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Viva la [Girl Thread]
Dondums
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Quite a bit of backstory to this one. There is, unsurprisingly, this girl - I've worked with her for roughly two years at this point, and we have been friends for almost all of it. About one year ago, she asked me if I wanted to try a relationship. At the time, I was still rather emotionally dull from some bad breakups in the previous years, and .. well, I'm not really sure why else I said no but I told her I did not know right now, and that was that. Unfortunately, a few weeks later a different girl from work sat me down in Applebee's and essentially talked me into going out with her, at least on a trial basis - and a trial it was; as 2 weeks later I broke it off. Now, the original girl who asked me out had stopped talking to me, but I did apologize shortly thereafter and we resumed being really close friends. We remained as such for the next half year or so.
Well, as this year goes on and we become closer friends, I find that I am falling for her quite a lot. Ironically, right about the time I was actually planning on making a move, one of my close friends began talking to her. This 'close friend' and I had some issues ~3 years ago in high school (involving him and my girlfriend-at-the-time - on two separate occasions), but those may or may not be relevant to the story. This is where my long line of errors in judgment reach their peak - she asked me if he was a good guy, and - as I was just starting to trust him myself (I'm a bit too forgiving), told her yes. Fast forward a week or two, they begin dating. Her and I do not talk as much for a while, but she continues to want to be really close friends as she often begins telling me all of their problems (they dated for a total of 4 months, with problems beginning shortly after the first). Well, he breaks up with her and begins bumping uglies with one of the girls he's worked with for several years. She is obviously quite upset, and I, still being one of her closest friends ("[her] best"), keep trying to make her feel better and whatnot. At this point I am feeling quite turd-like, because (a) if I -had- dated her when she originally asked me out, this would not have happened and (b) I gave her the thumbs-up on him, so her getting hurt was inadvertently my fault.
Well, about 3 weeks after their breakup, rumors begin surfacing around our workplace that I like her, including one of her close girl friends telling me that I should. She comes over while my parents are out of town, and SHE has the idea of staying there and getting drunk together. I, of course, agree. Fun times ensue. Nothing major, though pants were removed at one point and we slept in a bed spooning. So, a few nights later, I tell her how I feel. She says that she wants to focus on being happy for herself - which I can understand, she's had 3 major relationships and they've all ended quite badly, and (also) she is still quite hung up on her recent ex. She says everything that happened the earlier night she wishes had not happened and was "leading me on." Bummer. Says she still wants to be friends, though.
And close friends we remain - we still hang out all the time, she's going with me to a wedding and fireworks later this month, etc. We talk all the time, and it's essentially the same except now I make humorous references to how we should date and whatnot. She laughs at them, in case anyone thinks they'd just be awkward. Last night, however, it comes up on a serious note and she says we can't date - she lists how she recently broke up with one of my friends as a reason, and then (perhaps jokingly) says that she thinks if she liked me I would not like her. I take this as she thinks I just enjoy the chase, and it upsets me - as how our friendship works, I tell her this upsets me and that I really do like her and wish she wouldn't write it off like that. Then we joke around some more and then get off the phone. While I originally feared things might take a turn for the awkward, she calls me this afternoon and we chat it up just like normal.
So, now, I present H/A with this gigantic wall of text, and ask for thoughts, opinions, advice, anything. I am 20 and she is 19, for the age-curious. Given a lot can happen in two years, I likely left out many details. If anyone cares enough to need clarification on anything, feel free to inquire. Thanks in advance, this is really wrecking my brain.
Well, as this year goes on and we become closer friends, I find that I am falling for her quite a lot. Ironically, right about the time I was actually planning on making a move, one of my close friends began talking to her. This 'close friend' and I had some issues ~3 years ago in high school (involving him and my girlfriend-at-the-time - on two separate occasions), but those may or may not be relevant to the story. This is where my long line of errors in judgment reach their peak - she asked me if he was a good guy, and - as I was just starting to trust him myself (I'm a bit too forgiving), told her yes. Fast forward a week or two, they begin dating. Her and I do not talk as much for a while, but she continues to want to be really close friends as she often begins telling me all of their problems (they dated for a total of 4 months, with problems beginning shortly after the first). Well, he breaks up with her and begins bumping uglies with one of the girls he's worked with for several years. She is obviously quite upset, and I, still being one of her closest friends ("[her] best"), keep trying to make her feel better and whatnot. At this point I am feeling quite turd-like, because (a) if I -had- dated her when she originally asked me out, this would not have happened and (b) I gave her the thumbs-up on him, so her getting hurt was inadvertently my fault.
