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The Sandman Thread about Sandman (The Series)

Beanish23Beanish23 Registered User
edited November 2008 in Graphic Violence
Hey all, first time posting. I wanted to share a theory, tear it apart as you will.

I was finishing my copy of Absolute Sandman Vol. 3 last night. In the bonus section is a short story from one of the Vertigo specials, 9 pages if I recall. It is about Desire and her meeting some people on a train and fucking with them. That's not important, what's important is that I think they revealed who Despair used to be. If you'll recall (those who've read it), Despair isn't the original. The first Despair got killed and the current took her place. They never said who she was previous Endless-wise. But in this short comic the poet dude recites a piece about Desire in which he drops a line similar to this:

"The Devotion That Became Despair"

Did anyone else notice this, and am I just reading a ridiculous amount into this? I just can't trust this Gaiman fellow as far as I can throw him. Damn it.

TLDR: Devotion became Despair.

Will get the exact line when I get home.

Beanish23 on
«13

Posts

  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    the place for this would really be the questions thread actually


    UNLESS you want to turn this into a general sandman thread

    Servo on
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  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Wouldn't that mean that there would have been eight Endless at one point? You'd think someone would've mentioned that.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    Wouldn't that mean that there would have been eight Endless at one point? You'd think someone would've mentioned that.

    no, the idea is that
    the endless can and have been replaced at other times. it's stated at some point that despair is in fact the second "being" in this universe to fulfill that role. it's basically sort of like how daniel replaces morpheus at the end of the series. something similar happened to delirium. she used to be "delight" but went a little funny. she didn't die, though, which is what happened to despair and dream. destruction just abandoned his post and since he never died, nobody took his place

    Servo on
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  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    Wouldn't that mean that there would have been eight Endless at one point? You'd think someone would've mentioned that.

    no, the idea is that
    the endless can and have been replaced at other times. it's stated at some point that despair is in fact the second "being" in this universe to fulfill that role. it's basically sort of like how daniel replaces morpheus at the end of the series. something similar happened to delirium. she used to be "delight" but went a little funny. she didn't die, though, which is what happened to despair and dream. destruction just abandoned his post and since he never died, nobody took his place

    Yeah, but Beanish is positing that the entity that is now Despair was previously another Endless called Devotion, unless I'm reading him wrong. Since there was another Despair before te current one, there would have been eight Endless in total.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    Wouldn't that mean that there would have been eight Endless at one point? You'd think someone would've mentioned that.

    no, the idea is that
    the endless can and have been replaced at other times. it's stated at some point that despair is in fact the second "being" in this universe to fulfill that role. it's basically sort of like how daniel replaces morpheus at the end of the series. something similar happened to delirium. she used to be "delight" but went a little funny. she didn't die, though, which is what happened to despair and dream. destruction just abandoned his post and since he never died, nobody took his place

    Yeah, but Beanish is positing that the entity that is now Despair was previously another Endless called Devotion, unless I'm reading him wrong. Since there was another Despair before te current one, there would have been eight Endless in total.

    i assumed he meant that a combination happened, that it once used to be called devotion but died and was replaced by despair

    honestly that makes sense to me. it certainly would fit into the general theme of the series

    Servo on
    newsigs.jpg
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Oh right, yeah, that makes sense.

    Sorta-kinda fits with Despair being twin of Desire.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • Beanish23Beanish23 Registered User
    edited July 2008
    Blast, questions thread. Of course! I hadn't any intent of making a big Sandman-y thread, I just wanted to wax with some people on Ms Despair is all. Can you merge it? Or should we roll this way? I'll have the source stuff in a few hours once work ends. Apologies for the mis-thread.

    Beanish23 on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    no, too bad I'M making it the sandman thread now. if people don't want to post in it, so be it

    Servo on
    newsigs.jpg
  • Beanish23Beanish23 Registered User
    edited July 2008
    Fair enough. The Sandman deserves a thread. He is all things to all men (and one special woman!)

    Beanish23 on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Beanish23 wrote: »
    Fair enough. The Sandman deserves a thread. He is all things to all men (and one special woman!)
    If that special woman is Ms. Hall, Fuck her.

    Fencingsax on
  • Beanish23Beanish23 Registered User
    edited July 2008
    OK, not as specific as I thought but here goes. The line goes thusly:

    "By the hunger of change and emotion, by the thirst of unbearable things. By despair the twin-born of devotion by the pleasure that winces and stings."

