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Air Force or Army ROTC?
Sacrilicious
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I'm about to join ROTC and I'm wondering what branch would be best if I want to be a pilot. My flight instructor flew blackhawk helicopters in Vietnam, and he says the army has the most pilots. I've heard the AF gets most of it's pilots from the Academy.
Anyway, I remember there being some military guys on this forum, and I'd appreciate any advice.
Anyway, I remember there being some military guys on this forum, and I'd appreciate any advice.
Sacrilicious on
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I would pick the service which you can most stand to be in if you DON'T become a pilot. Because the chances of that happening are slim. Not that you don't have as much a chance as any, but they're still slim. Even if you do end up a pilot, lots of guys spend a couple years just trying to get into flight school.
It shouldn't be too hard to find out how many 2nd LTs each service is sending to flight school, I just have no idea where to look.
I agree with the navy, they also have a much larger air craft support staff in case you don't make it through flight school.
In general for AFROTC, about 55% of all those who apply to be a pilot actually get a slot. This is an important first step...however, getting this slot DOES NOT in any way guarantee you are going to fly. First, if you want an in-depth analysis of slot selection, PM me. I'm not going to waste everyone's time in here typing out that essay. Assume you get the slot; you will then be sent to San Antonio, TX for a flight physical. Over two days (at minimum) you will be put through a range of tests, including an extensive eye exam. People get killed by this all the time. I've done a lot of stupid shit in my life and broken bones doing it. I went in there with a record of 6 or 7 broken arms and a dislocated shoulder. They let me survive the exam (I BARELY passed depth perception), but required me to do a followup with someone. The followup yielded, direct quote from the report, "mild, possible osteopenia, most likely correctible over a year with calcium supplements." My pilot career ended that fast. Osteopenia means that if I had taken a bone density test against another 22 year old at the time, I would be SLIGHTLY thinner. This is waiverable, but the AF isn't really in a pilot shortage, so I got the axe. This is of course before a bogus felony investigation and some extreme circumstances got me kicked out right before commissioning.
What people have said about lifestyle is also very important. I can't speak from experience, but from my extensive involvement in the AFROTC program as well as my close interaction with Army ROTC through another program I was in, the overwhelming opinion is that Air Force will treat you and your family a lot better than Army. Generally, deployment conditions can be better as well. So that's something to consider. I can also speak from personal experience that Air Force has A LOT more politically correct bullshit. It's a very prissy service...things that wouldn't even bat an eye in the Army world can register as seismic events in Air Force world. If you are generally someone that disobeys minor rules or speaks often before thinking, AF will be a much rougher time for you.
To directly address your post; Air Force gets almost an equal number of pilots from the academy as ROTC. The difference is that the Academy is a MUCH smaller pool of people...the same number that is 55% acceptance from the AFROTC pool is more like 80% acceptance at the Academy pool. But if you work hard, and make a good impression, you have a very good shot at getting a pilot slot. Again, PM me for the details. The best advice I can give you is DO NOT join the military solely to be a pilot. Join for the purpose of serving, and the camaderie and unique environment of the military, and look at the pilot slot as your first choice. If you marry yourself to the idea of being a pilot, and don't get it, you are going to feel like shit.
PSN: TheScrublet
Scrublet covered the initial flight school barrier pretty well. I can't speak for the Air Force selection process beyond that, but I can for the Navy. In the Navy, once you make it to flight school, you of course have to pass it. During the process of going through flight school, you end up getting a ranking for your class. Last I heard, the top graduate for each class gets their choice of plane. Everyone else gets to pick in turn from a list of what the Navy has openings for. Where you came from (ROTC, Academy, OCS, MMR) doesn't play a role in what you end up flying, they only affect what pool of people and what number of slots you are competing with/for to get into flight school. There are also quite a number of fun planes to fly that are in between fighter jet and propeller cargo plane.
If you want to fly fighters, you will probably have a better chance in the Navy than you will in the Air Force.
PSN: TheScrublet
Basically, Academy is the way to go, i know there are a lot of former ROTC kids here but they do have to do all 4 years at the academy. If you want to that is always an option to get a guaranteed pilot slot as long as you stay off probations and have decent grades and MPA and PEA. Also make sure you aren't colorblind, i remember during BCT a lot of kids found out they were colorblind and their dreams were crushed because that was the reason they came here.
