Educate me on surround sound...

Nakatomi2010

So, as I mentioned in the other thread, I just got FiOS, which has given a rather visually stimulating experience, however it seems to be audibly lacking a bit for me...

My current surround sound system is a standard 5.1 surround sound system which was bought back in '04, which to me seems a bit dated....

I work for Circuit City so getting my hands on nifty stuff shouldn't be too hard, I'm purely after understanding what makes the audio better...


I have an HDTV, my HTPC and DVR both hook up to my TV using HDMI cables, my understanding is that there are surround receivers with HDMI connects which pass video on to the TV and such...

Basically I have a basic understanding of things, but beyond that I know nothing else... So, what's more important, speakers or receivers, cable size....


Yes I could research online, but I'm an idiot when it comes to audio, and I'd like someone with slightly more experience to dumb it down in an educational manner and such please...

AbsoluteZero

Well I can tell you some basic things. For one, you do NOT want those dinky little speakers that come with all-in-one home theater packages.

For two, 5.1 is fine and you won't find a whole ton of media in anything higher than that anyways. Having your surround sound set up correctly will make a huge difference. There should be a manual that came with your audio system. Otherwise you can look it up on the interwebs.

Improvolone

Wire- You can use lamp wire for speakers. As long as it's not coroded or unsafe in another way, wire is wire for your speakers.
As a general home theatre note, always use the connection you can. Hopefully this is HDMI for sheer ease of use. There are other good connections, but HDMI is just so damned handy.
Working at Circuit City does not mean you will get the best prices. You might, but not always.
Do some reading on features that different receivers have, figure out what you need/want it to do.

Here is where we can really help you, what receiver do you have now? Are you worried that it's old and needs to be replaced, or does it not do something you want it to do?

Rigor Mortis

Rule of thumb #1 - Avoid Bose and anything imitating Bose.

Rule of thumb #2 - bigger = better. With the trends these days, you have to be aware of this. Small satellites and subs can't produce the proper frequency range they should, and you end up with poor sound and poor positioning.

Look for a system with tweeters and woofers in the satellite and a subwoofer. Another rule of thumb I've noticed - ideally the subwoofer will be more than 8 inches with a frequency response from somewhere in the 20-40Hz range up to 80Hzish and the woofers will be 4 inches or more with a response from where the subwoofer leaves off to 20Khz. (If the sub goes above 80, surround positioning will weaken.)

Also look for a good rating on frequency reproduction. This is rated as plus/minus in decibels. Decent speakers will be plus/minus less than 3 decibels. 1.5 is what you would get in pro audio.

Look at THD as well (Total Harmonic Distortion) .5% or less is what you ideally want because then the distortion is inaudible to the human ear.

Do NOT make wattage your primary concern, ever. Watts are a huge red herring in sound. It's not the watts, its the watts relative to the speaker's sensitivity. Not only that, a doubling in power will produce a 3dB increase in volume. This is nothing. This is the smallest audible increase. A 200 watt amp driving a speaker with a 88dB SPL will be quieter than a 20 watt amp driving a speaker with a 100dB SPL.

THX certification is useful if you're mainly watching movies, since it maintains the studio mix properly. Sometimes it can be bad for other applications though.

Also, use thick wire. The point of expensive super-pure wire is to lower resistance. Thing is, you can do that way cheaper by getting thicker wires. Just get some super fat ass wire and you're good.

Edit: If it was me, I'd see about buying passive monitors from a pro audio store to use with your receiver. That's where you get a better price-performance ratio IMO. Not PA speakers though, you want studio speakers. For example:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Alesis-Monitor-1-MKII-Passive-Monitors-Pair?sku=603201
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-TRUTH-B2031P-Passive-Monitors-?sku=600604
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/KRK-ST6-2-Way-Passive-Studio-Monitor-each?sku=602270
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Dynaudio-BM5-Passive-Studio-Monitor-Pair?sku=605000
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tannoy-Precision-6-Passive-Studio-Monitors-Pair?sku=602163


One more thing. Speakers with more drivers aren't always better. More drivers = more crossovers = more passive processing = more sound degradation.