    So, that's my grand contribution to things. Now, I return to my poorly animated 80s movie.

    Beanish23 on
  • nosnibornosnibor Registered User
    edited July 2008
    I say the best thing to come out of Sandman was Lucifer.

    nosnibor on
    When you're a spy, it's a good idea to give away your trade secrets in a voiceover on a TV show.
  • The_LightbringerThe_Lightbringer Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Yes I think so too

    The_Lightbringer on
    LuciferSig.jpg
  • thorpethorpe Registered User
    edited July 2008
    I liked Sandman, but never as much as everyone around me. Neil Gaiman in general is rather "blah" to me.

    thorpe on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • nosnibornosnibor Registered User
    edited July 2008
    thorpe wrote: »
    I liked Sandman, but never as much as everyone around me. Neil Gaiman in general is rather "blah" to me.

    Both him and Alan Moore, for me. I can deal with Gaiman, but I just don't "get" Moore.

    nosnibor on
    When you're a spy, it's a good idea to give away your trade secrets in a voiceover on a TV show.
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    nosnibor wrote: »
    thorpe wrote: »
    I liked Sandman, but never as much as everyone around me. Neil Gaiman in general is rather "blah" to me.

    Both him and Alan Moore, for me. I can deal with Gaiman, but I just don't "get" Moore.
    I don't really "get" Moore or Morrison.

    Fencingsax on
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I think Gaiman's a lot better on shorter, more focussed things like Signal to Noise than longer stories and runs like Sandman or Miracleman.

    Signal to Noise is probably my favourite thing Gaiman's done, actually, in prose or comics.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Personally, Neil Gaiman is one of my favorite authors out there. His comics do tend to be better than his novels, though.

    I really need to just up and buy the Absolute Sandman collections sometime.

    Centipede Damascus on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Yeah, me too. I should just bite the bullet and get every Absolute and Omnibus I want in one giant orgy of spending.

    SageinaRage on
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  • ClausClaus Registered User
    edited July 2008
    Sandman was one of the first American comics I ever really "got into", and it's still one of my absolute favorites.

    Has Sandman, and more specifically the Endless, played into the DC universe at all?, besides the Sandman comics themself?

    Also, how much extra is there in the absolute volumes? Because I am a whore for anything Sandman related written by Gaiman, but is it worth the shameful amount of money?

    Claus on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    Claus wrote: »
    Sandman was one of the first American comics I ever really "got into", and it's still one of my absolute favorites.

    Has Sandman, and more specifically the Endless, played into the DC universe at all?, besides the Sandman comics themself?
    not really. if i remember correctly, neil gaiman asked dc to not use the endless without him or without his permission and for the most part they've stuck to that. there's a jla story where daniel turns up for a little bit at the end and i think he turns up in related series occasionally, but generally he doesn't do much. he appears in lucifer for a bit too, which makes more sense.

    Servo on
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  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Destiny was in The Bold and the Brave, or brave and bold, or whatever.

    SageinaRage on
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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I always found it to be crazy funny that after the series 'ended', there were twenty or so spinoff books that awkwardly continued the story. The franchise is still limping along, I think.

    emnmnme on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    lucifer was the best of the lot, easily, and it succeeded primarily because mike carey specifically made it so thematically and tonally different from sandman.

    Servo on
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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Destiny was in The Bold and the Brave, or brave and bold, or whatever.

    Destiny was actually an established DC character prior to his appearance in Sandman.

    Munch on
  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    The only Endless not created by Gaiman, in fact.

    Red or Alive on
  • spectatorspectator Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    lucifer was the best of the lot, easily, and it succeeded primarily because mike carey specifically made it so thematically and tonally different from sandman.
    I found Lucifer to be much better than Sandman. The story was much more focused than Sandman which seemed to jump around alot.

    spectator on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    Claus wrote: »
    Sandman was one of the first American comics I ever really "got into", and it's still one of my absolute favorites.

    Has Sandman, and more specifically the Endless, played into the DC universe at all?, besides the Sandman comics themself?
    not really. if i remember correctly, neil gaiman asked dc to not use the endless without him or without his permission and for the most part they've stuck to that. there's a jla story where daniel turns up for a little bit at the end and i think he turns up in related series occasionally, but generally he doesn't do much. he appears in lucifer for a bit too, which makes more sense.

