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Help me settle this raging debate in my head about [cars]!
1ddqd
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I'm looking at a new car mid-year 2009. I'm building my down payment as we speak. Based on the announced prices/models/numbers/reviews, I've settled on a few cars that really get me going:
In order of importance:
1) Performance (hp/tq numbers)
2) Daily Driver (mpg/comfort)
3) Price (under $35k is ideal)
3) Styling
The choices:
2009 Dodge Challenger R/T (V8 RWD)
2008 Mazdaspeed 3 (I-4 Turbo FWD)
2009 BMW 135i (I-6 Twin Turbo RWD)
2009 VW GTI R32 (I-6 Turbo AWD)
The choices are ALL OVER the place; I love the styling of all of these cars, but the overall idea is something that is CLEAN and AGGRESSIVE.
My main issue is that I have only driven the Mazdaspeed and the BMW. The BMW is marginally faster (thanks to it's RWD and twin turbo V6!) but is less utilitarian. I haven't gotten in a new Challenger, but I have ridden in an 08 4-door GTI. I love the build quality on every car I've been in and the features are mostly besides the point; I'll be ticking all option boxes when it's bought.
What it comes down to is HELP ME DECIDE ARRG!
In order of importance:
1) Performance (hp/tq numbers)
2) Daily Driver (mpg/comfort)
3) Price (under $35k is ideal)
3) Styling
The choices:
2009 Dodge Challenger R/T (V8 RWD)
2008 Mazdaspeed 3 (I-4 Turbo FWD)
2009 BMW 135i (I-6 Twin Turbo RWD)
2009 VW GTI R32 (I-6 Turbo AWD)
The choices are ALL OVER the place; I love the styling of all of these cars, but the overall idea is something that is CLEAN and AGGRESSIVE.
My main issue is that I have only driven the Mazdaspeed and the BMW. The BMW is marginally faster (thanks to it's RWD and twin turbo V6!) but is less utilitarian. I haven't gotten in a new Challenger, but I have ridden in an 08 4-door GTI. I love the build quality on every car I've been in and the features are mostly besides the point; I'll be ticking all option boxes when it's bought.
What it comes down to is HELP ME DECIDE ARRG!
1ddqd on
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I don't think you're allowed to get a Challenger unless your name is Cooter. I went to college with a guy we nicknamed "MOPAR" and whenever he walked by we'd all go, "Heh heh, HEMI, heh heh, it's got a HEMI." This was way before those commercials. So if you're ok with becoming the guy who wears a trucker hat and talks about his HEMI, go for the Dodge. It also doesn't seem to fit on your list. Three compacts and...the Challenger?
The Beemer of V-dub are going to be the best bets because of the warranty, service, support, and quality, imo.
If you can afford it, Beemer is the way to go. I think their maintenance even covers oil changes and tire rotation free for the first three years.
That being said, I would second the GTI as they are awesomely fun to drive.
I've got a friend that has the G35 and a friend that has the 350Z, and both of them agree the Z was the better choice.
There's a reason domestic cars lose their value faster than imports.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
As you can tell I'm a big GM fan the Pontiac G8 is drop dead gorgeous though.
If you need smaller, Honda Civic Si all spoiled out is also beautiful. I hate german cars =/
http://www.pontiac.com/g8/
In what climate do you live?
How long is your commute? And how many miles per year do you put on the car?
Are you going to do any of the service on the car yourself?
Are you going to be modifying the car (performance or exterior)?
Are you planning to have kids before you sell the car?
What s your car replacement cycle (before warranty runs out, every 5-7 years, drive it til the wheels fall off)?
Challenger but no Camaro? (edit: beated)
The 135i would be great but there is no way it will fall into your price range realistically. Put a couple of options on it and you are looking at a 40,000 dollar car.