And if you can get speakers with ribbon tweeters, they are sexy.

Rigor Mortis

Ok, one MORE thing.

If you listen to speakers to decide which to buy, really try to listen in a quiet space, not in a shop. Also, try to get your hands on an SPL meter and make sure the speakers you're comparing are volume-matched within 0.15dB - like I said, we can only hear volume differences that are >3 dB - but smaller changes can be perceived as sound quality or tone.

In other words, if you don't test right, your ears can lie to you.


FYI, this is one type of SPL meter
http://www.radioshack.com/sm-digital-display-sound-level-meter--pi-2103667.html

Nakatomi2010

I did buy one of those surround sound systems in a box awhile back, it's an old Sony receiver, only does up to Dolby DTS, I've got BluRay/HDDVD now and wouldn't mind something that could do TrueHD Audio, but then my fear is weather or not my speakers could handle it...

My speakers are mounted in a non-surround sound fashion, purely due to apartment design, all three speakers are mounted high on the main wall with the two rear speakers being mounted at the same height but about three feet in front of where we sit...

Also having the HDMI hook ups for easy audio setups would be awesome....

Improvolone

What is your budget for receiver and sound?

By the way, you need a new speaker arrangement. Something better can work, I'm sure. Maybe you can post some pictures so we can help.

Nakatomi2010

It's more of a "work in progress" and planning type phase, no real budget set yet, which is kind of a bonus... I also don't plan on changing EVERYTHING at the same time, maybe the receiver first, or the speakers, what ever makes the biggest improvement would go first though....

The speaker arrangement is as follows..


|-*--*-*-|
|............|
|*........*|
|...___
|

Now, allow me to elaborate on the picture, the *'s represent speakers, the ___ represent the couch, and the |'s represent the wall, as you can see one side of the room has the wall half as long as the other... The ...'s are in there for proper spacing reasons so that the picture comes out properly...

Improvolone

Rears should be behind you, even at your back, never in front of you. You may want to consider speaker stands or ceiling mounts for them. Since I'm not sure of your elevation, your front speakers should all be at the same level ideally as centered with your TV as possible. Subwoofers are not directional, they can go anywhere as long as the bass isn't obstructed.

You can spend $500 on a single speaker, so unless you really have no budget, you need to give us a number.

Rigor Mortis

Improvolone wrote: »

Subwoofers are not directional, they can go anywhere as long as the bass isn't obstructed.

Do be aware that if your subwoofer goes up past 80Hz into the midrange, this is no longer true.


This is why one of the elements of THX certification is an 80Hz crossover, to make sure that the subwoofer is nondirectional.



BTW, if you're rich, bite the $30000 price tag and get a bunch of these: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion++.htm
Review here if you care http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=2&blogId=1

Even if you're not rich, put most of your budget into speakers. Speakers make the biggest difference.

AbsoluteZero

I'd also like to mention that you'd be surprised at how nice a pair of simple shelf speakers can sound when paired with a nice sub-woofer.

On the subject of subs, you are going to want a powered sub woofer. Try to match it to your reciever (that is, if your receiver puts out 100watts per channel, then go for a powered sub woofer that is at least 100 watts). Make SURE your receiver knows you have a sub hooked up to it (a lot of people make this mistake it seems), there should be a menu option such as SUB YES/NO... also make sure the receiver is configured for the appropriate frequency cutoff at which the sub will take over.

Oh, and on a final note. Do NOT stick massive $1000 club speakers into your setup unless you use them for ALL your speakers. Speakers like that will very easily overpower typical center and surrounds.

Nakatomi2010

Right, so speakers before receiver if I'm readig this correctly...

Improvolone

Or at the same time. I mean, you DID say that you don't have a budget...
I've heard people suggest buying all your speakers at the same time from the same company in order to have a common build quality to them. I've also heard others say buy a good center speaker when you can afford it, then fronts, then rears.

Nakatomi2010

Alright, some snooping around on the ol' CCity website and found these... My current speakers are litterally just block speakers, so since these have tweeters on them I'm assuming the quality has to be better, for my PC's speaker setup getting a similar set of speakers seemed to make a difference.... And the price doesn't seem that bad...

