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Engine Help

JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
edited June 2008 in Help / Advice Forum
Aight, so I have taken apart the Cylinder Head (I think its the Cylinder head) on my motorcycle engine and I am trying to take off the section that the pistons are in. Maybe the Cylinder walls section? I don't really know but hey thats what I am trying to do.

Motherfucker won't budge, at all. Ive got the book and I have taken off all the bolts and what not. Tapped the sides with a rubber mallet, tried hammering it off with rubber mallet and wood and it still wont budge.

Any tips or tricks? It is not coming off and I have triple checked no more bolts are holding it in place.

Jigrah on

Posts

  • ZonkytonkmanZonkytonkman Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    have you removed the pistons yet?

    Zonkytonkman on
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zonkytonkman wrote: »
    have you removed the pistons yet?

    No I haven't, but from the book it seems like the pistons would come off afterwards, this is how you get too the pistons.

    Jigrah on
  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Have you split the crankcases? There could be bolts coming from the underside of the upper part of the crankcase into the bottom of the cylinder block.

    What bike is it? Post pics of engine and the bits that are causing you problems.

    Donovan Puppyfucker on
  • fuelishfuelish Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Generally(not always) if you can get the heads off the cylinders should also be free.
    Often the base gasket glues the crank case and cylinder together. You may find there is a reinforced spot around the split between the two that will allow you to use a small prybar and pop them apart. Or you may really need to whack it(knock the shit out of it) with a rubber mallet or deadblow hammer.
    The model would also be helpful.

    fuelish on
    Another day in the bike shop Pretty much what it sounds like. The secret lifestyle, laid open.
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Alright, the bike is a 1996 Suzuki Katana with a 600 cc motor.

    http://www.bikebandit.com/assets/schematics/Suzuki/SU0322_007.gif

    This is what I am trying to remove, the Cylinder block I guess.

    I have followed the manual to a T, and I have the Cylinder Head off.

    I have beat the hell outta it with a rubber mallet to try and break the gasket seal, I have double checked for bolts and reread the manual a dozen times.

    It says that you should just lift it straight up, and that is not happening. I can pry the front side of the motor up a little bit, but the other side doesn't move at all. If there is some bolts in the crank case, this is going to be a nightmare of a project.

    Any other ideas?

    Looking at the Schematics for the Crankcase I can't see any place for bolts to go into the Cylinder block. Can this really be just super stubborn glue.

    Jigrah on
  • CooterTKECooterTKE Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    there is some stuff in a spray can that freezes parts so you can work on them when it is hot. I have used it to get parts out in situations like this by freezing it (as it will shrink some) and then hit it real quick. otherwise you may take it to a machine shop who can use a press

    CooterTKE on
  • fuelishfuelish Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Why are you tearing the motor down? Is it locked up? Becuase that would explain the difficulty in removing the cylinder case.

    Of course the gaskets on a 12 year old bike can match five ton epoxy, so you may need to keep at it. Assuming the motor is not locked up you need to carefully work you way around the base of crankcase and rock the case loose. You want to use something that will not mar up the surfaces. I use some hardwood dowels I shaped to a wedge.

    fuelish on
    Another day in the bike shop Pretty much what it sounds like. The secret lifestyle, laid open.
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    fuelish wrote: »
    Why are you tearing the motor down? Is it locked up? Becuase that would explain the difficulty in removing the cylinder case.

    Of course the gaskets on a 12 year old bike can match five ton epoxy, so you may need to keep at it. Assuming the motor is not locked up you need to carefully work you way around the base of crankcase and rock the case loose. You want to use something that will not mar up the surfaces. I use some hardwood dowels I shaped to a wedge.

    I am getting 100lbs of missing pressure from one of the cylinders and I want to fix it.

    Jigrah on
  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Are the cylinder studs still in, or have you wound them out? If you get galvanic corrosion between the steel studs and the alloy cylinder block, they can literally weld themselves together. Did this compression loss come about suddenly, or was it a gradual loss of power? If the rings are worn enough, or if there was some detonation present in the dodgy cylinder, one or more of the piston rings or piton ring lands on the piston may have broken, and could be jamming in a ridge in the cylinder.

