So what if the plane crashes, don't interrupt my song!

i n c u b u s

What I'm about to discuss is very relevant to this strip. I just got back from and extremely long roundtrip flight and I have a few questions/concerns. First being that do ipods and electronics (besides cell phones and laptops) really screw anything up during take off? And if so why doesn't it do anything in the air? Yea they told me to shut off my ipod on all six flights going there and coming back but did I? No. Honestly if I'm getting into my song or music at the time of landing I really dont want to put it away. I'm just saying it tweaked my nerves a lil bit. Honestly I think the flight crew just demand that of people just to get them to actually listen to what they have to say on board.

Another thing is that a really wierd coincidence happened while in the ATL airport. I was in the air on my way there watching some tv on the headrests (which was really awesome btw) and I thought to myself "I wonder why they havent made internet access available on flights yet. I mean why not?" Besides the fact that privacy is not an option if you'd surf on a plane, I think it'd be a great idea to stream a lil WIFI mid-air. Here comes my point: When I landed in ATL I was watching some CNN during my lay over when just as I had thought not an hour earlier, they announced that Delta will have internet access during flight through some connection called GoGO by summer next year. Apparently there are already some guidelines and rules for such used already up on there website *cough*no porn*cough* but my point is I totally called it an hour earlier. Funny.

EDIT: To everyone that responded to my Guitar Hero DS suggestion thread last week thanks a bunch! I decided not to play it onboard because I would be pissed as hell if some kid played that right next to me but I did get to play it alot during layovers. Honestly the game is OK but I have how the buttons feel. I oftenhad to reboot because my hand would knock it out of the cartridge slot.

Thanatos

If electronic devices really screwed anything up during takeoff/landing, the terrorists would just smuggle a bunch of game boys onto planes and leave them on (not to mention the fact that a lot of cell phones simply don't turn off unless you physically remove the battery).

DeShadowC

I could be completely wrong since its been years, but mythbusters did something and found it messed with some of the communications equipment planes use.

i n c u b u s

Yea I figured that much, but I was under the impression that cell phones do something to the nav system. I don't know anything about that sort of thing.

Monolithic_Dome

I once walked up to a pay-for-internet terminal at DFW and noticed that someone had AIM up, which was pretty neat, getting to chat for free.

Then I stuck a thumb drive in the little "this is for your files" slot and bam, folder pops up and I've got SSH, IM, whatever. I think they only have a proxy set for http. real smart guys.

Anyway, the Mythbusters did an episode on the electronic devices thing, and its basically a load of hooey. Neither cell phones nor wifi fuck with the airplane. I've heard that cell phones fuck with the ground network if they are moving between nodes so fast, but that could have also been bullshit.

The best explanation I read in a magazine somewhere: Take off and landing are the most turbulent parts of the flight, and they don't want your ipod to get lodged in some kid's cranium.

EDIT: whoa totally did not remember That episode right.

RUNN1NGMAN

I think different frequencies are used for communications between ground control and air traffic control (you only need line-of-sight comms similar to CB/VHF on the ground, right?) It's probably easier to just ban everything that might interfere, for simplicity's sake at least. I know if I was a pilot and I heard the same noise over my headset that I hear on my car's speakers whenever my phone rings, I'd probably flip my shit.

Some stuff probably interferes, some stuff probably doesn't, but it's a lot easier for everyone to just turn everything off

On your second point, you're a day late... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/05/AR2008080501793.html

Ruckus

There are a couple of reasons why they have the whole please turn off your shit rule

1. Federal Aviation laws in both the US and Canada, and most other countries, require that the flight crew run their little safety display, and you are required to listen.

2. All electronics emit some EM interference, usually at levels too low to cause trouble with any other electronics, but when the safety of 100+ passengers and crew are concerned, they takes no chances. It's the same reason they have the No Cellphones sign at some fueling stations. It's a remote chance of trouble, but an easily avoidable circumstance non-the-less.

Now, the reason they generally only apply the rule at takeoff and landing is for the reason in #1, and also, as my Pilot Ex-Roommate put it: "Flying is really fucking easy. It's taking off and landing that are the tough part."