I am looking at Wall-Mountable speakers specifically because I've already got the mounts and such in place...

I'm looking at Polk audio mostly because if I remember correctly I think we get employee accomodations by buying their products through them... I'd have to double check though...


I'm also trying to keep a silver color scheme as that is the color of the rest of my equipment...

Rigor Mortis

Nakatomi2010 wrote: »

Alright, some snooping around on the ol' CCity website and found these... My current speakers are litterally just block speakers, so since these have tweeters on them I'm assuming the quality has to be better, for my PC's speaker setup getting a similar set of speakers seemed to make a difference.... And the price doesn't seem that bad...

I am looking at Wall-Mountable speakers specifically because I've already got the mounts and such in place...

I'm looking at Polk audio mostly because if I remember correctly I think we get employee accomodations by buying their products through them... I'd have to double check though...

I'm also trying to keep a silver color scheme as that is the color of the rest of my equipment...

Polk? Not bad. The subwoofer goes a little bit higher in frequency than is ideal but you can set your receiver to fix that I would think. The other specs I see there look pretty good. Efficiency is good, THD is good... Wish they'd publish ALL the specs, but I guess most people wouldn't know what they meant anyways. I like that they give the -3 dB point, that's useful for knowing how to set your equalizer.

FYI, these are better than Bose's Acoustimass line for a tenth of the price 8-)

L*2*G*X

Backing everyone on the NO Bose thing.

A few things I've learned surfing:

-5.1 is plenty unless your room is huge

-watts only count for subwoofers, but then they count!

-THX certified speakers give you a guarantee that they will work nicely together, does not mean you'll like their sound.

-this mofo will give you great surround even if your speakers are not thx certified. Other recievers do this to, but this seems to be the cheapest one. It comes with a mic that will listen to the speakers you have and adjust it's output.

so then you can buy your speakers in parts:

-get a second hand subwoofer. This will allow you to get a bigger, heavier than if you buy new. Get one with a built-in amplifier panel for more wattage.

-actually get everything secondhand. if you have the choice choose the heaviest speakers.

-the mix of subwoofer and front speakers is really important. You need your front speakers to go quiet low. i.e. a woofer is necessary. If you are really diy minded check out full range drivers with a folded transmission tube, else get a pair with woofer and midrange speaker.

-your rear speakers can be very dingy before you'll ever notice. Spend the least on these, midrange sattelites will do.

-center channel needs a tweeter. This is where your conversation comes from, so especially whispering will need high tones.

place in room, let your receiver do the setup. It will match the components as best as it can, but it's unlikely that secondhand speakers will not beat new speakers with the same price.
edit: I'm also convinced bundled 5.1 setups will put another premium another on top of what the speakers are worth, too.

Then, once and IF you get dissatsified with the sound, start updating your components.

again, this is theorethical knowledge, I have to wait till next year to start building my own system...

swift

Just wondering if i could throw a question in here. I have a pioneer surround sound system set up with my 360 which used to work great. However, i've now moved the rear speakers further away and am having a real hard time hearing any detail from behind (like footsteps in GoW). Is there like an audio file or something that i could play through my xbox to help me calibrate the speakers properly? I've tried the built in one but it's not working too great as it sounds fine to me but in game is still off.

ElJeffe

Nakatomi2010 wrote: »

Right, so speakers before receiver if I'm readig this correctly...

Well, yes and no. Your system will always be limited by your weakest component. Pairing $5000 in speakers with a $200 receiver will be a giant waste of money. I've found the following rule of thumb useful. For a given value X:

Front and surround speakers: $X per pair
Center Speaker: $1.5-2X
Subwoofer: 2X
Receiver: 2X

So if you bought a $400 receiver (which'll get you something respectable), you'd want to drop a couple hundred per pair on your fronts and surrounds, $300-400 for your center (which is the single most important speaker, as it's where the dialogue and the most prominent sounds originate), and $400 or so for your sub. Spending dramatically more on any given component probably won't do you much good.

