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Bows are a stat stick for rogues every bit as much as thunderfury is for hunters. They don't use these things to their fullest potential.
Thunderfury wasn't even a "stat stick" for Hunters, it gives +5 agility, that is the only benefit. The 20% melee haste debuff was huge for progression when thunderclap was only 10%, hell it's the whole reason they changed imp thunderclap to debuff to 20% in BC. This is getting really, really dumb.
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
We're getting bogged down in pedantics. Yes, giving a Hunter Thunderfury is stupid, just as giving a rogue Thor'idal is stupid. That's my point. Justifying it with 'attendance' or 'length of time in guild' or 'he's a super guy with an ivory smile and an eight inch cock' is dumb.
Personally I still see the guild leader as a jackass for doing such a thing, handing off a bow that two of your raid members could use to your best bud. Two months is a decent amount of time to prove ones worth, though really I think these chuckleheads did it specifically to stir shit up. Blizzard should have placed a Class: Hunter requirement on that damn bow while Sunwell was still on the PTR, instead they retardedly said something akin to 'No one will ever give it to anyone but a hunter!'. Even if they are at Kil'jaden, have 'beaten' WoW etc etc, that bow is more then just better damage and DPS for a hunter, it fundamentally changes how they'll deal with the game. I can imagine people will keep those bows for a long, long time even at 80, you'd be surprised just how much finally having another bag slot and not needing to pay for arrows can be.
It is true that the hunters who got a hold of past legendaries instead of a melee class were tards, but this rogue who has the bow is no less of a tard really.
Not to pick nits, but my point was that the Thunderfury wasn't even a very good stat stick, whereas the legendary bow is the best item for the slot for Rogues.
They're both stat sticks, but one is a shitty stat stick, and the other is the best thing said rogue could have in the slot.
Doesn't change the fact that it's a "hunter item", but that's where the attendance/contribution stuff comes in.
What's done is done, I'm curious as to how the two hunters reacted, and if they knew this would be the case ahead of time, or if it was sprung upon them.
If our raid group picked up a new hunter right now and he was the only hunter available for the bow, I'd probably vote to hand it right over to the top rogue.
Trial players are trial players. I wouldn't give anyone a legendary until they've proven a high level of commitment, skill and availability.
Personally I still see the guild leader as a jackass for doing such a thing, handing off a bow that two of your raid members could use to your best bud. Two months is a decent amount of time to prove ones worth, though really I think these chuckleheads did it specifically to stir shit up. Blizzard should have placed a Class: Hunter requirement on that damn bow while Sunwell was still on the PTR, instead they retardedly said something akin to 'No one will ever give it to anyone but a hunter!'. Even if they are at Kil'jaden, have 'beaten' WoW etc etc, that bow is more then just better damage and DPS for a hunter, it fundamentally changes how they'll deal with the game. I can imagine people will keep those bows for a long, long time even at 80, you'd be surprised just how much finally having another bag slot and not needing to pay for arrows can be.
It is true that the hunters who got a hold of past legendaries instead of a melee class were tards, but this rogue who has the bow is no less of a tard really.
It can take over a month to gear someone up to be Sunwell viable. Two months is really a short amount of time to be in a guild and expect a legendary drop. Especially since these guys have been working and wiping on this content since March? 6 months?
If those hunters didn't earn their way through the content with the guild, they probably don't deserve it. Plus, it's not like that bow going to a rogue is going to slow down their progression. They're done with the game until WotlK. Give the gear to the people who have earned it, imo.
I remember giving an Ashkandi to a hunter over an arms warrior.
The warrior was really pissed. The warrior gquit. We decided that was for the best.
Here's the funny thing: that sword dropped like candy (ass candy?) for us. It's possible the warrior might have gotten it earlier if he had better attendance (meaning, showed up when it dropped earlier...or at least, he would have had enough dkp), and certainly would have gotten it in later kills.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
Two god damn months and they were still considered trial members? I greatly doubt that.
I've seen it said that they were on the server for 2 months.
Do we have any indication of how long actually in guild? Any dkp site showing how many actual raids they were called up for?
