Factory farming is bad for the environment and cruel to the animals living through it?
Shock.
And now I'm going to quote you quoting that so the useless comment has been made yet again. And this without even commenting on the fact that "factory farming" wasn't the target of my aim, but rather the whole idea of eating meat as meat is very bad for the enviroment. Has anybody mentioned Peter Singer yet? Because, you know, eating only vegetables would seriously improve both health for the individual and address the whole greenhouse gases-problem. Of course, this isn't applicable for everybody on the whole fricking earth, but basically all of us dirty cunts in the west should switch to a vegetarian diet.
Factory farming is bad for the environment and cruel to the animals living through it?
Shock.
And now I'm going to quote you quoting that so the useless comment has been made yet again. And this without even commenting on the fact that "factory farming" wasn't the target of my aim, but rather the whole idea of eating meat as meat is very bad for the enviroment. Has anybody mentioned Peter Singer yet? Because, you know, eating only vegetables would seriously improve both health for the individual and address the whole greenhouse gases-problem. Of course, this isn't applicable for everybody on the whole fricking earth, but basically all of us dirty cunts in the west should switch to a vegetarian diet.
So someone should tell the wildlife to stop eating each other?
It's not the meat that's the problem it's how it's processed.
Well, its also how much is processed and our expectations of price. Its far more practical to suggest that most people leading sedentary lifestyles go back to meat a few times a week instead of a few times a day. You don't actually need all that much protein to maintain yourself, you only need lots to build up muscle.
The only time I eat meat more than once a day, if at all during a day is if we have left over hamburgers, or if I get a fast food craving. I don't see how people could eat meat all day every day really.
And now I'm going to quote you quoting that so the useless comment has been made yet again. And this without even commenting on the fact that "factory farming" wasn't the target of my aim, but rather the whole idea of eating meat as meat is very bad for the enviroment. Has anybody mentioned Peter Singer yet? Because, you know, eating only vegetables would seriously improve both health for the individual and address the whole greenhouse gases-problem. Of course, this isn't applicable for everybody on the whole fricking earth, but basically all of us dirty cunts in the west should switch to a vegetarian diet.
This is an important difference to note. I'm all for meat occasionally existing in our diets. Through organically grown humane methods. Animals for food can be raised without harming the environment. Sadly, this would require most Americans to actually cut back on meat in their diets which causes a freakish back lash among most.
Quid on
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Everyone going veg isn't the answer. Everyone eating less meat is and cutting out red meat as much as possible is. Local is better, and not just because it's more environmentally friendly, but because it is much tastier murder.
The fundamental problem is the same here as it is for pretty much every industry in the U.S.: we've created an incentive to break the law.
We need to do a ground-up re-evaluation of pretty much every regulation on the books, and we need to set the fines based not on something arbitrary, but the following:
1.5*X*1/Y=Z
Where Z is the fine, X is the amount of money that can be saved by violating the regulation, and Y is the percentage of violations we estimate we'll catch.
Not a bad idea at all. Where I work right now we prosecute people for violating city by-laws, and a lot of them are environmental. For example, if someone cuts down a tree they weren't suppose to, they'll be fined and required to pay into the city's tree-planting fund and literally purchase two or three additional trees to replace the one they destroyed. A system that similarly mandates the company to not just pay a fine, but actually pay to fix the problem could work too.
But another thought occured to me while reading the article - the importance of targetting the directors and officers rather than just the corporation (especially since U.S. tax policies are fucked up, with high corporate taxes and low income taxes when it should be the other way around).
Make it work like demerit points on your driver's licence. If you're the officer or director of a corporation that ran afoul of the EPA, your income tax rate just got bumped up several of percentage points, or you're going to lose the use of certain deductions. Considering how much they kick and scream for income tax cuts in the first place, apparently this might be a penalty that actually stings. Keep your nose clean and these penalties might expire in five years.
This sounds like an ideal situation for installing a TDP plant adjacent to the plants. Lessens the smell, sterilizes the shit, churns out cheap energy.