Funny enough I had this debate a while back (with a slightly different selection of cars) but I decided what my next car will be. It will be a 2003 - 2005 M3. You can get a good example for 30,000 or less. If it needs any work you will have that 5 grand. But that kind of money for what is a very special car doesn't seem at all crazy even though maintenance can be expensive which at the end of the day is the only problem with M3's.
and not too bad on the wallet w/ price and fuel economy.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=24199
@ "Challenger is for rednecks" - I've always had a thing for Challengers...Cuda's, too, but there isn't a new model out, now, is there? :P
@ "Solstice?" - I'd love one, but only as a "fun" car - competes (in my head) with the S2000 and the Miata
@ "Civic" - even if I got the SI, I wouldn't forgive myself for buying something with sub 200 tq
@ "M3" - even if I get lucky and find a 5 year old M3 that HASN'T been thrashed daily, it's a BMW and on principle, I will not own a BMW with over 50,000 miles I didn't put on it. Good idea, but that's why the 135i is on the list.
@ "Demographics"
I'll be 25 in November (buying next year, so insurance weeeee!) and live in Texas (currently). I'm 5'11, 145lbs. The reason I would consider AWD is because my future is uncertain and the missus and I would like to keep our options open when considering transferring to other parts of the country.
Currently, I put about 20,000 miles on the car a year (a 2003 Chevy Cavalier, no trade-in btw). That's why Daily Driver is #2 - I don't want back-breakingly stiff suspension, but I don't want a Prius either.
@ "STI or G35?" - while I have been in both (and driven a gen 4 STI) I have to say I didn't enjoy the STI as much as the Mazdaspeed 3 and it was smaller (elbow room, leg room, etc). The G35 was great, my friend with the GTI's mom has one (ticked all option boxes) and while I love it, it's not as performance-oriented as I'd like. Yes, I could get the 350z, but I would die from "cheap-plastic-dash-itis" and "here's-a-small-bump,-there-goes-your-spine-tion" :P
I really am leaning towards the 135i and GTI more now... However, when comparing base (and top-end) prices, the Mazdaspeed sticks out as a bargain for the performance and the Challenger for it's eye-candy "bonus."
Ok, let's eliminate the Challenger. Maybe next decade.
So, I have one. 1200 miles on it so far. It's fabulous. People view it as a too-expensive GTI when it's really a 4-seater Audi TT. I drive it 20 miles each way to work- it may lack in "paper performance" vs, say, the Evo X, but it buries the turbo I4s in things like 20-50 or 50-70 acceleration, the kinds of things you do on the interstate vs the kinds of things you do on a drag strip. And the sound... brilliant. I love this car.
There was a comparison last year in Car and Driver- R32 vs WRX STi vs Mitsu Evo X. It was pretty illuminating, I'll try to dig up the link later (spoiler alert- R32 came in 2nd). Ditto for a Top Gear video review of the R32 vs the BMW 130 hatchback. They loved one of them and hated the other, you can probably guess which is which. Also it's worth mentioning that the R32 beat the Audi S4 around their track.
Here's the best news. You can find huge, huge discounts on R32s right now. I got mine for $4600 off MSRP at 3.9% financing. There's only one option (sat nav, which I didn't get) so it's not like they're down to selling the stripped cars that nobody wants.
edit: It's probably also worth mentioning that you really wouldn't want to drive a 135i priced under 35k. It has basically nothing on it.
Then I considered the 135i. Until I spec'd it out how I would want it. 40 grand. No thanks. Not when a 335 similarly spec'd is a few grand more.
A $33K rabbit? :P
That 'speed 3 is likely your most flexible bet, the lower entry point means a little less pain if you have to sell it quick. Insurance ought to be cheaper as well. I don't think it really compares to the other 3 though.
Have you checked out the mini cooper S?
FWIW I've been driving manual transmissions for 10 years but I just couldn't handle it in Los Angeles traffic. The DSG is the best possible compromise- no torque converter, no throttle lag, flappy-paddle shifting for when I want to do the work, and putting it in "S" mode makes it shift faster than I could ever manage.
If you're interested I suggest you drive one and see how you like it. It's pretty fun.
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I guess I just really enjoy being as connected as possible to the act of driving.
Anyway...sorry for going off on a tangent...
Edit...I am losing my ability to type...