Edit; one of the funniest misappropriations I ever saw was a hunter getting a CTS over the rogues in the raid. Of note; it's not like attendance was a factor, they'd all been in the guild for ages, they just /rolled, and the hunter rolled the highest.
It was hillarious and sad at the same time.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
My biggest gripe with it is, as I said it isn't a mere stat/damage increase. I mean it isn't like equipping the Warglaives gives warriors full rage all the time, or make it where a rogue has constant adrenaline rush going. That is why it seems so unfair to me, even if the stats might be 'best' in slot for a rogue, it's the on equip effects that are the greatest boon to the proper class.
I remember giving an Ashkandi to a hunter over an arms warrior.
The warrior was really pissed. The warrior gquit. We decided that was for the best.
Here's the funny thing: that sword dropped like candy (ass candy?) for us. The warrior might have gotten it earlier if he had better attendance (meaning, showed up when it dropped earlier), and certainly would have gotten it in later kills.
I remember a certain hunter I ran with in that train wreck of a guild that had almost every weapon that droped in MC, BWL, Aq40 and was given first choice on everything because they made him an officer
It's because of the pure greed of this one and the semi greed of other others is why I dislike people who play hunters in general
I was beyond happy to replace the cape of the black baron within two hours of TBC on my rogue and to get rid of the tanking bow {the one that drops off the raptor boss in ZG} I was forced to use in slave pens
Hey guys, remember when Hunters weren't allowed to roll on any melee weapons because "olol Lohk'Delar is a quest reward therefor it is best"? That was so awesome. If we had a hunter in our guild for 2 months, and he'd made every raid, and was obviously a good player, none of our rogues would even consider taking that weapon from him. But each guild does their own things their own way, I guess. I certainly can't agree with that decision.
"On a side note, I don’t wish this to reflect negatively on either Tums or Zzerg, they are both very talented hunters and I enjoy raiding with them very much. They brought a ton skill and dedication to this guild and have made us stronger and helped turn us into what we are today."
Pretty glowing review of the two hunters, as well.
If we had a hunter in our guild for 2 months, and he'd made every raid, and was obviously a good player, none of our rogues would even consider taking that weapon from him. But each guild does their own things their own way, I guess. I certainly can't agree with that decision.
I'm supposing that's the guild leader. He doesn't want giving a rogue a weapon that is pretty much tailor coded/fitted/etc for a hunter over the two, not one, but two that did not have it that were there for the drop to reflect poorly upon them? And they apparently are good hunters?
Hell, my crew made it back to the Twins last night, so we could easily end up in the same position, based on having 3 very long term hunters all drop to Member status or dramatically reduce their raiding, and having to pick up a pair of others to fill in. Compared to the rogues, 1 of whom is the longest term raider in the guild, one who has been in just as long and is in the top 10 or so, and me, who has been in for nearly a year.
As an officer I'd still probably push for one of the hunters to get it, as it's not a perfect parallel, but I'm not blind to the train of thought that could lead to such a choice, and without having all sides of the story, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt here.
These aren't some random asshats giving the Prince's dagger to a rogue, this is clearly a calculated choice by a crew that is very good at what they do. While we may disagree with it from afar, unless the guild implodes in the next few weeks, it seems that it's likely an internally consistant choice.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
For what it's worth, in my guild (before the Implosion of '08), Hunters had priority on ranged weapons (other than thrown), unless they had really bad attendance, or it was their first week raiding with us. Rogues/DPS Warriors had Priority on 1h Weapons, and 2h weapons usually went to the ret pallies, or went up for grabs to anyone. (We didn't have a Blood Frenzy warrior at the time.)
"On a side note, I don’t wish this to reflect negatively on either Tums or Zzerg, they are both very talented hunters and I enjoy raiding with them very much. They brought a ton skill and dedication to this guild and have made us stronger and helped turn us into what we are today."
"But fuck them, joebob the rogue has been here longer and is a swell guy".
So, tangent. I wonder this. Why is it that if a raider has only been with your guild for 2 months you consider them not to have "paid their dues" or some such thing? Now, I can see it if they were powerleveled or came in in Kara junk or something. But, if a raider geared himself up in his previous guild, farmed his mats, ground his arena points, wiped his ... well, wiped, etc. on all the previous content, didn't he go through all the same stuff you did? Is he not as deserving because he did it with a different guild?