Just got to say to you and anyone else at an Academy who might be reading--carry that attitude with you into the officer corps and you will have your ass handed to you. Right now you're treated like a special snowflake because the government is spending a lot of time and money on you. The day you graduate you become a dumb know-nothing 2nd LT just like everyone else, regardless of how they got there. Going to the Academy helps you with networking, but so does going reserve or OCS. In fact, it seems like the reserve officers are actually a lot more tightknit than Academy guys. Maybe because they all network out in the real world too, who knows. And chances are that much of your chain of command will be non-Academy grads.
I myself am a service academy grad, so don't think the above is some kind of bitterness or whatever. It's just reality.
Another side to look at it is that the guys who fly the big fixed wings are the guys who make the big bucks as commercial pilots when they get out.
...and you are the reason Academy cadets have a rep of being jackasses. I don't know why you'd think ROTC is 'strict' in any sense of the word, because it really...isn't. And if you really think that the "ROTC guys aren't one of us" then have fun in the operational Air Force. Your NCO's will detect that attitude and eat you alive. Good luck.
Anyways, to the OP, my experience with AF ROTC was nothing but positive. If you want to be a pilot, you can absolutely do it. I think 55% is a bit low for the selection rate right now, as the AF is looking for pilots. Then again that changes year to year, so don't bank on percentages. Just do your best physically, get good grades, and be involved and you will get a slot. Sounds simple enough, but it can be tough.
From what I've been told about flight school, at the end they rack and stack you against your classmates, and roll several aircraft down the line. #1 2nd LT steps up and takes his pick, then #2 and so on. So your ranking in your class directly influences your career path. They might not do the roll out anymore cause of fuel prices and just let you pick from a list, but the idea is the same. They have X openings and X pilots, and they go in order.
Also, for comparison, my senior class has 11 cadets, 5 pilots and the rest didn't apply for pilot selection so 100% acceptance rate. The army guys had I think 9 or 8 people and NO pilots and most applied.
That's just 1 example, so take it with a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure the Air Force has more pilots than the other 2 branches combined, however. That's not to say you can't fly in the Army or Navy. In fact I'm told your odds of being a pilot going through the Naval Academy are great, considering most people at the AF Academy want to fly, where at the Naval Academy there's a variety. That was like 6 years ago though so it may have changed.
Anyways if you have any other questions just drop me a line. I just commissioned recently through Air Force ROTC and I *think* I can answer most questions about it. If not I can at least find you someone who can!
there were some perfectly normal rotc kids who i had no problem with but there were others who tried to take charge when they had no idea what was going on and just ended up making a giant mess. also saying how some things are easier at their school to our faces is not the way to make friends with everyone else. the rotc kid in the tent across from me did not interact with anyone and literally slept during all of the free time.
it also could have had something to do with the fact that they all volunteered for a mandatory event when they got to leave the day before we could go back and didn't help out at all in clean up or set up.
But please don't pigeonhole/stereotype and entire arm of AETC though, and I promise I won't either. Cool?
Some people are douche bags, on BOTH sides.
Also, those SOAR and jump slots I *think* were the ones that got dissolved a few years ago, and ROTC bitched to high heaven so the Academy gave them back. So it's not like you had them for the last 30 years or so and just got them taken away, it was more like the last 2 years you had extra. Again, I could be wrong, but I know a guy a year ahead of me went to SOAR and the guy in MY class who wanted to go couldn't because of lack of ANY ROTC slots so it seems to fit.
For those on the outside of this, SOAR is a skydiving (essentially) program and the jump program is a static line (think band of brothers or other WWII parachuting style) Army skydiving. I'm sure someone whose done it could explain more.
Last edit, I promise.
The Air Force DEFINITELY takes better care of their folks. Being stationed in a "Joint" area, I see it everyday. The barracks we consider deplorable and are spending tons to renovate, the Navy considers "standard" for their junior enlisted. I have nothing but respect for the other services, but if they expect so much from their people they need to pony up and take care of them.
Not that any sort of military aviation is risk-free, but it seems like helicopters malfunction at greater rates and are way more likely to get shot down in battle than a plane.
