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Can America be "saved"?
Passerbye
I am much older than you.in Beach CityRegistered User regular
I am much older than you.in Beach CityRegistered User regular
There are many things going wrong in America right now and there are some Americans who are immigrating to other countries rather than staying and trying to change it (from my small amount of knowledge I can't fault them). This has been a subject of considerable discussion (though not "debate") among some of my family and friends. I will briefly outline the subjects which have come up in these discussions, and give background information when relevant.
:arrow: Politicians and voting: Is it possible to get a genuinely good person elected with the current corruption of the political system?
My husband and I are generally of the opinion that if there isn't someone we feel comfortable with voting for running for president (or any other civil-servant position, such as mayor) then we won't vote. As a result, we've typically not voted or have cast for a third-party candidate (for example, this year we're voting for Cynthia McKinney). My parents, on the other hand, view voting as a 'responsibility', therefor if you don't vote, or if you don't vote for someone who's got a real chance of being elected, then you're being irresponsible. I always respond that if you're given 'worse and worser' from the Democrats and Republicans, then why vote for one of them? You just end up with worse or worser.
:arrow: Expanding powerbase of the fundamentalist right.
:arrow: Terrible condition of foreign relations in addition to the fact that neither Obama nor McCain are against invading Iran or for in pulling troops out of Iraq immediately and focusing on Afghanistan.
:arrow: No realistic plans for universal healthcare (we'd rather spent billions on war).
:arrow: 'The Mortgage Crisis' and the fact that the Housing Act isn't working.
Part of why I'm bringing these points up here is because I really don't know much about the details, so I don't want to come to any hard judgments before I learn more. I've noticed many people here in the debate and discourse area who seem to have a good understanding of the current political and social climate, so I would like to ask you about your opinions on the matter. In the Obama campaign especially I've heard terms like 'saving America' and 'making America better'. I ask, can America be "saved"? Is it worth saving? Or is it too late?
:arrow: Politicians and voting: Is it possible to get a genuinely good person elected with the current corruption of the political system?
My husband and I are generally of the opinion that if there isn't someone we feel comfortable with voting for running for president (or any other civil-servant position, such as mayor) then we won't vote. As a result, we've typically not voted or have cast for a third-party candidate (for example, this year we're voting for Cynthia McKinney). My parents, on the other hand, view voting as a 'responsibility', therefor if you don't vote, or if you don't vote for someone who's got a real chance of being elected, then you're being irresponsible. I always respond that if you're given 'worse and worser' from the Democrats and Republicans, then why vote for one of them? You just end up with worse or worser.
:arrow: Expanding powerbase of the fundamentalist right.
:arrow: Terrible condition of foreign relations in addition to the fact that neither Obama nor McCain are against invading Iran or for in pulling troops out of Iraq immediately and focusing on Afghanistan.
:arrow: No realistic plans for universal healthcare (we'd rather spent billions on war).
:arrow: 'The Mortgage Crisis' and the fact that the Housing Act isn't working.
Part of why I'm bringing these points up here is because I really don't know much about the details, so I don't want to come to any hard judgments before I learn more. I've noticed many people here in the debate and discourse area who seem to have a good understanding of the current political and social climate, so I would like to ask you about your opinions on the matter. In the Obama campaign especially I've heard terms like 'saving America' and 'making America better'. I ask, can America be "saved"? Is it worth saving? Or is it too late?
Passerbye on
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I don't think there's a large exodus of people out of the US. There are some. There will always be some. I also think some of your positions are unrealistic.
You want all troops immediately out of Iraq. That's just not physically possible.
You can't openly say you'll never attack Iran, because you never know for sure. If you had concrete evidence that they had WMDs and were prepared to use them and the international community agreed, maybe invading would be the right thing to do (maybe).
There are strides towards universal healthcare. Everything happens in increments.