And now I'm going to quote you quoting that so the useless comment has been made yet again. And this without even commenting on the fact that "factory farming" wasn't the target of my aim, but rather the whole idea of eating meat as meat is very bad for the enviroment. Has anybody mentioned Peter Singer yet? Because, you know, eating only vegetables would seriously improve both health for the individual and address the whole greenhouse gases-problem. Of course, this isn't applicable for everybody on the whole fricking earth, but basically all of us dirty cunts in the west should switch to a vegetarian diet.
Actually, the environmentally healthiest diet is largely vegetarian, with a serving or two of meat per day.
See, while it takes more land/food to get meat than it does to get vegetables, growing some grasses and having animals graze on it is a good thing, and can be done on land that can't be used for growing human foods.
This sounds like an ideal situation for installing a TDP plant adjacent to the plants. Lessens the smell, sterilizes the shit, churns out cheap energy.
This sounds like an ideal situation for installing a TDP plant adjacent to the plants. Lessens the smell, sterilizes the shit, churns out cheap energy.
I'm glad I ate dinner before perusing this post, or else I probably would have lost my appetite. I am also glad that I don't really like pork products of any kind, and thus rarely consume them.
I'm fairly ignorant of the inner workings of the meat industry. How does the situation outlined in the article compare to beef? Is it on par with or worse than what you'd see with cows? (or better than? I certainly hope not).
I don't think cows produce as much excrement as pigs do, so the lagoon thing probably isn't as severe, but I doubt the factory farming situation is much prettier. There's just too many people eating too much meat in this country for cleaner alternatives to be profitable, seems like.
Do Americans really eat that much more meat than other countries? I never realized.
Yeah, it came as a surprise to me too, but apparently compared to other First World nations our meat consumption is significantly higher. Unfortunately trying to dig up hard data just brings me to lunatic fringe vegan sites.
"One personal act that can have a profound impact on these issues is reducing meat consumption. To produce 1 pound of feedlot beef requires about 2,400 gallons of water and 7 pounds of grain (42). Considering that the average American consumes 97 pounds of beef (and 273 pounds of meat in all) each year, even modest reductions in meat consumption in such a culture would substantially reduce the burden on our natural resources."
Thinking about that on a day-to-day thing, that's about a quarter-pounder every day of the year (~97 / 365 = .26) of JUST BEEF ALONE.
According to the Human Society, which have slightly different statistics than wiki, the average American consumes 222lbs of meat every year. Christfuck that's like three quarter pounders every day. I mean, I realized that some people go to McD's for every meal, but I didn't think it was honestly the average American that did that sort of eating.
I've been vegetarian for 3 years solely because of the environmental impact of meat consumption. I can't even imagine eating that much meat.
I have been a vegetarian since I was just a toddler, and threads like this reaffirm my choice =d
meat just always creeped me out, ever since I was a wee babe. Other people can do what they want, but I'll have none of this.
The sad truth of the matter is discussed early in the article. The company couldn't turn a profit if it was environmentally responsible. In other words, there simply is too much demand for meat for the supply to meet it at reasonable prices with sustainable practices.
these plants should be located in the middle of nowhere, like nuclear power plants and other dangerous facilities...
DiscoZombie on
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
I'm glad I ate dinner before perusing this post, or else I probably would have lost my appetite. I am also glad that I don't really like pork products of any kind, and thus rarely consume them.
I'm fairly ignorant of the inner workings of the meat industry. How does the situation outlined in the article compare to beef? Is it on par with or worse than what you'd see with cows? (or better than? I certainly hope not).
I don't think cows produce as much excrement as pigs do, so the lagoon thing probably isn't as severe, but I doubt the factory farming situation is much prettier. There's just too many people eating too much meat in this country for cleaner alternatives to be profitable, seems like.
Do Americans really eat that much more meat than other countries? I never realized.
Yeah, it came as a surprise to me too, but apparently compared to other First World nations our meat consumption is significantly higher. Unfortunately trying to dig up hard data just brings me to lunatic fringe vegan sites.