    Danial was in JSA and in a cut panel from Infinite Crisis. Dream (Morpheus) was in Green Arrow: Quiver. The day of judgement trade talks about the Endless in the place of magik. Identity Crisis mentions that there are seven aspects that control humanity and names two of them as Despair and Destruction.

    Bloods End on
  • KVWKVW Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    The Vertigo panel announced Death hardcover collections and a comic book adaptation of the Dream Hunters prose book.
    The Sandman: Dream Hunters is a four issue mini-series adapted by and drawn as a comic as opposed to illustrated text. By Craig Russell, it will be out in November.

    The Complete Death is coming out as a hardcover collection with all the death mini-series and a few short stories that were in various Vertigo mini-series over the years.

    Not sure if I'll get the Dream Hunters one, but looking forward to the Death HC. Now all that remains is a Lucifer HC announcement.

    KVW on
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    spectator wrote: »
    Servo wrote: »
    lucifer was the best of the lot, easily, and it succeeded primarily because mike carey specifically made it so thematically and tonally different from sandman.
    I found Lucifer to be much better than Sandman. The story was much more focused than Sandman which seemed to jump around alot.

    I'm pretty sure the story jumped around a lot because it was about dreams.

    Dreams jump around a lot.

    Centipede Damascus on
  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I mean, it's not even one single story. It's a series of events, a collection of stories. In some cases, the stories are about Dream, and the events are those of his life. In other cases, the stories are about other people/creatures/things, and sometimes Dream is just a bit player in those stories. There's an underlying story about Dream and his personality and certain decisions he makes, but not everything that happens to him directly contributes to his decisions.

    Delduwath on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    Delduwath wrote: »
    I mean, it's not even one single story. It's a series of events, a collection of stories. In some cases, the stories are about Dream, and the events are those of his life. In other cases, the stories are about other people/creatures/things, and sometimes Dream is just a bit player in those stories. There's an underlying story about Dream and his personality and certain decisions he makes, but not everything that happens to him directly contributes to his decisions.

    mm, i don't know about that. i think even the most incidental stories were pushing the agenda of dream's personality, just how long he'd been kind of a dick, and how much of a struggle it was for him to change himself.

    Servo on
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    There were a few stand-alone tales, but a lot of the seemingly one-shot stories had plot points that were touched on later.

    DarkPrimus on
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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Without a doubt the whole series shows Dream's personality and what's done in the past and so on. What I meant was that it wasn't, like, one sequential narrative. It wasn't "This happened and then this happened and then Billy went to the store and the Annie was there and then stuff".

    Delduwath on
  • KyleWPetersonKyleWPeterson Registered User
    edited July 2008
    Another Absolute on the way?

    "I got a call from Vertigo editor-queen Karen Berger asking how I'd feel about another volume of Absolute Sandman, one with Endless Nights and Dream Hunters, and perhaps the Sandman Midnight Theatre story, and the story at the beginning of Dust Covers in it.... I'm not sure. I like that Sandman is one four volume book. Having said that, lots of you have written and asked about it, and Endless Nights and Mr Amano's lovely Dream Hunters are both out of print as hardbacks, and it would be nice to see that art that huge. I suppose I'd feel fine about it if we called it something other than Absolute Sandman Volume 5. Absolute Sandman Supplemental maybe?"

    Kyle

    KyleWPeterson on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Without a doubt, the Emperor of America short story was the best one. His insanity kept him sane. :rotate:

    emnmnme on
  • KyleWPetersonKyleWPeterson Registered User
    edited July 2008
    My favorite short story is probably the Tale of Two Cities one.

    Kyle

    KyleWPeterson on
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Without a doubt, the Emperor of America short story was the best one. His insanity kept him sane. :rotate:

    You realize Emperor Norton was a real person?

    But yes that telling of the story was one of my favorite Sandman bits. That and Barbie seeing Wanda as a girl in her dream.

    MuddBudd on
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  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Without a doubt, the Emperor of America short story was the best one. His insanity kept him sane. :rotate:

    You realize Emperor Norton was a real person?

    You and wikipedia just blew my mind. Freaking awesome.

    KalTorak on
  • gnombolgnombol Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I think Gaiman's a lot better on shorter, more focussed things like Signal to Noise than longer stories and runs like Sandman or Miracleman.

    Signal to Noise is probably my favourite thing Gaiman's done, actually, in prose or comics.

    Some of the single issue Sandman stories, like Dream of 1000 Cats or Ramadan or parts of the World's End arc, are my favorite comics ever.

    I need to read Signal to Noise.

    gnombol on
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