    Donovan Puppyfucker on
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    chrishallett83 wrote: »
    Are the cylinder studs still in, or have you wound them out? If you get galvanic corrosion between the steel studs and the alloy cylinder block, they can literally weld themselves together. Did this compression loss come about suddenly, or was it a gradual loss of power? If the rings are worn enough, or if there was some detonation present in the dodgy cylinder, one or more of the piston rings or piton ring lands on the piston may have broken, and could be jamming in a ridge in the cylinder.

    It was a sudden lose in power accompanied with absolutely no noise, just loss of power. When I rotate the rotor the Cylinder Walls look all pretty still and I cannot see any damage to the Cylinder Block itself. The piston moves up and down quite fine, so I don't think that they are the cause of it not coming off. However maybe damage happened beneath the piston, I just can't see it.

    I think I am going to try the freezing thing, anything there to be cautious of?

    Are the cylinder studs the long bolts that go through the cylinder head and wall. If so yes they are still in there. How can I check for corrosion to see if thats the problem?

    Jigrah on
  • fuelishfuelish Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I have been cogitating on this. I beleive there is doweling(Hollow pins to locate the cylinder on the block) and the combination of these dowels, which require you to lift the cylinder straight up and the base gasket, which wants to pivoted free of, is making the cylinder hard to get off.
    The only other thing I can think of is an oil feed line that you missed and is holding the cylinder in place.

    fuelish on
    Another day in the bike shop Pretty much what it sounds like. The secret lifestyle, laid open.
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    fuelish wrote: »
    I have been cogitating on this. I beleive there is doweling(Hollow pins to locate the cylinder on the block) and the combination of these dowels, which require you to lift the cylinder straight up and the base gasket, which wants to pivoted free of, is making the cylinder hard to get off.
    The only other thing I can think of is an oil feed line that you missed and is holding the cylinder in place.

    There are two metal oil pipes in the front of the engine, I took out one but it didn't seem to have any way of affecting the Cylinder block on (Too far away, no connecting pieces etc) so I didn't take off the other one. Maybe I will just have to take off the other one.

    Jigrah on
  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    In the picture you posted, the cylinder block studs are part number two. The easiest way to remove them is to take two of the nuts that came off the end of them when you removed the cylinder head, and wind them both on to the end of the stud. Then you take two spanners (sorry, wrenches) and tighten the nuts against each other nice and tight. This locks them onto the stud.

    Then wind out the stud by turning the lower of the two nuts, the nut which would also have to push the top nut out of the way to be able to come off the stud. If the nuts are flanged, it's better to put the flanges together when you put them on the stud so they lock together better. If you encounter problems undoing the studs, i.e. they're really ridiculously tight, or they are 'crunchy' and/or 'chattery and squeaky' whilst you are undoing them, it is most likely that the studs and cylinder head have been corroding to each other. Hopefully not too badly!

    Giving them a solid tap with a copper-head or rawhide head hammer (you must use a soft-head hammer or you will damage the studs, however a rubber hammer will be useless) whilst you are undoing them will help shock them loose, and don't forget liberal sprayings of the WD-40. Or CRC 5.56, or Penetrene, whatever you like to use.

    Because of the tight clearances between the stud and the holes in the cylinder block that they run through, it's almost impossible to tell if they are corroded until you try to undo them, because you can't see down the holes. Unless of course the corrosion is so bad that the aluminium is getting eaten away and turned to powder around the studs. Which is always cause for concern.

    Donovan Puppyfucker on
  • fuelishfuelish Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Did you remove part #6 in that diagram? I am an aircooled guy and I have never seen a stud that was just to hold the head down, like the one pictured. Sorry I did not look at the pic sooner, I thought it was just a photo of the bike.

    fuelish on
    Another day in the bike shop Pretty much what it sounds like. The secret lifestyle, laid open.
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    fuelish wrote: »
    Did you remove part #6 in that diagram? I am an aircooled guy and I have never seen a stud that was just to hold the head down, like the one pictured. Sorry I did not look at the pic sooner, I thought it was just a photo of the bike.

    Yeah I removed that stud, one thing that concerns me though is part 5 (what the stud connects too) seems to be a little bit corroded, and I think that it might be all in tight preventing me from pulling the cylinder block up.

