means she doesn't want one with you now or she doesn't want one with you ever. No information you glean from asking her any of this is going to be either happy or useful. She's not going to say "well, if you ask me again in exactly 71 days I might be open to going out..." That's just not going to happen. You're going to walk away from this upset or annoyed and she's going to walk away from it thinking that you're only hanging around in some kind of misguided hope that she'll change her mind.
In short: Don't do this. I'm not suggesting you deceive the girl. Despite my above advice, I highly recommend you actually search yourself to gauge your level of interest. If it's too high, then you should distance yourself, because the moth that gets too close to the flame dies. But if she's just someone you're attracted to and think you can stomach not being the one dating and/or sleeping with her, then go for it. Just don't kick the relationship off with "so, do you think you'll ever be interested in me?" I've asked this question and I literally just cringed having to type it out. There's really no tactful way to ask this, because no matter what words you use, they all mean the same thing and they all communicate the same thing to her.
Don't do this.
We talked a bit. I did get some information from her and it went very well. We're going to stay friends and I'm happy with that. She pretty much started it when she thanked me for being honest with her earlier today with our texts and accepting to be just friends and not push it.
I asked her if it was because of her previous break up or if it was because she just didn't feel that way about me, and she was very sweet about it and said it wasn't me. She said I'm a great guy, and she likes hanging out with me, but isn't ready for another relationship. She said that a lot of things aren't going well for her, so she wants to focus on that.
Basically the advice that helped the most was for me to not push it and to just stay her friend. She was very happy about that and she ended up giving me a hug because of it.
As for me, I'm happy as can be. I'm a bit disheartened that it didn't work out like I was hoping, but I do think that we will be great friends. We get along very well. I'm not going to hang on the fact that she may one day see me as someone to date, but I will always keep that option open.
good: women friends typically make great wingmen (wing-persons?).
Totally depends on the person. Throw in the fact that many people will say they're "still hung up" simply to nicely turn a guy/girl down, and there's no way to really tell.
I mean, really. I know a ton of guys who asked a girl out, heard "I'm just not ready for a relationship after my last breakup," and then discover that they're bangin' a new boyfriend that next weekend.
By the way, girls (if there are any girls reading this)?
Don't do this.
For the love of God and all that is holy, don't do this.
If somebody asks you out and you don't like him like that, just say, "I don't like you like that." The world would be a much better place if people were just straightforward with one another instead of making up excuses.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
So yeah, no good answer for that I guess.