I've flown everything from cesnas to F-18s.
If you want to be awesome. Go navy. Anyone can take off and land a plane on land. Landing on a boat makes you better.
If you want to be less than awesome go army or airforce. Nothing against these guys but navy wings of gold are the best wings of gold. Also we have better duty stations (San diego for the win)
Also if you don't mind not flying jets but want the best duty stations ever check out the coast guard (gettting stationed in miami/keywest/san francisco and no one shoots at you.
That is mostly correct however,
Your selection is most importantly determined by what the navy needs. It doesnt matter if you have a perfect score. If the week you graduate the navy needs 20 jet dudes you go jets. If they need zero you don't. The navy selection is by far the worst this way.
This is pretty much crap. Especially for the navy. Air force guys usually do get pilot slots from the academy but so do the ROTC guys.
Whether you go to a service academy or a regular ROTC unit won't really affect your chances of getting pilot. The cadets and or midshipman are all ranked nation wide for the slot selection. If you have better grades then an academy guy you will get a pilot slot over him. If they have better grades than you you won't. Also Once you get to your initial flight school indoc you are all on exactly equal footing. Some people like the service academy. I had more fun drinking and screwing for 4 years of college then getting yelled at and eatting meals at the position of attention, and not being allowed to go out on weekends ect. (Most everyone agrees the academy's are nice places to be from but not great to actually be at.)
So much fail in this thread dear god.
Helicopters are by FAR the safest aircraft in the armed service. We have the least number of mishaps per flight hour in the entire service. You hear about helicopter mishaps because when they go down more than just one or 2 people die. But there are A SHIT LOAD of mishap free flight hours. We fly more than any other aircraft, We have more diverse missions, They are easier to maintain, Last longer, and are just generally safer (two pilots are better than one) Jet guys might fly 10-20 hours a month. We fly 40-50 operationally. If we have one mishap on a deployment everyone hears about it because in the army or marines there are 10 enlisted dudes in the back that get killed.
If a jet goes down and the pilot lives because he ejected no one ever hears about it. All they lost is a plane. Unless it was a thunder bird or a blue angle no one gives a crap.
Well, there's also lots of CG pilots stationed in Sitka, Kodiak, and Traverse City
Unlike the airforce where you are stationed in the middle of god damn no where no matter what you fly.
Funny Hickam, may not be accessible, but i doubt people complain. Again to reiterate as far as pilot slots go, the AF Academy basically gets enough slots for everyone who wants one. In ROTC you're competing with the other folks for one, based almost entirely on GPA. Which has led to some bitterness amongst my engineer ROTC friends. OTS even gets a few slots, but not many. My old roommate was West Point, and couldn't get a pilot slot so he cross commissioned in the AF because we have more slots. If you really want to fly, then I suggest AF academy.
-Terry Pratchett
I'm not surprised. The academies tend to focus on the career fields that build generals for one reason or another. In the Navy this means you command ships, in the Army tanks and infantry. In the Air Force well it's pilots. I've got to sat this I've yet to go to a navy base that wasn't in a beautiful location. Of course I've only been to 3.
-Terry Pratchett
I've seen Marine OCS candidates with Flight options get denied because the slots are too competitive. Sure, this is anecdotal but my buddy just finished his OCS/TBS and Job school (I don’t know what you guys call it in the Corps) and one of his selections was Rotary-wing (Helicopters). He got denied because he didn’t place high enough in his class and was instead stuck with ground logistics.
I agree that you should think about life inside the service branch you want to join. The Army and Marine Corps Active-Duty can be pretty demanding and it can strain relationships and put other goals behind. You don’t get the best of living styles and if you ever deploy the chow and living differences between the services will shock you. I would say if you want to make a career out of it, go either Navy or Air Force. They are more accommodating towards their service members and their families. If you can’t get into a flight slot, try getting into Flight operations/logistics or intelligence because after your time in the service, those fields are very marketable.
For every officer I've come across the best ones are the former enlisted. The former enlisted officers know what it's like, they know what they want and how to deliver the information, and they know what to expect but more importantly, they know how to command and lead troops.