That said, there's nothing wrong with getting one piece of equipment a little nicer than the rest. It'll compel you to keep upgrading. Me, I have components in the above price ranges, except for a nice pair of Paradigm ADP-170s for the surrounds (which are about $500/pair). I picked them up when my old surrounds failed me, and I didn't want to drop money on something chintzy.

Improvolone

As for built in set-up mics, some are good, some are bad. Regardless, an SPL will give you a better reading.

PeregrineFalcon

Improvolone wrote: »

As for built in set-up mics, some are good, some are bad. Regardless, an SPL will give you a better reading.

Personally I haven't found an "auto-setup" function that works as well as just listening and tuning by hand. I'm not a hard-core, spends-$1000-on-cables audiophile, but the auto-calibration features just seemed to fuck things up.

A friend of mine who visited said that I had the first surround setup that didn't piss her off due to poor imaging/reverb/delay, so it passed the important chicks dig it test.

L*2*G*X

PeregrineFalcon wrote: »

A friend of mine who visited said that I had the first surround setup that didn't piss her off due to poor imaging/reverb/delay, so it passed the important chicks dig it test.

sounds like she passed an important test

I have some questions about the center channel, actually.

I know that in older surround systems the center channel is matrixed with the rear channels, but that it's getten more important these days. However, to me it's a bit of a iffy step to take. You're giving up your chance at good stereo playback to get, well, what exactly? Properly placed stereo speakers should be able to give a good center presence.
So I'm not to keen on getting a full-sized center channel speaker. In fact, this is where I want to place my subwoofer, front and center. I'm thinking of building a 'Wicked One' subwoofer with a high crossover, so the center placement is rather important.

What I cannot find information on is how much sound is mixed into the center channel these days. Can I get away with just a sattelite, placed above the screen?

PeregrineFalcon

L*2*G*X wrote: »

PeregrineFalcon wrote: »

A friend of mine who visited said that I had the first surround setup that didn't piss her off due to poor imaging/reverb/delay, so it passed the important chicks dig it test.

sounds like she passed an important test

I have some questions about the center channel, actually.

I know that in older surround systems the center channel is matrixed with the rear channels, but that it's getten more important these days. However, to me it's a bit of a iffy step to take. You're giving up your chance at good stereo playback to get, well, what exactly? Properly placed stereo speakers should be able to give a good center presence.
So I'm not to keen on getting a full-sized center channel speaker. In fact, this is where I want to place my subwoofer, front and center. I'm thinking of building a 'Wicked One' subwoofer with a high crossover, so the center placement is rather important.

What I cannot find information on is how much sound is mixed into the center channel these days. Can I get away with just a sattelite, placed above the screen?

Pretty much all of the dialogue in a 5.1 track is on the center channel. You can do with a satellite, but you'll need something better than you'd use for a rear channel - line up the tweeters of FL-C-FR as close to a horizontal line as possible for the best image, and make sure the front of the horn is lined up with the front of the TV.

Not sure how you're giving up your chance for good stereo playback - if I'm playing a stereo source, the receiver just sends it to FL & FR and ignores C.

L*2*G*X

Much obliged for that.

I'll have to redesign my setup though. One issue is that it will be nigh impossible to get the sub or the center to line up with the front of the tv... Not sure this is the right thread/forum to go into detail though.

PeregrineFalcon

L*2*G*X wrote: »

Much obliged for that.

I'll have to redesign my setup though. One issue is that it will be nigh impossible to get the sub or the center to line up with the front of the tv... Not sure this is the right thread/forum to go into detail though.

You can put the center under the TV if you've no other option - it'll probably make your tweeters out of line, so you'll have to angle it up to compensate.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

ElJeffe

mcdermott wrote: »

I think his point is that if you blow your wad on your center, and cheap out on rears and fronts (ElJeffe, for instance, has the fronts in the "cheapest" category), then you're not going to get great stereo sound for things like music. And a strong center isn't likely to make up for this. If you're using your 5.1 surround system to also play music, you'll probably want to make sure you get a nice set of fronts.

Very true. I use my surround sound exclusively for TV, movies, games, and the like. When I do use it for music, it's one of those XM stations for background noise and I don't care how awesome it sounds.