I could actually see it being the opposite. New raiders give up a lot to switch guilds. They don't know if they're going to get raid spots, they don't know if they'll like the people, they almost certainly alienate their old guild and some friends. If anything, new members that you needed to beat content are doing you a favor by coming on.
Or do we just assume that they're ninja-ing, server transfering, name changing douches?
cncaudata on
PSN: Broodax- battle.net: broodax#1163
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
The only transfered to the server to kill KJ. So what if they farmed everything before that, it wasn't of any benefit to the guild. The rogue has been there since the start and was there for the guild's entire progression. Being the class that the weapon is of most benefit for does not make you more deserving of the legendary then the person who has been with the guild since the start.
Tav on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
I don't think there's anything really wrong with giving that bow to a rogue. I just find it interesting that hunters have been carrying a bad rep for years for rolling on melee items (Fuck, I got heat from random people for walking around with a couple swords back in the day that were typically found on rogues, but bumped my agility by a fuckton) and now a lot of the same people are justifying this.
I mean, really, if it's okay for a rogue to have that bow over a couple hunters (And two months is plenty of time to decide if you want to keep a raid member or not) than there is no good reason why a hunter can't roll on whatever melee item with attack power, crit rating or agility they want.
PS. I had to swallow a warlock winning the only Midnight drop I've ever seen.
Nova_C on
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darklite_xI'm not an r-tard...Registered Userregular
The only transfered to the server to kill KJ. So what if they farmed everything before that, it wasn't of any benefit to the guild. The rogue has been there since the start and was there for the guild's entire progression. Being the class that the weapon is of most benefit for does not make you more deserving of the legendary then the person who has been with the guild since the start.
I disagree. I think it was selfish of the rogue to accept a legendary ranged weapon over a class who's mechanics are based on ranged attacks. I can't say I would have argued if I was in the same position and the bow was defaulted to me, but if it came down to it I would feel like a piece of shit if I as a rogue took a legendary bow from a hunter. Obviously, as Forar pointed out, we don't know all the facts such as how long they were actually in the guild and how much they contributed, but just from the small amount of info I have I think it was a poor decision.
darklite_x on
Steam ID: darklite_x Xbox Gamertag: Darklite 37 PSN:Rage_Kage_37 Battle.Net:darklite#2197
Again; we've seen that they've been on the server for 2 months. Do we have ANY idea how long they've actually been guilded? How many actual raids they've been on board for? Are they "2 months; raided twice", or "2 months: raided 5 times a week for 8 weeks straight".
Generalities are making this a headache.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
The only transfered to the server to kill KJ. So what if they farmed everything before that, it wasn't of any benefit to the guild.
I'm thinking this is patently false. If the guild didn't need them to kill KJ, they wouldn't have taken them. If they did need them, they needed all the gear and skill they brought with.
cncaudata on
PSN: Broodax- battle.net: broodax#1163
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Again; we've seen that they've been on the server for 2 months. Do we have ANY idea how long they've actually been guilded? How many actual raids they've been on board for? Are they "2 months; raided twice", or "2 months: raided 5 times a week for 8 weeks straight".
Generalities are making this a headache.
See Mercy's quote last page. While it doesn't state the length of time they've been in the guild, the GM (or raid leader, whoever) is quoted as saying that they "brought a ton of skill and dedication to the guild and made them stronger and turned them into what they (the guild) are today".
That, to me, says that they contributed quite a bit.
Halfmex on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Again; we've seen that they've been on the server for 2 months. Do we have ANY idea how long they've actually been guilded? How many actual raids they've been on board for? Are they "2 months; raided twice", or "2 months: raided 5 times a week for 8 weeks straight".
Generalities are making this a headache.
Oh, okay. I was following the thread. Clarification:
In the EVENT that these two hunters were raiding steadily for the two months prior to the legendary drop, THEN that is plenty of time to decide if the guild wants to keep 'em and they should have full loot rights.