ROTC/Academy grads are usually not so gifted as they tend to focus more on studies and the education rather than the basic skills of leadership.
I'd be very suprised if you have ever landed on a boat
I'm not going to cover how hilarious the anecdotal evidence was in this post, as I think Iceman and others did fine. To the OP...I do not need an academy background to tell you that getting an academy allocation as well as your actual day to day life are both a LOT harder than getting a pilot's slot through ROTC. Granted once you get into the academy you WILL get that slot (health nonwithstanding), but the only thing you'll be gaining from a "which branch is better" perspective is that some of the uncertainty will end a lot sooner.
To that guy a couple posts up: stop hating all officers that weren't enlisted because "they haven't been there, man." I don't know what branch you're from, but currently the AFPC is reporting that about 63% of officers are coming from ROTC/Academy and 19% are from OTS (and yes, a good portion of those OTS will not be former enlisted). They are not all bad. If that opinion was in any way intended to recommend to the OP that doing enlisted first is the way to get his pilot chance, I want to clarify that this is NOT how you do it.
PSN: TheScrublet
HAHA ships fine
but I have to say my initial carrier qual was done on a barge in Pensacola bay. I wouldn't call that a ship. Also landed on a glacier, desert, and one time on a oil rig.
As of right now I can choose between Army and AF since they're offered at my school. With regard to what I'd like to fly, I guess fixed wing if I could fly jets, but I've heard helos are really fun.
Is this true?
Yes and no. The way the system works, there are four tracks: Fighter/Bomber, Heavies (C-130, etc.), Helos, and a fourth (I forget it what it is, related to Heavies in some way I think). In a class of 20 pilots, you can expect NO MORE than four to get the F/B track...and that's not even saying what they fly in that track. They could get an F-16...they could get a B-1B. Who knows? Needs of the Air Force...you can expect most people to wind up in Heavies.
But, this has NOTHING to do with ROTC. The second you graduate from college, and they graduate from their Academy, there is no longer any difference. Except that at ASBC (an orientation to the AF everyone has to go through), the level of Academy 2LTs getting off the leash (finally) and getting themselves in trouble was a major well-known joke around the time I got the boot. Regardless, what you fly will be determined by needs of the air force, your performance at pilot school, and your pilot school's ranking of you against your classmates. That is it.
Side note: The impression I always got was that Army guys loved flying their helos, Aviation branch and all that jazz, but that in Air Force few people get them (or want them), and the helo slots usually go to the bottom areas of the pilot classes. I don't know much about it, but be aware.
Edit again: I dug up some archives I had for some resources on the AF side of this subject...
Wantscheck.com - This is good for all kinds of information on getting a pilot slot, and the process that happens after you get it. There is some bad information (it warns against choosing majors...I can tell you 100% that your major DOES NOT help or hurt your chances), but by and large useful.
Baseops.net - Another major site, most of it is beyond where you are right now but in their message boards they have a "Pilot Selection Process" subforum.
http://www.hamletthouse.com/html/pilot_section.html - This guy's journal is AWESOME. It is extremely comprehensive on all aspects of pilot training. You want to see what you'll be dealing with for the first couple of years on the Air Force side? This is it. Though understand that the pre-phase I stuff (and possibly more) is slightly out of date. But still, it's a good browse if you want to get some idea of how life will work.
PSN: TheScrublet
the problem isn't that they were commissioned out of ROTC, the problem is that a lot of brand new butter bars show up on the line and don't bother listening to their platoon sergeants because they think they're hot shit.
at least, that's why the mustang officers were better respected in the army.
You are about as likely to become a fighter pilot as you are to become an NBA star. It's just the way things go.
Anecdotal: I'm a civ contractor with the Air Force this summer and holy fuck do those guys have it easy. Then again, the "base" I'm working at isn't exactly typical.
We're known as hollywood air force base over here. A lot of those Air force guys you seen in transformers are people from LAAFB
-Terry Pratchett
It's like this, I'm a mediocre Civil Eng student. I went into the Engineering AFSC. If I had been a stellar CE guy, I could have gotten a pilot slot. If I had been a mediocre say, history major, I could have gotten a pilot slot. But because I was an engineering major (which is the only person who can fill those AFSC's for engineering) I was placed to CE.