In general, I wouldn't recommend cheaping out on the fronts - mine only happen to be the weakest speakers because my rears failed me and I wanted to replace them with something nicer. If my fronts fail me, I'll replace them with these, most likely.

L*2*G*X

I actually don't listen to music that much.... But I'll need to wrap my head around whole different concept for sound setup.
I was going to build all my speakers myself, but the information sources deal mainly with stereo setups. I'll have to look for designs for central channel speakers, and dipole sattelites, which is way different than what I had in mind.

So I guess I learned a lot more in this one thread than in half a year of surfing various forums, websites and magazine archives. Thanks Peregrine.

smokmnky

Alright so I'm bumping this older thread cause I'm in the market for a decent surround sound system. I'm not an audiophile by any means but I would like something that is good. Thinking about piecing it together because of my situation. I'm pretty much in the dark when it comes to home theater setups so help me out

Right now I have nothing, just my 360 and my 32' LCD (which is going to be upgraded at some point). I'm also thinking about getting a PS3, mostly for bluray but some games, so I want to get the most out of my sound. As I said above I don't mind buying pieces so I'm thinking maybe right now the receiver and 2 front speakers/sub. Is that the way to do it? Alternately I've been looking at some of the "home theater in a box" setups and they don't seem that bad to me but I'm sure they aren't worth it in the long run.

Oh I'm sure your also wondering budget. I'm thinking $300 or so to start but I don't mind spending more initially if/when you tell me I'm crazy.

maximumzero

I bought a Sony Home Theatre in a Box about 6 months ago for around $200.

Sounds good.

I'm satisfied.

Will buy again.

smokmnky

maximumzero wrote: »

I bought a Sony Home Theatre in a Box about 6 months ago for around $200.

Sounds good.

I'm satisfied.

Will buy again.

Have a link that I can read up on it?

Daemonion

This is all you need:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=88

Improvolone

300 will buy you a receiver that you won't need to throw out in a year because its missing ________.

smokmnky

Improvolone wrote: »

300 will buy you a receiver that you won't need to throw out in a year because its missing ________.

Ok, I'm fine like I said buying it in pieces. Do you have any suggestions for a receiver?

maximumzero

smokmnky wrote: »

maximumzero wrote: »

I bought a Sony Home Theatre in a Box about 6 months ago for around $200.

Sounds good.

I'm satisfied.

Will buy again.

Have a link that I can read up on it?

http://www.productwiki.com/sony-ht-ddw790/

I believe it's discontinued by now. No idea what replaced it.

Improvolone

smokmnky wrote: »

Improvolone wrote: »

300 will buy you a receiver that you won't need to throw out in a year because its missing ________.

Ok, I'm fine like I said buying it in pieces. Do you have any suggestions for a receiver?

Onkyo gets consistant good marks for a budget buck. Read about different models, compare their differences, and decide what you do and do not need for the next few years. When did this, I made sure that my receiver had a good set-up mic, HDMI pass though, and the needed inputs. Your needs may vary.
I would start with www.Cnet.com to find and compare models, then do some deeper research on Amazon.com and AVSforums.com

Nakatomi2010

maximumzero wrote: »

smokmnky wrote: »

maximumzero wrote: »

I bought a Sony Home Theatre in a Box about 6 months ago for around $200.

Sounds good.

I'm satisfied.

Will buy again.

Have a link that I can read up on it?

http://www.productwiki.com/sony-ht-ddw790/

I believe it's discontinued by now. No idea what replaced it.

Hah... that's the model that replaced mine... Came out like a week after I bought mine..

maximumzero

Nakatomi2010 wrote: »

maximumzero wrote: »

smokmnky wrote: »

maximumzero wrote: »

I bought a Sony Home Theatre in a Box about 6 months ago for around $200.

Sounds good.

I'm satisfied.

Will buy again.

Have a link that I can read up on it?

http://www.productwiki.com/sony-ht-ddw790/

I believe it's discontinued by now. No idea what replaced it.

Hah... that's the model that replaced mine... Came out like a week after I bought mine..

It works wonderfully. I actually haven't hooked it back up yet since we've returned from the storm, but I'll have to by Tuesday since Speed Racer will be available.