However, if it was, like, their second raid with the group, then I can understand not giving them a legendary. If I was in the RL position, I probably would have (That Warlock who got Midnight was also on his second raid with us), but that's just me and I don't really have this big hardon for loot.
Other than that goddamn horse. Because my Pally so could have used a demon horse.
Nova_C on
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darklite_xI'm not an r-tard...Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
There's a reason I mentioned your points in my post. I don't think, however, that we blindly need to accept the fact that "maybe" this was their first raid with the guild or whatnot. If we can assume that they haven't been with the guild very long then I think it's also fair to assume they've been with the guild for at least 2 months, which is plenty of time to determine whether or not they're worth gearing.
darklite_x on
Steam ID: darklite_x Xbox Gamertag: Darklite 37 PSN:Rage_Kage_37 Battle.Net:darklite#2197
For the top guilds that have been clearing it for a while, it's about a 3-4 hour encounter. Anyone that they bring into the guild is basically getting a free tour of Sunwell. They're working on 2-3 day raid weeks to fully clear BT and Sunwell.
In that environment, I don't believe a hunter that joins the raid group towards the end of the shit progression cycle which allows them to basically sit in super fun-time farming land automatically earns a legendary bow for being a hunter.
It is best in slot for rogues. If there's a huge disparity between what the hunter and the rogue have put into the guild, it's at least debatable to consider giving the bow to a rogue.
And since not a one of us really know the relationship the hunters/rogue had with the guild besides a generic timeline (Which means jack shit without looking at their contributions during that timeframe), it's a bit hard to really make a call on the situation.
dougly on
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
The only transfered to the server to kill KJ. So what if they farmed everything before that, it wasn't of any benefit to the guild.
I'm thinking this is patently false. If the guild didn't need them to kill KJ, they wouldn't have taken them. If they did need them, they needed all the gear and skill they brought with.
Their gear and skill was really doing the guild a whole lot of good when learning previous fights. When it comes down to it, they were only around for one progression kill and really cannot be expected to be treated the same as someone who was there for the guilds entire raiding career.
The only transfered to the server to kill KJ. So what if they farmed everything before that, it wasn't of any benefit to the guild.
I'm thinking this is patently false. If the guild didn't need them to kill KJ, they wouldn't have taken them. If they did need them, they needed all the gear and skill they brought with.
Not really. A lot of Sunwell farming guilds are looking forward and recruiting for WotlK needs. This includes redesigning raid groups around alt specs (LOL BOOMKINS) and current raiders who will reroll Death Knights.
This means, what, a 4 DPS increase for that rogue? It's best in slot for hunters. Best in slot, in this case, equating to probably more than a 50 DPS upgrade. Best in slot =/= Best in slot. It's not a valid argument, in my opinion. Apples to Shoelaces.
This means, what, a 4 DPS increase for that rogue? It's best in slot for hunters. Best in slot, in this case, equating to probably more than a 50 DPS upgrade. Best in slot =/= Best in slot. It's not a valid argument, in my opinion. Apples to Shoelaces.
DPS should not be an issue if you have KJ on farm.
This means, what, a 4 DPS increase for that rogue? It's best in slot for hunters. Best in slot, in this case, equating to probably more than a 50 DPS upgrade. Best in slot =/= Best in slot. It's not a valid argument, in my opinion. Apples to Shoelaces.
DPS should not be an issue if you have KJ on farm.
Well, then why should the rogue care if he gets it? My point isn't "It's a bigger DPS boost to the raid." My point is, "Best in slot or not, the bow is a much much much much much bigger upgrade for the hunter." Exponentially so.
This means, what, a 4 DPS increase for that rogue? It's best in slot for hunters. Best in slot, in this case, equating to probably more than a 50 DPS upgrade. Best in slot =/= Best in slot. It's not a valid argument, in my opinion. Apples to Shoelaces.
Oh, but it is depending on the difference between the characters. It just depends on whether or not they value the rogue 12.5x more than they value the hunter.
Which I wouldn't overly doubt with a Sunwell raiding group.
This means, what, a 4 DPS increase for that rogue? It's best in slot for hunters. Best in slot, in this case, equating to probably more than a 50 DPS upgrade. Best in slot =/= Best in slot. It's not a valid argument, in my opinion. Apples to Shoelaces.