"One personal act that can have a profound impact on these issues is reducing meat consumption. To produce 1 pound of feedlot beef requires about 2,400 gallons of water and 7 pounds of grain (42). Considering that the average American consumes 97 pounds of beef (and 273 pounds of meat in all) each year, even modest reductions in meat consumption in such a culture would substantially reduce the burden on our natural resources."
Thinking about that on a day-to-day thing, that's about a quarter-pounder every day of the year (~97 / 365 = .26) of JUST BEEF ALONE.
According to the Human Society, which have slightly different statistics than wiki, the average American consumes 222lbs of meat every year. Christfuck that's like three quarter pounders every day. I mean, I realized that some people go to McD's for every meal, but I didn't think it was honestly the average American that did that sort of eating.
I've been vegetarian for 3 years solely because of the environmental impact of meat consumption. I can't even imagine eating that much meat.
I think a lot of you are failing to take into account exactly how fucking abhorrently disgusting and gluttonous true "southern" cooking is. When my mother was last in SC her friends took her to "the best hamburger place EVAR!!!1!1!" The burger patty was batter dipped and deep-fried in lard. It was served with a side order of fried chicken. Her friend ordered for himself a full rack of ribs and a chicken-fried steak.
Needless to say she took a few bites of her meal and nearly threw up.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
This sounds like an ideal situation for installing a TDP plant adjacent to the plants. Lessens the smell, sterilizes the shit, churns out cheap energy.
It actually is. Although I bet maintenance of the plant and the operator's necessary safety gear would eat into the profit margin somewhat more than in the case of a plant chewing through supermarket waste.
Honestly, while I read this, I was wondering how hard it would be to blow up these facilities. Can't be too difficult, can it?
P.S. I am in no way insinuating that I plan to or have blown up a Smithfield pig slaughter house.
Even if you blew up the stockhouses, the lagoons would remain. Unless you're planning to drink it all.
I'd like you to roll that image around in your head for a bit. Stick a Crazy Straw into the surface, watch the gentle ripples of fungus on its skin...
It really has more to do with my seething rage towards heartless monsters and their unstoppable companies. I honestly have no qualms with corporate terrorism.
Zombiemambo on
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
Honestly, while I read this, I was wondering how hard it would be to blow up these facilities. Can't be too difficult, can it?
P.S. I am in no way insinuating that I plan to or have blown up a Smithfield pig slaughter house.
Even if you blew up the stockhouses, the lagoons would remain. Unless you're planning to drink it all.
I'd like you to roll that image around in your head for a bit. Stick a Crazy Straw into the surface, watch the gentle ripples of fungus on its skin...
It really has more to do with my seething rage towards heartless monsters and their unstoppable companies. I honestly have no qualms with corporate terrorism.
Pretty much. A lot of the wackjobs are pretty misdirected, like burning Hummer dealerships to save the environment, but kidnapping the CEO of this company in your hybrid Civic and torturing him with free trade, organic Africanized bees in the face and genitals gets your point across just fine.
Pretty much. A lot of the wackjobs are pretty misdirected, like burning Hummer dealerships to save the environment, but kidnapping the CEO of this company in your hybrid Civic and torturing him with free trade, organic Africanized bees in the face and genitals gets your point across just fine.
TDP would be a great solution here, however of course the companies won't build it since its too high risk an issue. Lets say they could make some kind of fuel oil at 80 dollars a barrel, right now that looks good, but for the exact same reason that noone will build a coal to oil plant its not worth the risk of investment.
In the 70s people thought they would build these plants, and then the oil price went back down and they all lost their shirts, nowadays companies want price guarantees before they will build and even though the price guaruntee they want is about half the current market level noone in government actually believes the market level is real enough at its current price to do so.
Still, in this situation it might be worth treating pig farming like the nuclear industry. You are responsible for operation and cleanup, so although you might not be able to guaruntee a good profitable price for your poo oil, its still worth making it just to clean it up.
tbloxham on
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Reading that article was like reading Upton Sinclair's The Jungle all over again. The fact that people have lost their lives in such a horrid way is atrocious. I lament what a horrible industry this is because I love ham, bacon, chops, and tenderloin. I can't help it they're so good!