Make sense, kinda? I hope so I dont think I did a very good job of explaining it.
This is wrong. I say this because as a Computer Science major, I was hyper paranoid about this. Fortunately, I had lots of opportunities to ask about it. So I did. I started with my Det Commander. Then I asked the Region Commander. I got a chance to talk to the AFROTC Commander at AAS NATCON, so I asked him. At academic week prior to Field Training, the AFOATS Commander came over from Maxwell AFB and spoke, got asked this question by someone else, and answered. And all answers were the same:
Your major does not factor in AT ALL to pilot selection.
You're a mediocre CE major. That means your grades weren't high, so you didn't get what you needed to on the GPA section of the Order of Merit. Commanders also use your GPA (among other things) to rank you in your class, so your GPA probably hurt your ranking (which is 50% of the Order of Merit). But literally every O-5, O-6, and pilot I ever put this question to came out the same.
Your logic on the whole mediocre history vs. mediocre CE is sound...especially for any other career field in the AF...but with Pilot, they want the best people regardless of major, and have structured the OM to find those people.
Order of Merit details (and more clarification on why major doesn't impact it):
You get 15 points for your GPA. No rocket science here. Take your 4.0-scale GPA and multiply it by 3.75.
You get 10 points for your PFT (I guess it's called PFA now?). Take your score and multiply it by .1.
You get 10 points for your Field Training ranking. 6=bottom 1/3, 7=mid 1/3, 8=top 1/3, 9=SP, 10=DG.
You get 15 points for your PCSM. This part may have changed since my exit. However, at the time it was based on a combination of your Pilot section of the AFOQT, your pilot hours, and your results on the Basic Attributes Test (essentially, a little video game that tests your innate pilot ability). Everyone I talked to recommended AGAINST spending money on pilot training and hours to try to improve this. Plenty of people get slots with single or teens scores here, and people with high scores still get their slots denied. DO NOT spend the money.
The process works like this...everyone's OM number goes in, they decide how many pilot slots they're going to give, and they draw a line. That simple, that cold. I'm told the line is usually mid to high 80s, but I don't know. You're above the line, congratulations. You're close? You get put on a waiting list as they throw people through medical processing, and if people like me get kicked you get moved up. Next people get strike-navigator slots, then nav, then ABM.
Notice in there where it says "you get this many points for your major"? That's because it's not there. As far as the selection process cares, your major is completely hidden. Consider what would happen if it did matter...you figure the smartest, most motivated people are in most cases going to choose hard majors like engineering, etc. But these are also the people that want to be pilots. You tell them their major will matter, and then all of a sudden you have the best people choosing the easiest, least useful majors. Bad news.
Further edit: Note that the pilot stuff comes back WAY sooner than other career fields. That is because first the pilots need to succeed or fail, so that the people who don't get pilot can then wait on their real career field.
PSN: TheScrublet
Like I said, if you get a 4.0 in some engineering field you're probably a lock for a pilot slot (as far as your academics are concerned anyways).
A 3.0, while still a good average to have, and you're probably in the "should go into engineering" stage. However if you're a history, english, etc guy, you probably have a better shot than your engineering colleague. It's simply because engineering AFSC's mandate engineering degrees, which there are a limited number of.
So yes, major does not factor into pilot choices...directly. Like you said, they want the best folks. Which they get. What they don't want is to have 800 engineer pilots and no engineers.
Edit for clarity:
Recap: Get a 4.0 in anything and you're sitting pretty. Getting a 3.0 and you're better off as a history/english/art major to get a pilot slot, if you get a slot.
This is incorrect. A 3.0 engineering major has an identical chance of a slot of a 3.0 history major if they have the exact same number. If the 3.0 engineering major spent all his time studying, and got fat as a result and didn't have as much visibility in his detachment (hurting both his PFA and his RSS), then he will have less of a chance, correct. But if a 3.0 history major and a 3.0 engineering major have the same PCSM pilot score, same PFT, same Field Training rank, and the same ranking at their different detachments, then they will have identical OM scores. As long as that score is above "the line", they will both get the slot.
What is true is that the engineering guy will be in a better position than the history guy if their scores were "below the line".
PSN: TheScrublet