DPS should not be an issue if you have KJ on farm.
Well, then why should the rogue care if he gets it? My point isn't "It's a bigger DPS boost to the raid." My point is, "Best in slot or not, the bow is a much much much much much bigger upgrade for the hunter." Exponentially so.
And if the upgrade doesn't matter for the guild, why not give it to the guy that has spent hundreds of hours more than the new hunter earning the drops from KJ?
This means, what, a 4 DPS increase for that rogue? It's best in slot for hunters. Best in slot, in this case, equating to probably more than a 50 DPS upgrade. Best in slot =/= Best in slot. It's not a valid argument, in my opinion. Apples to Shoelaces.
Oh, but it is depending on the difference between the characters. It just depends on whether or not they value the rogue 12.5x more than they value the hunter.
Which I wouldn't overly doubt with a Sunwell raiding group.
Erm, what? Hunters outdps rogues in Sunwell.
Edit: Nevermind. Those numbers are horribly skewed by one fight. They're definitely about equal overall, though.
Posts
Thunderfury wasn't even a "stat stick" for Hunters, it gives +5 agility, that is the only benefit. The 20% melee haste debuff was huge for progression when thunderclap was only 10%, hell it's the whole reason they changed imp thunderclap to debuff to 20% in BC. This is getting really, really dumb.
It is true that the hunters who got a hold of past legendaries instead of a melee class were tards, but this rogue who has the bow is no less of a tard really.
They're both stat sticks, but one is a shitty stat stick, and the other is the best thing said rogue could have in the slot.
Doesn't change the fact that it's a "hunter item", but that's where the attendance/contribution stuff comes in.
What's done is done, I'm curious as to how the two hunters reacted, and if they knew this would be the case ahead of time, or if it was sprung upon them.
Agreed, unless they decided instead to give it a 50% or so drop rate. Then it's something of a moot point.
I've heard the drop rate is good... maybe not 50% good, but better than the glaives.
Trial players are trial players. I wouldn't give anyone a legendary until they've proven a high level of commitment, skill and availability.
It can take over a month to gear someone up to be Sunwell viable. Two months is really a short amount of time to be in a guild and expect a legendary drop. Especially since these guys have been working and wiping on this content since March? 6 months?
If those hunters didn't earn their way through the content with the guild, they probably don't deserve it. Plus, it's not like that bow going to a rogue is going to slow down their progression. They're done with the game until WotlK. Give the gear to the people who have earned it, imo.
The warrior was really pissed. The warrior gquit. We decided that was for the best.
Here's the funny thing: that sword dropped like candy (ass candy?) for us. It's possible the warrior might have gotten it earlier if he had better attendance (meaning, showed up when it dropped earlier...or at least, he would have had enough dkp), and certainly would have gotten it in later kills.
I've seen it said that they were on the server for 2 months.
Do we have any indication of how long actually in guild? Any dkp site showing how many actual raids they were called up for?
Edit; one of the funniest misappropriations I ever saw was a hunter getting a CTS over the rogues in the raid. Of note; it's not like attendance was a factor, they'd all been in the guild for ages, they just /rolled, and the hunter rolled the highest.
It was hillarious and sad at the same time.
I remember a certain hunter I ran with in that train wreck of a guild that had almost every weapon that droped in MC, BWL, Aq40 and was given first choice on everything because they made him an officer
It's because of the pure greed of this one and the semi greed of other others is why I dislike people who play hunters in general
I was beyond happy to replace the cape of the black baron within two hours of TBC on my rogue and to get rid of the tanking bow {the one that drops off the raptor boss in ZG} I was forced to use in slave pens
"On a side note, I don’t wish this to reflect negatively on either Tums or Zzerg, they are both very talented hunters and I enjoy raiding with them very much. They brought a ton skill and dedication to this guild and have made us stronger and helped turn us into what we are today."
Pretty glowing review of the two hunters, as well.
I was right he is a jackass.
As an officer I'd still probably push for one of the hunters to get it, as it's not a perfect parallel, but I'm not blind to the train of thought that could lead to such a choice, and without having all sides of the story, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt here.