Still, in this situation it might be worth treating pig farming like the nuclear industry. You are responsible for operation and cleanup, so although you might not be able to guaruntee a good profitable price for your poo oil, its still worth making it just to clean it up.
The real question about this kind of stuff isn't how to best deal with it, but rather how to get anything passed to deal with it. The pork lobby is massive and very entrenched, and they will throw around that weight to cockblock anything that prevents them from going about their merry ways. Personally, I think public awareness of the harmfulness of what they are doing needs to be raised as the first step to ousting some of these practices. Although, what to do with all the current lagoons in certain areas poses an interesting question. (Here in eastern NC there are quite a few..)
TDP would be a great solution here, however of course the companies won't build it since its too high risk an issue. Lets say they could make some kind of fuel oil at 80 dollars a barrel, right now that looks good, but for the exact same reason that noone will build a coal to oil plant its not worth the risk of investment.
In the 70s people thought they would build these plants, and then the oil price went back down and they all lost their shirts, nowadays companies want price guarantees before they will build and even though the price guaruntee they want is about half the current market level noone in government actually believes the market level is real enough at its current price to do so.
Still, in this situation it might be worth treating pig farming like the nuclear industry. You are responsible for operation and cleanup, so although you might not be able to guaruntee a good profitable price for your poo oil, its still worth making it just to clean it up.
Exactly. Even if they ran it at a loss it would still probably save them more money than the EPA fines and the cost of filling and maintaining the lagoons.
How did this thread get so far without mentioning Michael Pollan?
America has created this giant industrial farm machine that churns out cheap meat for everyone but the process is destroying our health and our natural resources. The big question is is how do we get others to realize this before it's too late and we have nothing but pig shit?
How did this thread get so far without mentioning Michael Pollan?
America has created this giant industrial farm machine that churns out cheap meat for everyone but the process is destroying our health and our natural resources. The big question is is how do we get others to realize this before it's too late and we have nothing but pig shit?
Well hell, the first large scale drug-resistant E. coli epidemic oughta kick something off.
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
How did this thread get so far without mentioning Michael Pollan?
America has created this giant industrial farm machine that churns out cheap meat for everyone but the process is destroying our health and our natural resources. The big question is is how do we get others to realize this before it's too late and we have nothing but pig shit?
Well hell, the first large scale drug-resistant E. coli epidemic oughta kick something off.
Lots of pooping and a few deaths from people too dumb to drink a lot of water while they have diarrhea or too old to resist won't do much.
But that is a good question, tofu. I'm not really sure what the answer is.
Posts
And now I'm going to quote you quoting that so the useless comment has been made yet again. And this without even commenting on the fact that "factory farming" wasn't the target of my aim, but rather the whole idea of eating meat as meat is very bad for the enviroment. Has anybody mentioned Peter Singer yet? Because, you know, eating only vegetables would seriously improve both health for the individual and address the whole greenhouse gases-problem. Of course, this isn't applicable for everybody on the whole fricking earth, but basically all of us dirty cunts in the west should switch to a vegetarian diet.
So someone should tell the wildlife to stop eating each other?
It's not the meat that's the problem it's how it's processed.
Handmade Jewelry by me on EtsyGames for sale
Me on Twitch!
Handmade Jewelry by me on EtsyGames for sale
Me on Twitch!
Edited so that second sentence had a verb clause.
But another thought occured to me while reading the article - the importance of targetting the directors and officers rather than just the corporation (especially since U.S. tax policies are fucked up, with high corporate taxes and low income taxes when it should be the other way around).
Make it work like demerit points on your driver's licence. If you're the officer or director of a corporation that ran afoul of the EPA, your income tax rate just got bumped up several of percentage points, or you're going to lose the use of certain deductions. Considering how much they kick and scream for income tax cuts in the first place, apparently this might be a penalty that actually stings. Keep your nose clean and these penalties might expire in five years.
See, while it takes more land/food to get meat than it does to get vegetables, growing some grasses and having animals graze on it is a good thing, and can be done on land that can't be used for growing human foods.
No wonder you're so bitter and angry :P
Couldn't all this excrement be used as fertiliser?