So there's a housing crisis, its temporary. This is like the dotcom bubble bursting, or the biotech bubble bursting, etc. It happens and isn't exclusive to the US. Europe and parts of Asia are also experiencing this.
As for who to vote for, I won't tell you what to do. That's your choice. I applaud you vor voting for 3rd party candidates if you think they're worth it. But perhaps you should consider that all of politics is a compromise. You will likely never agree with all of the positions of a single candidate. You have to compromise your ideals to what you think is possible in the current climate.
Edit: also, 'some Americans leaving' is what, 5? 10?
- Foreign policy is hard. There’s no guarantee Iran won’t do something foolish, and politics doesn’t handle absolutes well. Bush has already given up and made moves towards a drawdown in Iraq. Obama’s platform/goal is to begin withdrawal within two years. McCain feels that the US should be ‘in it to win it’, if you will. Both have said that Afghanistan needs more attention (which it does).
- My understanding is that McCain isn’t particularly interested in universal healthcare, which doesn’t surprise me as Republicans are very strongly against ‘socialised medicine’. Universal healthcare isn’t currently a realistic option for the US, due to financial issues. Obama’s idea is to use the money saved by pulling out of Iraq to help fund the majority of people who want healthcare. Naturally, if the withdrawal doesn’t work out healthcare will be a lot harder.
- The housing blowup has been coming since the ‘90s, but it took a long time to really hit. The market invariably fixes itself, even though it hurts in the meantime. I’m not sure how either candidate plans to help here.
I don’t know if America can be ‘saved’, as such, because it assumes an extreme view of the future (for good or ill). The US is still the world’s only real superpower, so it’s worth the effort to keep working. There’s something of a downward slide right now, but I doubt the end is very close.
Edit: Things are never as good or as bad as they seem.
Pete Seeger disagrees with you. (I actually asked him)
And um, yes, America can be "saved." The question is only meaningful if you say from what, though. Mediocrity? Television? Anarchy? What?
Congratulations, you are 'THAT' guy.
Nader thanks you for your support.
Point 1: I'm pretty cynical about president stuff, nothing relevant to say.
Point 2: The government works in cycles, we're just in a cycle that you don't happen to agree with. I'm not sure it's as expansive and powerful as you might be implying (by that I mean that you can't even have a voice...hell isn't the makeup of Congress REALLY close)
Point 3: Pulling out of Iraq isn't going to help our relationships with other countries, despite what some of those countries say. At this point in the game we're skating on such thin ice I think doing ANYTHING quickly (like total withdrawal) is going to just make things worse.
Point 4: Universal health care is really going to benefit those who don't have it. The people who have health care and have jobs that give them the health care often don't want universal health care because they're scared it will lower their quality of health care. As a person who has health care, I certainly understand the need for people to have health care, but it doesn't hit me where it hurts so I'm just looking out to make sure my quality doesn't go down. Selfish, but my vote should represent what I need IMO, and we should go with the majority.
Point 5: There are a lot of fucked up mortgage situations right now, and a lot of genuinely "good" people have gotten screwed by the way things are. That said, a tremendous of people who are in bad shape with mortgages have really spread themselves thin and have tried to live a quality of life that REQUIRED things to say the same. When things went a little south shit hit the fan and all of a sudden that mansion isn't something you can pay anymore.
[citation needed]
It's a fact a Dem or Rep are going to be elected, it's a given.
It's wasting a vote that could have been used in stopping someone like Bush from getting into office.
/$0.02
As was pointed out by Matt Stone and Trey Parker, the system is set up in such a way that every election is between a giant douche and turd sandwich, and that won't change because that change would have to come from the ones in power, and they won't betray a system that put them and keeps them in power.
You're never going to get a "perfect" candidate for president, cause presidential candidates have to appeal to a bunch of different people.
America doesn't need to be "saved," whatever that means. There are some assholes in office right now. In a couple months (or, in four or eight years, if the election goes the wrong way) they may be out of office. America needs smart people to start standing up and trying to fix shit, not vote for Cynthia McKinney and wait for salvation.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Secondly, America is far from needing 'saving'. We may not have all the policies you agree with, but we're still doing fine.