Well, about 3 weeks after their breakup, rumors begin surfacing around our workplace that I like her, including one of her close girl friends telling me that I should. She comes over while my parents are out of town, and SHE has the idea of staying there and getting drunk together. I, of course, agree. Fun times ensue. Nothing major, though pants were removed at one point and we slept in a bed spooning. So, a few nights later, I tell her how I feel. She says that she wants to focus on being happy for herself - which I can understand, she's had 3 major relationships and they've all ended quite badly, and (also) she is still quite hung up on her recent ex. She says everything that happened the earlier night she wishes had not happened and was "leading me on." Bummer. Says she still wants to be friends, though.
And close friends we remain - we still hang out all the time, she's going with me to a wedding and fireworks later this month, etc. We talk all the time, and it's essentially the same except now I make humorous references to how we should date and whatnot. She laughs at them, in case anyone thinks they'd just be awkward. Last night, however, it comes up on a serious note and she says we can't date - she lists how she recently broke up with one of my friends as a reason, and then (perhaps jokingly) says that she thinks if she liked me I would not like her. I take this as she thinks I just enjoy the chase, and it upsets me - as how our friendship works, I tell her this upsets me and that I really do like her and wish she wouldn't write it off like that. Then we joke around some more and then get off the phone. While I originally feared things might take a turn for the awkward, she calls me this afternoon and we chat it up just like normal.
So, now, I present H/A with this gigantic wall of text, and ask for thoughts, opinions, advice, anything. I am 20 and she is 19, for the age-curious. Given a lot can happen in two years, I likely left out many details. If anyone cares enough to need clarification on anything, feel free to inquire. Thanks in advance, this is really wrecking my brain.
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No it's not. She decides who she goes out with.
Give it some time. Keep being friends and see where it goes. I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket though, make sure you're still getting out there and meeting other girls. Don't wait around.
(a) You did what you felt was best for the both of you (or at least, you) at the time.
(b) He betrayed you as well as her, you thought he was a good guy and he turned out not to be.
Don't blame yourself for these things, you did what you thought was best at the time on limited information. Now that you know more you feel stupid for doing the "wrong" thing, but there's not really a rational reason to feel this way. Don't beat yourself up over this.
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Now on the limited information here I can't shake the feeling that the girl really likes being with you, but does not like tieing herself to you at this point in time. I can only imagine how annoying this must be to you: you love her dearly and want to share a lot with her, she probably loves you dearly, but does not want to share so much with another person for some time.
I think you have to decide for yourself if it is healthy for you to stay in this twisted zone between "best friend" and "lover" or that you decide to move yourself away from this and start seeing other girls and sometimes say no to this girl when she wants to do lover-ish things with you.
Just remember that you're both still young and you've got a whole life in front of you.
I ask because my main advice would be to stop seeing/talking to her, at least for a while. She doesn't want a relationship, she made that pretty much clear, and if you continue to see her, your own feelings for her probably won't go away.
So you cut ties with her. Either she'll realize that she does indeed like you and wants to start a relationship, or you find someone else, and then can go back with being friends with the chick.
No. I ardently disagree. A lot of time that advice is given and it is 100% the right thing. In this case though, I think it is exactly the wrong thing to do. Taking time apart is for when a guy likes a girl, and she doesn't like him back. It is so the guy can get some perspective on the girl and stop believing that she is the only girl in the world for him. That is most definitely not the case here. OP seems to have a healthy distance, it is most definitely the girl pursuing in this case. Perhaps the OP can fill us in. How much in recent memory, (say, since her breakup), has it been her pursuing you? Would you say from an objective viewpoint that she's been more into you than you've been into her?
This girl likes you, OP. What I bolded is the only shit that matters.
She advanced on you once before and got rejected.
She and her friends think you would be good for one another.
She practically throws herself at you.
She gets physically and emotionally intimate with you. No sex, but naked spooning shows physical trust.
She advanced on you again and got rejected.
She still wants to do 'couples' things with you and be around you.
BASICALLY, she wants you, but is vulnerable from recent breakups and is afraid of losing you.
I'll put it to you this way. A girl goes over to a guy's house (whom she likes) to be completely uninterrupted with a bottle of alcohol, gets naked, and then spends the night. Is there any doubt in your mind that she wanted him? That night, when you didn't follow up, it was a rejection to her. Just the same as when she asked you out before and you denied her. So to respond she says that what she did was a mistake, and when brought up lets you know that she is still seeking your validation. Her saying it was a mistake is a defense mechanism, just like when a guy asks a girl out then tries to play it off as a joke.
IMO, I believe that she is afraid of getting rejected again for a 3rd time without you showing her some interest. I don't mean joking around and pulling her heartstrings by suggesting maybe you can have a relationship. This may seem like a strange concept, but after a few failed relationships, she is the one who doesn't know if she deserves a good relationship. She feels she is worth less than you, and that you are the one who doesn't want the relationship. It is up to you to let her know that you both want the relationship, and it isn't just her. You need to let her know that you think she deserves to be in a relationship with you.