He's just not digging it enough.
I think it's made too toxic by the pigs' processing. It'd kill the land instead of fertilizing it.
Thanks, I completely forgot about all the growth hormones, drugs and suchlike that they use in factory farming.
According to the Wikipedia "Environmental vegetarianism" page,
"One personal act that can have a profound impact on these issues is reducing meat consumption. To produce 1 pound of feedlot beef requires about 2,400 gallons of water and 7 pounds of grain (42). Considering that the average American consumes 97 pounds of beef (and 273 pounds of meat in all) each year, even modest reductions in meat consumption in such a culture would substantially reduce the burden on our natural resources."
Thinking about that on a day-to-day thing, that's about a quarter-pounder every day of the year (~97 / 365 = .26) of JUST BEEF ALONE.
According to the Human Society, which have slightly different statistics than wiki, the average American consumes 222lbs of meat every year. Christfuck that's like three quarter pounders every day. I mean, I realized that some people go to McD's for every meal, but I didn't think it was honestly the average American that did that sort of eating.
I've been vegetarian for 3 years solely because of the environmental impact of meat consumption. I can't even imagine eating that much meat.
meat just always creeped me out, ever since I was a wee babe. Other people can do what they want, but I'll have none of this.
The sad truth of the matter is discussed early in the article. The company couldn't turn a profit if it was environmentally responsible. In other words, there simply is too much demand for meat for the supply to meet it at reasonable prices with sustainable practices.
these plants should be located in the middle of nowhere, like nuclear power plants and other dangerous facilities...
I think a lot of you are failing to take into account exactly how fucking abhorrently disgusting and gluttonous true "southern" cooking is. When my mother was last in SC her friends took her to "the best hamburger place EVAR!!!1!1!" The burger patty was batter dipped and deep-fried in lard. It was served with a side order of fried chicken. Her friend ordered for himself a full rack of ribs and a chicken-fried steak.
Needless to say she took a few bites of her meal and nearly threw up.
It actually is. Although I bet maintenance of the plant and the operator's necessary safety gear would eat into the profit margin somewhat more than in the case of a plant chewing through supermarket waste.
It really has more to do with my seething rage towards heartless monsters and their unstoppable companies. I honestly have no qualms with corporate terrorism.
Pretty much. A lot of the wackjobs are pretty misdirected, like burning Hummer dealerships to save the environment, but kidnapping the CEO of this company in your hybrid Civic and torturing him with free trade, organic Africanized bees in the face and genitals gets your point across just fine.
I know Chicken and Beef farming is probably almost as bad though.
I think I'll just have pasta tonight.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Pasta is the bomb.
Yeah, environmentalists need to Geass Harder.
In the 70s people thought they would build these plants, and then the oil price went back down and they all lost their shirts, nowadays companies want price guarantees before they will build and even though the price guaruntee they want is about half the current market level noone in government actually believes the market level is real enough at its current price to do so.
Still, in this situation it might be worth treating pig farming like the nuclear industry. You are responsible for operation and cleanup, so although you might not be able to guaruntee a good profitable price for your poo oil, its still worth making it just to clean it up.
Shogun Streams Vidya
Bet something would change right quick.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
The real question about this kind of stuff isn't how to best deal with it, but rather how to get anything passed to deal with it. The pork lobby is massive and very entrenched, and they will throw around that weight to cockblock anything that prevents them from going about their merry ways. Personally, I think public awareness of the harmfulness of what they are doing needs to be raised as the first step to ousting some of these practices. Although, what to do with all the current lagoons in certain areas poses an interesting question. (Here in eastern NC there are quite a few..)
Steam: Drokmir
Terrorist!
America has created this giant industrial farm machine that churns out cheap meat for everyone but the process is destroying our health and our natural resources. The big question is is how do we get others to realize this before it's too late and we have nothing but pig shit?
Well hell, the first large scale drug-resistant E. coli epidemic oughta kick something off.
Lots of pooping and a few deaths from people too dumb to drink a lot of water while they have diarrhea or too old to resist won't do much.
But that is a good question, tofu. I'm not really sure what the answer is.