-Phil-

DeShadowC wrote: »

I could be completely wrong since its been years, but mythbusters did something and found it messed with some of the communications equipment planes use.

Im pretty sure that it had no effect on the instruments.

Edit: Link confirming
Link

DeShadowC

-Phil- wrote: »

DeShadowC wrote: »

I could be completely wrong since its been years, but mythbusters did something and found it messed with some of the communications equipment planes use.

Im pretty sure that it had no effect on the instruments.

Edit: Link confirming
Link

Yeah thats why I said its been a long time since I saw that episode. So basically it affects the equipment but its shielded enough to where it won't.

Improvolone

It's the better safe than sorry approach.

Djeet

In hospitals I remember they used to tell you that you couldn't use your cell phones because it will interfere with sensitive equipment. But when we had our baby earlier this year, not only were cell phones OK, but there was free WIFI, with access points installed in the ceiling every 100-200 ft (antennae pointing down). I'm not sure if the ICU units are shielded, and the real sensitive diagnostic equipment (radiology) is always in the basement where there are thick concrete walls.

<Anecdotal>
Once when flying on a domestic flight (we're at cruising altitude) a voice came on the PA and said (in an irritated voice) "This is the Captain speaking, turn off your Blackberries; it's interfering with our equipment." Could've been BS, but I'm glad I didn't have a BB on.

Arch Guru XX

My understanding is that there is an absolute miniscule change that your ipod would cause enough interference to bring down a plane during takeoff or landing. But it isn't NO chance, so I tend to figure that I can survive 20 minutes without the song I'm listening to (even if I'm really into it) to be certain that whatever microscopic chance exists is eliminated. I'd be mighty pissed if a plane I or a loved one was on did end up crashing because someone thought the risk-reward situation made keeping their iPod on worth it. You could probably fly twice a day for 100 years and never turn off your iPod without anything happening, but you'd sure feel like a tard if something did happen.

Also there's the fact that the airlines and TSA take this stuff seriously - despite my personal opinion that most airlines deserve to go out of business and that the TSA should go die in a fire, I prefer to appear as a fully compliant passenger in order to eliminate any risk of having some dude grope my prostate as I'm processed into Guantanamo.

Comahawk

Arch Guru XX wrote: »

My understanding is that there is an absolute miniscule change that your ipod would cause enough interference to bring down a plane during takeoff or landing. But it isn't NO chance, so I tend to figure that I can survive 20 minutes without the song I'm listening to (even if I'm really into it) to be certain that whatever microscopic chance exists is eliminated. I'd be mighty pissed if a plane I or a loved one was on did end up crashing because someone thought the risk-reward situation made keeping their iPod on worth it. You could probably fly twice a day for 100 years and never turn off your iPod without anything happening, but you'd sure feel like a tard if something did happen.

Also there's the fact that the airlines and TSA take this stuff seriously - despite my personal opinion that most airlines deserve to go out of business and that the TSA should go die in a fire, I prefer to appear as a fully compliant passenger in order to eliminate any risk of having some dude grope my prostate as I'm processed into Guantanamo.

This is basically it. Take off lasts like 10-20 minutes depending on what is happening, same with landing. Are you really going to be that much of a selfish prick that you will not turn off your iPod? It's a song for fucks sake and you can always listen to it once takeoff/landing is done with, don't be a douche bag.

If you don't like the rules with flying, find another way to travel.

vonPoonBurGer

Djeet wrote: »

In hospitals I remember they used to tell you that you couldn't use your cell phones because it will interfere with sensitive equipment. But when we had our baby earlier this year, not only were cell phones OK, but there was free WIFI, with access points installed in the ceiling every 100-200 ft (antennae pointing down). I'm not sure if the ICU units are shielded, and the real sensitive diagnostic equipment (radiology) is always in the basement where there are thick concrete walls.