These aren't some random asshats giving the Prince's dagger to a rogue, this is clearly a calculated choice by a crew that is very good at what they do. While we may disagree with it from afar, unless the guild implodes in the next few weeks, it seems that it's likely an internally consistant choice.
God where's the rolleyes when you need it?
I could actually see it being the opposite. New raiders give up a lot to switch guilds. They don't know if they're going to get raid spots, they don't know if they'll like the people, they almost certainly alienate their old guild and some friends. If anything, new members that you needed to beat content are doing you a favor by coming on.
Or do we just assume that they're ninja-ing, server transfering, name changing douches?
I mean, really, if it's okay for a rogue to have that bow over a couple hunters (And two months is plenty of time to decide if you want to keep a raid member or not) than there is no good reason why a hunter can't roll on whatever melee item with attack power, crit rating or agility they want.
PS. I had to swallow a warlock winning the only Midnight drop I've ever seen.
Generalities are making this a headache.
I'm thinking this is patently false. If the guild didn't need them to kill KJ, they wouldn't have taken them. If they did need them, they needed all the gear and skill they brought with.
That, to me, says that they contributed quite a bit.
Oh, okay. I was following the thread. Clarification:
In the EVENT that these two hunters were raiding steadily for the two months prior to the legendary drop, THEN that is plenty of time to decide if the guild wants to keep 'em and they should have full loot rights.
However, if it was, like, their second raid with the group, then I can understand not giving them a legendary. If I was in the RL position, I probably would have (That Warlock who got Midnight was also on his second raid with us), but that's just me and I don't really have this big hardon for loot.
Other than that goddamn horse. Because my Pally so could have used a demon horse.
For the top guilds that have been clearing it for a while, it's about a 3-4 hour encounter. Anyone that they bring into the guild is basically getting a free tour of Sunwell. They're working on 2-3 day raid weeks to fully clear BT and Sunwell.
In that environment, I don't believe a hunter that joins the raid group towards the end of the shit progression cycle which allows them to basically sit in super fun-time farming land automatically earns a legendary bow for being a hunter.
It is best in slot for rogues. If there's a huge disparity between what the hunter and the rogue have put into the guild, it's at least debatable to consider giving the bow to a rogue.
And since not a one of us really know the relationship the hunters/rogue had with the guild besides a generic timeline (Which means jack shit without looking at their contributions during that timeframe), it's a bit hard to really make a call on the situation.
Their gear and skill was really doing the guild a whole lot of good when learning previous fights. When it comes down to it, they were only around for one progression kill and really cannot be expected to be treated the same as someone who was there for the guilds entire raiding career.
It's be a nice (if tiny) boon from Blizzard to have their end of expansion boss have a good drop table.
Not really. A lot of Sunwell farming guilds are looking forward and recruiting for WotlK needs. This includes redesigning raid groups around alt specs (LOL BOOMKINS) and current raiders who will reroll Death Knights.
This means, what, a 4 DPS increase for that rogue? It's best in slot for hunters. Best in slot, in this case, equating to probably more than a 50 DPS upgrade. Best in slot =/= Best in slot. It's not a valid argument, in my opinion. Apples to Shoelaces.
DPS should not be an issue if you have KJ on farm.
Well, then why should the rogue care if he gets it? My point isn't "It's a bigger DPS boost to the raid." My point is, "Best in slot or not, the bow is a much much much much much bigger upgrade for the hunter." Exponentially so.
Oh, but it is depending on the difference between the characters. It just depends on whether or not they value the rogue 12.5x more than they value the hunter.
Which I wouldn't overly doubt with a Sunwell raiding group.
And if the upgrade doesn't matter for the guild, why not give it to the guy that has spent hundreds of hours more than the new hunter earning the drops from KJ?
Erm, what? Hunters outdps rogues in Sunwell.
Edit: Nevermind. Those numbers are horribly skewed by one fight. They're definitely about equal overall, though.
True, but it's been a fairly slow news day, and it's more entertaining debating this than just bitching en masse how 90%+ of us aren't in WLK beta.