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Is there a carpenter in the house?
JebusUD
Adventure!Candy IslandRegistered User regular
Adventure!Candy IslandRegistered User regular
Nails. These are the mundane objects I am interested in. I was wondering if anyone who worked on construction, demolition, or carpentry would be able to estimate how many nails would be in an average house?
I was thinking somewhere in the range of 1600 sq. feet and 2000 sq. feet.
All help appreciated.
I was thinking somewhere in the range of 1600 sq. feet and 2000 sq. feet.
All help appreciated.
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
but they're listening to every word I say
JebusUD on
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It really depends, old style houses (70's and earlier) used way more nails than current construction methods, and even among the current methods the number of nails varies depending on type of construction.
Are you looking for an actual number or maybe a combined weight?
I guess the question is what exactly is it that you are trying to find out/communicate?
I am looking for a number preferably.
Primarily wooden. Little if any brick.
I am trying to estimate the size of a house from data collected on an archaeological excavation. I have 1k+ square nails from 25 units across the site. This amount combined with data from previous excavations might give me an idea of the size and quality of construction of the home.
The house probably built between 1870-1880 and was demolished in 1914, serving as a middle to uppermiddle class family home.
but they're listening to every word I say
But off the top of my head, I worked part time with my friend who's dad own his own construction company and I framed about 15 houses in 6 months, I'm pretty sure the boxes of nails we used had about 5,000 or so in them and we used 2-4 boxes. I think each clip had 20-25 nails on it, and there must have been a hundred clips or more in each box for our nail guns.
I would say there's probably enough information, even if it's just archaeological evidence from other excavations to have a good guess at it. It's only the late 1800s, people were definitely stock-taking by that time and would have a pretty good mathematical idea of how many nails it took to build a house of a certain size, I'm sure. Where is this site? I don't imagine building techniques are going to differ wildly between Europe and the US at that time, but if you're going to go googling this information then I'd imagine it'd help to be specific.
To get a really good answer, you're probably going to want to make enquiries through universities or historical associations if you have them to see if you can get access to an expert in construction techniques of the time, of which I'm sure there are. Knowledge of construction techniques is a pretty fundamental necessity for archeologists and I'm ure you'll find plenty of experts on just about every era of human construction.
The estimate above would make sense for a modern house, but if you reduce the connection points, you'd probably lose between 10-20%. Then again, my hardwood floors lack a subfloor, which may adjust the # of nails again.
Also, here is an article about square nails used in home construction around the turn of the century.
Hope that's helpful.
Another major difference is that your house would have been completely framed using nails, where as after the early 1980's much construction started to move towards prefab rafters using truss plates. While faster and cheaper while being as structurally equal or better than nails, these plates fail in a fraction of the time during fire conditions.
For no other reason than to satisfy my curiosity - why is this?
Instead of pushing through the wood like a nail, trussplates use small blades cut from the steel to tack in to the wood from the side. While a nail may go 1-2 inches into the core of the wood, these tacks grip the wood by penetrating only a centimeter or less into the surface of the wood. Under fire conditions, the deterioration of the wood surface and exposed steel plate creates a weaker joint earlier than a traditional nailed joint.
I would love to do that, but time has really, really been tight. I figured sending out the bat signal on the intarwebs couldn't hurt.
The site is right here in St. Cloud MN. Right on campus in fact.
I haven't exactly figured out what the formula for estimation will turn out to be. It is easy to discount the nails from the construction of dormitory that the house was demolished to make a nice front lawn for. All of the nails from the construction were round. So the square nails are almost certainly from this house.
Now obviously I will have to account for some nail loss from the demolition. Then I will have to account for the nails that are still in the ground in unexcavated areas.
So much to do, so little time...
but they're listening to every word I say
I would imagine that the vast majority of the nails would have been taken away in demolition.
Actually, I am not so sure about this. Especially if the nails were ruined. They had no garbage service in 1914 so they just threw junk in pits, burned it, then buried it.
edit: It is my understanding that the house was probably scrapped for parts however. Not just knocked over. So I could see up to half of the nails being taken away in the demolition, simply because who is going to stand there pulling every nail out if they don't have to.
but they're listening to every word I say
hmm that's a good point I hadn't thought of.
edit: not that the wire nails work any better really. People are just dumb like that and probably wouldn't have used them anyway.
but they're listening to every word I say
Are nails the only thing you have to go by? You'd probably get a closer estimate, and via less work, if you just go to a library or some local record hall and look up tax charts or assessments from the turn of the century. Many have surveying charts, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's records of general house sizes and styles in the area.
Your problem will most likely lie in the fact that the nails you've found are so few for 25 houses, that they could easily be "leftovers" that were thrown away during the construction process. Misses, dropped nails, and so on.
Your problem will most likely lie in the fact that the nails you've found are so few for 25 houses, that they could easily be "leftovers" that were thrown away during the construction process. Misses, dropped nails, and so on. [/QUOTE]
I have been to record halls and all they have are fire charts and addresses. The problem really is that there were several structures on the block, and we cant be quite sure which one it was. There may have been up to four structures with foundations on the block. Roads have shifted, the maps aren't super accurate, etc. So, no there are no real figures for house size. The size of the foundation wall we found probably indicates that it was two stories however.
Because of the uncertainty of which structure it was, yes nails are all I have to go by. I'm working specifically on the metal that was found on the dig.
I realize that I may have been unclear when I said units. There is only one house. By 25 units I mean 25 1X1 meter squares were excavated. Since a meter is about 3 feet that means over a thousand nails in 75 square feet. No way this is from leftovers.
edit: some of the nails are straight, not bent or ruined. This means that they were probably simply thrown out. I suppose they could have come out of rotted wood as well.
but they're listening to every word I say
Over two years of excavations 1695 square nails were found over 41 (non-contiguous) square meters
1695 divided by 41 is 41 and 1/3 nails per square meter.
Assuming that the main part of the site is around 90 square meters. 41 and 1/3 nails per square meter comes out to 3720 nails.
It is not hard to imagine 50% of these going away with the rest of the demoliton. So I think we are safe to at least double the amount of nails. So 3720 nails * 2 is 7440 nails.
Assuming another 10% are simply missed or corroded into oblivion from the 3720 left in the ground and you have 7440 + 372 so 7812.
Considering, after looking up sources that houses in 1880 were nearly half the size they are now and it is not inconceiveable to think that the amount of nails found fall within half of the amount of modern day nails it takes to build a house, so between 15000 and 20000 /2
So the low end 15000 / 2 is 7500, below the amount of nails estimated.
Does this seem to make sense? Or does it sound like total bullcrap?
but they're listening to every word I say
First I take a solid number, then I wave my magic wand, then bam! new number!
Its science because I said so!
I guess it is what I have to work with.
but they're listening to every word I say
I think of it even in modern terms -- many houses that people own are in the range of 1200-2000 sq ft. Bigger than that starts qualifying as luxury. Yet the overall size of a house hasn't changed -- separate bedrooms, separate kitchen, eating area, etc. So the houses aren't going to get a whole lot smaller than a "small" house nowadays -- around 1200-1300 square feet or so. So your bounds are pretty regular.