Thirdly, I can understand the desire to vote third party. I have so far only voted third party. My biggest issue as far as politics is voting reform, to switch from our current system to something involving runoffs or the 'single transferable vote' or something. But - please, please -
Do not vote for Cynthia McKinney. She. Is. A. Crazy. Person. Take it from someone who lived in her district as a congresswoman, she is an embarrasment to whoever she represents. Vote for any other person or party, just please. Please. Not Cynthia McKinney.
Politics is a strife of interests. If you can't see that the Democratic and Republican parties represent very different interest groups (despite some common ones), then you aren't paying attention.
edit: and if you have to cite fucking south park for their political thoughts, you're in trouble.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I don't really understand how anyone can see Gore/Kerry vs Bush as a bad and badder situation.
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Economics/dp/0028644921/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219951769&sr=8-2
The Market will Provide, Citizen!
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
It was a whole thing with 'Clinton' fatigue or some such and you just had to be there at the time.
Basically, this is what it was like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JSBhI_0at0
It would be "emigrating" if she said "emigrating from the U.S."
"The Complete Idiot's Guide to Economics"? Is that what they're calling The Road to Serfdom now?
Why do people seem to think that Nader "stole" the votes from Gore in 2000? He didn't steal anything, they were the Democrats' votes to lose. It was the Democrats' fault for failing to connect with the voters and getting them to vote for them. It wasn't Nader's fault, it was Gore's/DNC's fault.
Also, regarding universal healthcare, I don't think it's the degradation in quality people are worried about the increased cost. Taxes will go up if such a plan gets implemented, and for people already paying for healthcare, it's simply an extra cost without any benefit to them, only to other people who don't have healthcare. People are not altruistic enough to go for that, especially when the economy is already tanking. That might cynical, but it's realistic.
On another point, any politician who tells you they're going to get us out of Iraq is full of shit. Sure, they may transfer control over to the Iraqis like they say they're doing with certain provinces soon, but it will be in name only and we will still be around to "assist" them in peacekeeping efforts. Like it or not, Bush put us into a situation that we're now stuck in indefinitely, and I'm not expecting that we'll be leaving anytime in my lifetime unless we get forced out.
And I still maintain that both the Democrats and Republicans represent the wealthy elite, at least the ones who gain office. The Democrats have just done a better job of hiding it.
Yeah, THIS to me is the thing that America needs saving from.
We berate people for voting for who they want, and then wonder why voter turnout is so low.
Look. You have one side right now in favor of indefinite commitment, and you have the other side in favor of collaborating with the Iraqis to develop a schedule for withdrawal. There is no scenario where our troops get on planes and are out next week, though. Sorry about that.
Saying it a hundred times doesn't make it any truer. Democrats have their problems, no question. But if you're going to take an honest look at the interests both sides are most accountable to, then drawing this weird equivalency where "they're all rich white guys!" doesn't make any sense. It's lazy and it's wrong.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I think it is telling about the troubles that we do face though. It has now become illogical and sometimes intolerant to stand up for something. A nation handcuffs itself to bad policy on the basis of feelings and acceptance leading to a weakened state. You've got people in the other thread arguing directly against market forces. It doesn't make any sense but it sounds and feels good, so it must be right. *shrug*
There's reasons those guys don't get in the mainstream parties.
It isn't a matter of altruism. Enacting universal health care, coupled with a change in the tax base (liek current Democratic proposals) is basically a "soak the rich" (and the insurance providers) platform. Universal coverage will be cheaper for the majority of Americans than the current situation, when covering the same services.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Is a man not entitled to the sweat off his brow?
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Fucking politicians running the country into the ground.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue that politicians needed to stay out of "slavery", "segregation", or the whole "child labor" thing.
Limiting and abolishing are two different words.