Yeah, Radiology is where you'll see the "NO CELL PHONES" signs. I used to work for a medical imaging software vendor, and it was sometimes hard to get a hold of a field tech working near the bigger imaging units (CT, MRI, or NucMed) because they had to surrender their cell phone. I'm not sure about the other ones, but in the case of MRI it's because the magnets in those things are no joke, they will take the phone right out of your hand if it has enough ferromagnetic metal inside it. Worse still, if you can't pry the phone off the magnet housing, chances are they'd have to call in the vendor to dump liquid helium from the unit to ramp the down the magnet, and that's an expensive process.

Djeet wrote: »

<Anecdotal>
Once when flying on a domestic flight (we're at cruising altitude) a voice came on the PA and said (in an irritated voice) "This is the Captain speaking, turn off your Blackberries; it's interfering with our equipment." Could've been BS, but I'm glad I didn't have a BB on.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that sometimes, some wireless devices can get picked up by the plane's comms equipment as static or squawking noises. Unlikely to crash the plane, but probably a hell of an annoyance if you're trying to talk to air traffic controllers. Alternately, they may have some kind of detector that blinks a light on his console when someone tries to do something wireless, and he's responding to that flashing light.

grungebox

From what I understand it has more to do with making sure people are paying attention in the event of an emergency during landing or taking off than with any electronic interference. Those are the times when people need to pay the most attention.

tsmvengy

The reason for the rule is twofold:

1. There is I believe an extremely small chance that some kind of EM radiation could screw things up.

2. The real reason is that most of the problems that happen on aircraft happen during takeoff and landing. If something does happen and you need to evacuate, the last thing that the flight attendants want to deal with are laptops/ipods and crap getting thrown around the cabin.

Gihgehls

You know how your cell phone makes your computer speakers go crazy? You don't want that happening to the avionics in the plane.

It doesn't matter that the plane is shielded well-enough, because FAA regs are extremely slow to change. They probably won't change that law until in-body implanted cell phones become commonplace.

Doc

If electronic devices really messed with communications equipment, do you think they would let them in the passenger cabin? They don't let you bring water through security, and they x-ray your shoes.

Tach

There's a difference in using an Ipod, or a DS or somesuch, and using a Blackberry. A cellphone or PDA's signal can interfere with the plane's insturments, to the point that it could be dangerous unless the plane in question is specifically designed to protect those insturments- which is happening.

Ipods, DS handhelds, and other personal electronics are minimally interfering, but imagine if everyone on the plane has one- suddenly it's not so minimal.

Gihgehls

Doc wrote: »

If electronic devices really messed with communications equipment, do you think they would let them in the passenger cabin? They don't let you bring water through security, and they x-ray your shoes.

They really do mess with the equipment, but the result is not a crashed plane, just really annoyed pilots and ground crew.

Limp moose

Hi! I'm a pilot.

The reason you can't have portable electronic devices on board your aircraft is this.

The FAA publishes a list of regulations called the FAR (Federal Aviation Regulations) These are like the bible of flight rules. They are written by lawyers and designed to govern all flying in the united states. All pilots and airlines must abide by these rules. There are LOTS of rules. The main bulk of them as they apply to you and me is part 91.

Now Far part 91.21 governs the use of portable electronic devices. I will quote it for you here then explain.

(a) except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S. -registered civil aircraft:
(1) aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to
(1) portable voice recorders
(2) Hearing aides
(3) Heart Pacemakers
(4) electric shavers
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

Wow that is a lot of shit right there. Here is what it means. If you are flying on a plane that is an air carrier (all commercial and private airlines As well as anyone that carriers passengers for hire as a business) IE anything you guys are going to fly on. You cant use those devices Unless the owner/operator/pilot says its ok. So there fore what ever the stewardess says is law. Thats also why if the stewardess tells you to turn off your Iphone even if its in airplane mode you have to do it or face jail. Because they are the representative of the operator and they get to make the rules on the plane.

The FAR regulations are not very flexible.

The airlines dont want you talking on them for all the reasons listed above in other posts. But the real reason is this regulation. For example when I fly my own plane I regularly use a cell phone and take buddies who talk on the phone. But I am not an operator or an air carrier so its ok 8) The bit about IFR doesnt apply to the because (b) exempts (a) if the airline wants it to.

AresProphet

Doc wrote: »

If electronic devices really messed with communications equipment, do you think they would let them in the passenger cabin? They don't let you bring water through security, and they x-ray your shoes.