So here's that C&D comparo, and the Top Gear video:
Top Gear is awesome
*cough*It's a*cough*Pontiac*cough*
Actually it's a Holden, but who's checking.
if you have speed3-related questions, i've found the people at http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php to be pretty helpful about random stuff
@ "BMW 135i vs. 3 Series" - yes, for more, I could get a 3 series. But that's more. I would rather have a fully optioned BMW (and I realize that goes past my $35k line, but I can rationalize it) than a semi-optioned 3 series. Plus, the engine in the 1 series is the same as the 3 series, and the 1 series is lighter.
@ "G8" - sorry, I sat in one at the auto show and was discouraged by how cheap the interior looked.
@ "Mini Cooper S" - love it, but it is WAY too small. I've gotta be able to get a 45lb Husky in the back seat and the only way to do that is folding down the rear. Bouncy folded seats + dog = bad joojoo
Honestly, the 135i would be awesome in manual; I could opt for the DSG, but then - fully optioned - it really does break the bank. My spec for whichever car I go with is going to stop at transmission (manual).
Now, if the R32 comes in under 35k and I can afford the DSG, I may consider it at that point. I have hp/tq figures in graph form for each car. Interesting curve comparisons...
(at work, cannot post now)
Really though, you should test drive as many as you can. There's a lot about a car that doesn't come through on paper. You can look at quarter-mile times, skidpad numbers, and power curves until your eyes fall out and it won't do anything to inform you about how much you'll like driving it.
Have you checked out the Mini Cooper Clubman S? As a 6'1" 200lb guy, I was able to sit comfortably in the back seat.
Does it need to be brand new? If not I'd also recommend looking into an 07 Volvo S60R. You should be able to find with low miles for under your price limit.
The Mazda RX-8 is pretty nice as well, but you wouldn't be able to fit a husky in the back seat. Its not a super performer on paper, but I'd say it's one of the best balanced cars in its segment.
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Getting one in and out of a 2-door could be problematic though, especially a big dog.
Laying in a Cherokee is possible. Laying down in the backseat of a 1 series is completely different. I drive a coupe with tiny backseats and my dog isn't small enough to lay back there so he rides shotgun. Sadly my seats are cloth and he has taken his toll. Those are cloth seats though so I care less. If they were nice leather it would kill me every time I have to take him with me.
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@ "Cadillac CTS" I would only consider the V, and even then, it's a Cadillac. I can't help but snub my nose at Cadillacs, Buicks, Saabs, and Oldsmobiles (even though Olds are out of the picture lol)
@ "Clubman" Thanks, but no thanks. I want something "clean" and "aggressive" and "Clubman" isn't exactly aggressive. God, the engine though, eh?
@ "RX-8" Not a lot of utility, although if I were considering it as a fun car, it would go up against the S2000, MX-5, and Solstice for consideration. Rotaries have a special place in my heart
Let's get crazy. I'll throw the STI into the consideration pool; mainly HP and acceleration figures. The STI looks mean, but not clean, that's mainly why it's a reluctant contender. I'm a big fan of sleepers and the STI just doesn't fit. I would, however, be happy with one.
Current order of preference:
1) BMW 135i
2) VW R32
3) Subaru WRX STI
4) Mazdaspeed 3
The Mazdaspeed hangs on due to the low entry price and the potential for immediate modification with the cheaper price.
I used to drive a Subaru Impreza back before the WRX came to the states. I found the interior appointments damn near unacceptable, even for a 20k car. They haven't done much to upgrade it now that it's a 30k car.
What's wrong with driving a car that has miles that you didn't put on it? It's always a partial risk buying a used car but M3 vs. 1 series isn't even a fair comparison to me.
You buy an M3 to thrash it mate. I wouldn't want to buy a car knowing it had been thrashed by someone other than me. Unless you have detailed records (on a properly taken care of M3 you honestly should) you've no idea what that car has been through. And 5 years even for an M3 is pushing it. In terms of german cars I really don't think anyone should spend the money unless they can afford a really nice car + maintenance package. For the same amount of money you spend on the cheapest BMW you can get so much more car from a different make. And it would still be a fantastic car.
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