This is assuming that you actually want her as a lover. If you want to keep the same relationship you've been having, you should just keep doing the same things you've been doing.
She would've been more distant if she didn't want you.
Well, the day after they broke up (she had called me the night of, as well), she resumed her old habit of, uhm, smacking my ass and kept wanting to hang out - and purposely calling them dates. Things continued like this up until these most revent events, and even then they very well may continue; I just haven't worked with her since.
This. I'm not quite sure how to do this, as I did try to convey this to her (or at least tell her how I felt) once (or twice, depending on how you interpret the last paragraph). And, of course, I do tell her that I think she is amazing and stuff - she usually says I'm just saying it to make her feel better. I'm not, for the record, heh. Thanks again.
Being dense or completely over-looking the obvious is not male specific. Sometimes, you really do just need to spell it out. Telling her that she's amazing just may not be quite direct enough for her; you may actually need to outright tell her how you feel.
Comparison:
1. Its rumours. Friends of friends pressing. Like most friends, if you like some girl, they will encourage you, regardless of what your chances are. If something real had a chance of happening, it would already be happening by now.
2. She wants to get drunk, doesn't want to start anything with a boy at the moment, and so picks buddy to be drunk with because he is non-threatening, and safe as a friend. She can go get drunk and
3. have her pants off and still be assured nothing is really going to happen. The OP is being treated like unto a Ken doll here. He is given this trust, because he is a zero threat, no matter the situation.
4. She blows him off after he tries to come forward with his feelings. She is not interested in him in that way, not even a little. The 'I'm trying to be happy for myself' line is close cousin to the 'I'm not in a place for a relationship right now' line, and that is something you feed people you don't want to hurt, but who have no chance with you. You will find they are suddenly in 'the right place for a relationship' when someone they are actually attracted to shows up, but for now
5. Lets still be friends.
6. Really? The OP says, because he really likes her, says so, and gets blown off again. He almost makes a big deal of it, and some of this is cool, because there is obviously some caring going on- but there will never, ever be sexytime.. Ever. He is pretty much her gay best friend right now.
7. But she knows not dating her upsets him, so she draws it back into simple friends territory. Redrawing those zone lines, giving him hints about the real nature of the relationship.
If he pushes, the discomfort is going to be too much, and she could very well bail out completely. Take the warning shots as exactly that, and don't press the issue any further. She knows how you feel - you haven't been unclear, she's just protecting you from the harshness of an out and out rejection.
Seriously, OP. Catch the hint before it blows up in your face.
She likes you but she doesn't trust that you like her, and she's probably pretty scared of having another shitty breakup.
At some point you have to truly put your cards on the table, not just jokingly, but seriously. Get sincere and tell her that you really do want a serious relationship, because you like her a lot and you've liked her a lot for awhile now.
Edit: I'll give this a bit more detail.
You're a 19-year old girl. You've had 3 (4?) major relationships end disastrously, reconfirming your secret belief that men are all assholes. Some of these relationships were with friends of your best friend, with whom you have a fun, healthy, loving relationship. He has seen you through these tough times, even now as you are hung up on your last relationship. Do you pursue a romantic relationship with him, given that his friendship has been so incredibly important to you, that your recent attempts at romantic relationships have all ended badly, and that you're still 19, making this a rather tumultuous time even in the best of circumstances?
Look, this is a [Girl Thread], but I really have to ask, how badly do you want to pursue a romantic relationship with her? Contrary to what one may see in romantic comedies, males and females can be best platonic friends*, and also attempts to change such a relationship into a romantic one can fail and would most likely end up in a breaking of that friendship. It's not always true that she's secretly in love with you and if only you would take the plunge you could convince her of it. She has made her intentions clear, so I'd say that for you to disbelieve her and substitute your judgement for hers should demand a pretty strong dose of conviction on your part. Maybe Zerg is right, I wouldn't know, but it is turning her "No" into a "Yes".
I don't know the kind of person you are. You did express guilt that you approved of her dating your friend-who-turned-out-to-suck. But you also expressed regret that you didn't preemptively start dating her before she dated your friend-who-turned-out-to-suck. Still, just as a suggestion that you should consider, but not necessarily follow: Maybe just suck it up and be her friend.
* Apologies if you're not male. Just an assumption.
I know it sounds irrational and she just shouldn't feel that way, but as someone that has felt that way myself, I can practically guarantee that she also thinks it sounds irrational and she just shouldn't feel that way but does just the same.
If I were you, I would cut back on "joking" about how you should be dating, because you both know it's not joking and those sorts of comments just create more pressure and tension where you don't need it. She knows how you feel, you know how she feels, just let her have some time to sort herself out and keep being there for her.
Eventually it might reach a point where you feel you HAVE to have a definite now-or-never answer, but iI don't think that time is now.
/2cents