I can imagine how many people would be utterly pissed that they couldn't bring an iPod/DS/laptop/[insert-timewasting-device-here] along for an hours-long flight. Particularly international, 8+ hour flights.

I mean its obvious that they won't crash planes or yeah they'd be banned, but maybe there are real cases of minor interference occuring and its just not worth pissing off 90% of your passengers to circumvent it. Instead you just ask them to turn their devices off during the important parts of the flight.

Airlines are in enough financial trouble as it is, they don't want people deciding not to fly because they have to put their laptops through checked luggage. I sure as fuck wouldn't want anything more expensive than an electric shaver getting checked.

Limp moose

Oh and just for fun and because i had the page up anyway. Here is the regulation about drunks on planes.

"(b) Except in an emergency no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except medical patient under proper care) to be carried in that aircraft"

So you can get wasted on the plane but not before you get on it. Unless you do not appear or demonstrate that you are intoxicated!

Also just FYI here is the reg about interfering with the crew, and why you get in deep poop for arguing with stewardesses

"No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crew member in the performance of the crew members duties aboard an aircraft being operated. "

Since that is a Federal Regulation and the law prohibits you breaking those you are not even allowed to ARGUE with a flight attendant. Pretty awful I think. But thems the rules.

Limp moose

These are FAA regulations by the way. Not the commercial airlines. They have no choice but to follow these. So dont blame them for their awfulness Some things at least are not their fault.

The regulation however does keep you safe. It is pretty damn rare that those things crash or people get hurt.

RUNN1NGMAN

Limp moose wrote: »

Oh and just for fun and because i had the page up anyway. Here is the regulation about drunks on planes.

"(b) Except in an emergency no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except medical patient under proper care) to be carried in that aircraft"

So you can get wasted on the plane but not before you get on it. Unless you do not appear or demonstrate that you are intoxicated!

Also just FYI here is the reg about interfering with the crew, and why you get in deep poop for arguing with stewardesses

"No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crew member in the performance of the crew members duties aboard an aircraft being operated. "

Since that is a Federal Regulation and the law prohibits you breaking those you are not even allowed to ARGUE with a flight attendant. Pretty awful I think. But thems the rules.

I for one welcome it. At least there's one place on earth (or above it) where being a complete dick to the staff is actually illegal.

Premier kakos

Interference from cell phones is really not a problem on modern aircraft with modern cell phones. There's been a lot of push to revamp the rules to allow it, but there are a few interesting people lobbying against it. Most notably is the telcos themselves. Your cell phone provider doesn't want you to use a cell phone on an airplane. The reason they don't want you to use it is because when you're at cruising altitude, your phone can see literally hundreds of cell towers and will try to negotiate with all of them. That puts a lot of stress on the system. In addition, the plane is moving so fast, that your phone will constantly be leaving some cells and entering all new ones; again, this puts an incredible strain on the network.

Doc

Limp moose wrote: »

These are FAA regulations by the way. Not the commercial airlines. They have no choice but to follow these. So dont blame them for their awfulness Some things at least are not their fault.

The regulation however does keep you safe. It is pretty damn rare that those things crash or people get hurt.

Who do you think lobbies to keep these rules in place?

Limp moose

you would be surprised what it takes to get those rules changed.

Its not so much who lobbies to keep them in place but who DOESN't lobby to have them changed.

ProPatriaMori

Gihgehls wrote: »

Doc wrote: »

If electronic devices really messed with communications equipment, do you think they would let them in the passenger cabin? They don't let you bring water through security, and they x-ray your shoes.

They really do mess with the equipment, but the result is not a crashed plane, just really annoyed pilots and ground crew.

Just wanted to say that I am a pilot, and the Cessna 310 was especially bad about picking up the cell phones changing towers and stuff. I actually shut mine off while in the landing pattern once because it started doing that...instructor wasn't thrilled with my timing, but oh well. Wasn't a hazard to safety of operation.

Still, yeah, it's like just about any RF-emitting device. Sometimes it does indeed mess with anything that has a wiring harness of antenna, but the interference usually isn't terrible.