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Bait & Switch, or just business? Gasoline and Credit Cards
Henroid
Mexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
Mexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
Something was just brought to my attention this morning that, frankly, has me slightly worried.
Floating around in the news are reports that gas stations around the nation are charging people who use credit cards for gasoline more than the price advertised up on the big board.
According to this report, as long as it is clearly stated on the big sign that the advertised price is for cash and there's additional signs at the pumps about the higher price for credit cards, nobody is at fault here.
What has me concerned though is the following things:
- How much extra, exactly, is considered 'fair' for the extra charges?
- Where exactly do debit cards call into this? I know that there's few times where people are clear about credit vs debit.
The ABC article above notes the process of card companies charging the stations some percent more, which is why the stations are passing it on to us (potentially). Not to mention that when people start going inside to pay cash for the gas they're probably going to pick up that pack of Ho-Ho's that catches their eye.
I haven't noticed any changes or additional signs at the pump over the last couple of weeks when going in to refuel, and I always use my debit card (hence my worrying). There's a lot of potential for jacking over customers though, don't you think?
Floating around in the news are reports that gas stations around the nation are charging people who use credit cards for gasoline more than the price advertised up on the big board.
According to this report, as long as it is clearly stated on the big sign that the advertised price is for cash and there's additional signs at the pumps about the higher price for credit cards, nobody is at fault here.
What has me concerned though is the following things:
- How much extra, exactly, is considered 'fair' for the extra charges?
- Where exactly do debit cards call into this? I know that there's few times where people are clear about credit vs debit.
The ABC article above notes the process of card companies charging the stations some percent more, which is why the stations are passing it on to us (potentially). Not to mention that when people start going inside to pay cash for the gas they're probably going to pick up that pack of Ho-Ho's that catches their eye.
I haven't noticed any changes or additional signs at the pump over the last couple of weeks when going in to refuel, and I always use my debit card (hence my worrying). There's a lot of potential for jacking over customers though, don't you think?
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On the other hand, like you say, it does open up an avenue for potential abuse, but I'm not sure how we'd create proper oversight to ensure consumers aren't getting boned.
so instead of 3.91 its 4.01... i just go to the gas station that doesnt do this and charges 3.93 instead.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
As long as the price difference is shown before you pay, there's nothing wrong going on here.
Not that that thing is particularly well-enforced, as anyone who has ever gone into a store with "Minimum credit card charge: $10" knows.
So, if I get this right, as long as the price mentioned is the price before cash is given, then it's okay?
How about advertising a price and then saying "hey, no, that's a cash discount, you don't get that!"? That seems like it would actually be violation of the merchant agreement, whereas the others are not, but are still somewhat dubious.
I usually pay the extra $0.05 for the station that doesn't do this, as this is a particularly sleazy practice and should be fined to the greatest extent you can.
The distinctions are weird and it's not particularly well-enforced, like I said. Although who knows; Visa might start making examples of some stations at some point.
That would be nice of them to do, and I'm sure with enough customer lash-outs, they would. However, advertising a price that's not explicitly advertised as "cash-only" is false-advertising, isn't it? I know there are stations that show a price, but that is the credit-price, and they have a smaller sign underneath for cash-only price, or a "price after a car wash" sort of deal.
I've never really seen one that was cash, without outright saying it was cash.
its underhanded to not put the different prices for regular (at least) on the big sign.
I always read it, but a 50 cent difference is hardly ever advertised. Likely, they're the stations that don't put anything on the advertised price.
It's not like they have an EULA you have to sign before you pump your gas. Most don't even change the price displayed when you dispense and actually charge you something different conspicuously.
You mean a flat transaction fee, though, right? Not "10c more per gallon of electronics cleaner".
This is why many government agencies won't allow payment by credit card, but will accept ACH payments. I was almost late on a tuition payment once because I assumed I could pay by credit card, since it was an online payment.
</snark>
None of the stations near me do this, thankfully. I'm used to a pretty debit card based lifestyle.
It's only been in the past 15 years or so that it has become common to NOT do it. Now, to most of you, that's probably ancient history, but still. :P
It's pre me having a debit card and actually needing to use it, yeah (and I'm almost 30!)
It shocked me a bit when I got chided for charging Everything by someone who told me all about evil fees that don't exist in any stores I go to.
I mean "The prices displayed are when paying with cash. Add 2% when paying with credit card" or something similar.
Yeah, Visa would fine you for that; you have to phrase it as "The prices displayed are when paying credit card; subtract 2% when paying cash".
Not that they typically give a shit about enforcing for small locally-owned places, as I've said.
They get 2-5% of everything.
Everything processed. Then they get 6-?% vig on everyone that carries a balance.
My bookie is cheaper than my credit card.
I host a podcast about movies.
Yep, they're pretty much evil.
They justify all these charges by crying about how much it costs them to protect you from fraud. But as soon as somebody puts through an actual fraudulent charge they back-charge the merchant and then hide behind their merchant services agreement that says that fraud prevention is the responsibility of the merchant, not the bank.