    Jigrah on
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    chrishallett83 wrote: »
    In the picture you posted, the cylinder block studs are part number two. The easiest way to remove them is to take two of the nuts that came off the end of them when you removed the cylinder head, and wind them both on to the end of the stud. Then you take two spanners (sorry, wrenches) and tighten the nuts against each other nice and tight. This locks them onto the stud.

    Then wind out the stud by turning the lower of the two nuts, the nut which would also have to push the top nut out of the way to be able to come off the stud. If the nuts are flanged, it's better to put the flanges together when you put them on the stud so they lock together better. If you encounter problems undoing the studs, i.e. they're really ridiculously tight, or they are 'crunchy' and/or 'chattery and squeaky' whilst you are undoing them, it is most likely that the studs and cylinder head have been corroding to each other. Hopefully not too badly!

    Giving them a solid tap with a copper-head or rawhide head hammer (you must use a soft-head hammer or you will damage the studs, however a rubber hammer will be useless) whilst you are undoing them will help shock them loose, and don't forget liberal sprayings of the WD-40. Or CRC 5.56, or Penetrene, whatever you like to use.

    Because of the tight clearances between the stud and the holes in the cylinder block that they run through, it's almost impossible to tell if they are corroded until you try to undo them, because you can't see down the holes. Unless of course the corrosion is so bad that the aluminium is getting eaten away and turned to powder around the studs. Which is always cause for concern.

    This is awesome thanks, going to be doing this right now.

    Dont think I have a soft hammer though, I think I have a wood hammer but thats about it.

    Jigrah on
  • fuelishfuelish Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    You can use a piece of hardwood and a regular hammer. Just lay the wood against the stud and hit it with the hammer. It will split the wood after a while so pay attention or you can strike thru it.

    fuelish on
    Another day in the bike shop Pretty much what it sounds like. The secret lifestyle, laid open.
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    fuelish wrote: »
    You can use a piece of hardwood and a regular hammer. Just lay the wood against the stud and hit it with the hammer. It will split the wood after a while so pay attention or you can strike thru it.

    By getting the Cylinder studs out (they were stuck really tight) it made it possible to get the Cynlinder block off. However I don't know what the problem is, because the cylinder walls look scratch free and all the rings look just fine.

    Jigrah on
  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hells yeah! Victory mate!

    Are the cylinder walls dull, or shiny and smooth?

    Donovan Puppyfucker on
  • fuelishfuelish Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    If you have no failed rings or damaged cylinders, you need to look at the head. You could have the valves way out of spec, a stuck valve, a burnt valve, broken/weak valve spring, or a foreign object jammed in the valve train.
    You probably had to pull the cams to get the head off so all the valves should be fully closed. Turn out the lights and shine a flashlight into each port while looking at the valve heads. You can also dribble a little fuel into each port and see if it weeps past the valve seal. You can also remove the valves and inspect their faces and the valve seats but you need a specific tool to compress the spring and remove the keepers.(You can get it apart by placing an appropriate size socket on the spring cap and whacking with a hammer, it will compress the spring enough for the keepers to pop out. Wear safety glasses if yo do this, sometimes the keepers come shooting free. You will still need a compressor to reinstall the valves)

    fuelish on
    Another day in the bike shop Pretty much what it sounds like. The secret lifestyle, laid open.
  • JigrahJigrah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    fuelish wrote: »
    If you have no failed rings or damaged cylinders, you need to look at the head. You could have the valves way out of spec, a stuck valve, a burnt valve, broken/weak valve spring, or a foreign object jammed in the valve train.
    You probably had to pull the cams to get the head off so all the valves should be fully closed. Turn out the lights and shine a flashlight into each port while looking at the valve heads. You can also dribble a little fuel into each port and see if it weeps past the valve seal. You can also remove the valves and inspect their faces and the valve seats but you need a specific tool to compress the spring and remove the keepers.(You can get it apart by placing an appropriate size socket on the spring cap and whacking with a hammer, it will compress the spring enough for the keepers to pop out. Wear safety glasses if yo do this, sometimes the keepers come shooting free. You will still need a compressor to reinstall the valves)

    Fuelish man, I fuckin love you just so you know.

    Jigrah on
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