Anyway, in California it's actually illegal to charge somebody a surcharge for paying with a credit card. The law doesn't specifically say anything but "cash discounts" but I've heard a couple of lawyers say that cash discounts are clearly against state law, too, just that nobody's bothered to challenge them in court.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
they arent against the law unless they can prove that normally they would have sold the item at a lower level. even if they could the money involved in such a court case would cost more than its worth
If you think the merchant End is bad, you should try it from the application and service provider side. PCI certification is a BITCH. Not only do you have to keep up with a constantly changing specification document, you have to pay an external entity to come in and make sure that the RFC that you've submitted actually matches what you've done and then visa MIGHT approve you. Then there are all kinds of policies you have to have in place that deal with who has access to what data, who changes what encryption keys when, how often security scans are taken and with what software is used and even how much data you can actually store (IE no cardholder data stored is prefered. which makes it somewhat difficult to debug problems.) This is a bit of a touchy subject for me as it's taken up approximately 75% of my time at work for the last 3 years.
That said, Gas stations get the worst rates out of any merchants. They're generally 1.5-2x higher than a regular retail merchant and don't get me started on the interchange fees. I don't like that some stations have different prices, but I completely understand their reasoning for it.
Let's say you sell gizmos for $100 per. You happily take $100 per, but people start bringing these cards in and saying "these guys will pay you the $100." So you pay the registration fees to setup a merchant account with the guys giving out the cards and you get the equipment necessary to process payments with the card. At the end of the month, for every unit you sold to cardholders you're getting $97, and for maybe 2-3% of them you get 0. Those 2% have contested the charge, and the card issuer tells you "hey these guys said they didn't buy your gizmos". So you contest the contested charges (costing you maybe 3$ per contested charge), sometimes you net $94.50 per contested charge, sometimes you net owing $3-6 per contested charge.
As a merchant, I like cash better (debit and checks are cash equivalents, and you get fewer buyer protections). I advertise my prices in cash, this should be implicit. It's not my fault your addiction to revolving credit means you have no cash to pay me with. If you want me to accept your card, you pay more.
Advertised prices ASSUME payment in CASH (those notes that may or may not be in your pocket attesting "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private"). Your card doesn't say that. Just consider if you went to the hot dog cart advertising $2/dog, has the merchant done something wrong if they don't accept credit? Because if you don't pay, you've just commited theft.
It ain't my problem you can't hold onto your cash, nor is it my problem that your consumption exceeds the cash levels (you feel comfortable carrying) needed to pay for those goods/services. I agree that cardholders get many benefits, and that's why they shouldn't shit bricks when they are assessed a marginal fee over forms of payment less risky to the merchant.
All I was saying is that is the vendor advertises $4.09/Gal, he's advertising "gimme 4 dollars and change for every gallon". You walk in and expect not to give me $$$ for what you took then you're the one making stupid assumptions.
I'd agree that hanging an MC/VISA logo on the door (or on the gas sign) does telegraph that credit is an acceptable form of payment (at advertised rates). Within the constraints of your example (credit processors advertised clearly) we don't disagree. If I advertise acceptance of credit I'd have to honor advertised prices. I also think if I do not advertise acceptance of credit processors, then I'm free to charge you more if I elect to take it as form of payment (which I'm pretty sure is fine w/r/to a merchant agreement w/a credit processor).
WTF is this nonsense, if you want to have a discussion with yourself by all means, include me out. Go flip your own fucking burgers. I never said they were the devil, just bitches for whining when getting charged more than people paying with cash. I can't make my mortgage payment with a bunch of slips of paper of cardholders agreeing to pay their card issuers as per the T&C of their card agreement.
No, if you have that Visa decal on your shop's door or window, the contract you signed with Visa states that advertised prices are assumed to be the same for both cash and credit card unless stated explicitly otherwise, with a fairly long list of how you may and may not do so. If I went to a hot dog cart that had a big Visa sticker on the front and they didn't accept credit, I'd be a bit upset. If I went into your store and didn't find out until I got to the register that my bill was higher than advertised, I'd probably be so pissed I'd call Visa's corporate number and report you.
What the fuck did you think those stickers were for?
I'm having a hard time seeing where the problem is, raise your prices to cover the merchant fees on all items. And when someone doesn't pay in credit, drop the % that correlates to that merchant fee, and viola, problem solved. As long as your advertised price is the default price assumed and you're not being the giganormus dick-hole and charging 50 cents more a gallon if the merchant fees are really only 5-10 cents a gallon, then there's no problem at all.
And that's perfectly allowable.
What's not allowed, however, is to have a set of advertized prices, have the customer pick up items at those prices, get to the register, pull out a credit card, and only then get informed that he'll actually be paying more money.
It's at that point I'd probably call Visa, and then go "Okay, I'll take my business elsewhere" and leave everything at the register. Of course, if the customer appreciation thread has taught me anything, it's that I would've either gotten a free gift card encompassing my purchase, or a discount to cover it, depending on how vocal I was.
Ninja Edit:
I'm sure the fines you'd get from Visa from doing stupid shit like that are totally probably going to completely overshadow all those pain-in-the-ass purchases that get charged back by a magnitude of thousands. Not to mention all the customers you wouldn't have had because you didn't carry Visa, I'm sure it's small, but probably a substantial amount, not many people use Visa for a $2 purchase.
Guys, without derailing the thread, really, what were the fees you pay on a withdrawal in the US if the ATM is not operated by your bank? Wasn't it more like 1.50$ or is the 5$ for real?